Pope, in interview, laments 'rigidity' of youth who prefer Latin Mass [CWN]

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CuriousMike said:
All this continues to beg the question… What is “rigidity” in the context of the interview with Pope Francis, and this thread?
  • Is the TLM and its attendants the target, or anyone with a strong, unwavering preference for any (valid) Mass?
  • Or is it a word used in a subversive manner?
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IMHO, charity demands the most charitable interpretation, which would be the unwavering preference.

But I can see why people bristle at the use of the word, given how loaded it is.
 
Paganus, I looooove your description of yourself, rigid Catholic 😃
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Paganus:
 
Tantum_ergo said:
That’s just it–we all carry our experiences with us and use them to judge. If we’re lucky/graced enough, we realize it and, without going completely backward and not using them at all, or assuming that just because we think X is the best thing since sliced bread, we have to give Y a thousand times more ‘slack’ because we do not prefer Y to start with, we try to look at things in a balanced fashion.

Now apparently quite a few people have had ‘bad’ experiences with the EF. Either they ‘suffered through them’ and are delighted to give them the 86, or they suffered from friends or relatives who tried to ‘cram it down their throats’, or all the people they knew who attended were insufferable hypocrites (as C.S. Lewis wryly noted, exactly like them themselves). . .and all the OFs they ever attended were so wonderful, perfect, spirit-filled, joyous, and all the adherents were the nicest people evuh. . .and even though they try to picture somebody just like them being at the EF and having the same feelings they do for the OF, they just can’t understand it. It is too foreign.

Of course there are those of us who have suffered the opposite way. Some of us have a hard time imagining the wonderful OF because the only time we see it is on EWTN. . .we have had decades of OFs which have been as ‘flawed’ as those who see the EF and its ‘faults’ think of the EF, and the people have been the same.

But the majority of those who post here, and the majority of those who do like the EF, are not the crazies you have seen or heard of from your aunt Rosabel. And the majority of those who like the OF are not the ‘crazies’ mentioned supposedly by rad trads.

In the words of Rodney King, "Why can’t we all just get along?"
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The words in bold most definitely! We have WAY bigger problems in our world today than bickering over which mass we attend. This is, I’m sure, exactly what our Holy Father was getting at. We worry too much over the details. Why should it matter which valid mass we attend? Exactly! It doesn’t. Meanwhile people are dying from war, terrorism, religious and racial hatred, starvation, and a general culture of death in which we live. We have WAY more important matters to attend to…
 
Well, war, poverty, hatred, are all certainly important.
But. . .and I know this might raise some hackles. . .liturgy is important too.

We don’t have to attend ONLY to war, poverty, and hatred. We can attend to liturgy too. These things aren’t in competition.

If attending an EF and an OF are though equally valid and in the grand scheme of things not important big issues, though, I wonder why it seems that so few on this thread are talking of the EF being superior (a charge that has been leveled at its adherents), and so many speak of the OF being superior. . .superior to the point that almost no reason for preference of the EF is considered ‘good enough’.

You like Latin? You shouldn’t. People should have the vernacular. It’s so much better for them to understand what they hear.

You like the Mass itself? You shouldn’t. The priest TURNS AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE. How rude! You don’t ‘fully participate’ like in the OF. You can’t HEAR the priest. You can’t understand him. Nobody is paying attention. Everybody just does their own thing. You aren’t in real ‘communion’.
And don’t even start on non essentials. “They make women wear veils, a patristic symbol of oppression”. “they don’t believe woman should wear pants”. They’re like robots. They are ‘holier than thou’. They are RIGID.

And since unless you are lucky enough to live in a large city which has an EF community, you do have to drive some distance at least, “Well, there you are. You have a perfectly good OF Mass, several of them, closer to you. How DARE you foster climate change when Pope Francis told you to stop wasting gas. Go to the OF and be happy!”

For all the anecdotes of the toxic trads and the rigidity, I see far, far more rigidity in proclaiming that people SHOULD GO TO THE OF as opposed to the EF.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Well, war, poverty, hatred, are all certainly important.
But. . .and I know this might raise some hackles. . .liturgy is important too.

We don’t have to attend ONLY to war, poverty, and hatred. We can attend to liturgy too. These things aren’t in competition.

If attending an EF and an OF are though equally valid and in the grand scheme of things not important big issues, though, I wonder why it seems that so few on this thread are talking of the EF being superior (a charge that has been leveled at its adherents), and so many speak of the OF being superior. . .superior to the point that almost no reason for preference of the EF is considered ‘good enough’.

You like Latin? You shouldn’t. People should have the vernacular. It’s so much better for them to understand what they hear.

You like the Mass itself? You shouldn’t. The priest TURNS AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE. How rude! You don’t ‘fully participate’ like in the OF. You can’t HEAR the priest. You can’t understand him. Nobody is paying attention. Everybody just does their own thing. You aren’t in real ‘communion’.
And don’t even start on non essentials. “They make women wear veils, a patristic symbol of oppression”. “they don’t believe woman should wear pants”. They’re like robots. They are ‘holier than thou’. They are RIGID.

And since unless you are lucky enough to live in a large city which has an EF community, you do have to drive some distance at least, “Well, there you are. You have a perfectly good OF Mass, several of them, closer to you. How DARE you foster climate change when Pope Francis told you to stop wasting gas. Go to the OF and be happy!”

For all the anecdotes of the toxic trads and the rigidity, I see far, far more rigidity in proclaiming that people SHOULD GO TO THE OF as opposed to the EF.
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Maybe people are just sick of hearing about the Mass in OF described like this from a self-proclaimed “rigid Catholic”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/report.php?p=14291257
 
M-Dent said:
Thankfully Fr. Pokorsky’s experience seems a thing of the past!

Carl Olson’s notes impressions he had of the terms used.
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Yes, I think that the problems Fr. Pokorsky describes in connection with seminarian discernment are pretty much gone. The Carl Olson article does provide a pretty good discussion of the use of the term ‘rigidity’ as applied to the liturgy.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Well, war, poverty, hatred, are all certainly important.
But. . .and I know this might raise some hackles. . .liturgy is important too.

We don’t have to attend ONLY to war, poverty, and hatred. We can attend to liturgy too. These things aren’t in competition.

If attending an EF and an OF are though equally valid and in the grand scheme of things not important big issues, though, I wonder why it seems that so few on this thread are talking of the EF being superior (a charge that has been leveled at its adherents), and so many speak of the OF being superior. . .superior to the point that almost no reason for preference of the EF is considered ‘good enough’.

You like Latin? You shouldn’t. People should have the vernacular. It’s so much better for them to understand what they hear.

You like the Mass itself? You shouldn’t. The priest TURNS AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE. How rude! You don’t ‘fully participate’ like in the OF. You can’t HEAR the priest. You can’t understand him. Nobody is paying attention. Everybody just does their own thing. You aren’t in real ‘communion’.
And don’t even start on non essentials. “They make women wear veils, a patristic symbol of oppression”. “they don’t believe woman should wear pants”. They’re like robots. They are ‘holier than thou’. They are RIGID.

And since unless you are lucky enough to live in a large city which has an EF community, you do have to drive some distance at least, “Well, there you are. You have a perfectly good OF Mass, several of them, closer to you. How DARE you foster climate change when Pope Francis told you to stop wasting gas. Go to the OF and be happy!”

For all the anecdotes of the toxic trads and the rigidity, I see far, far more rigidity in proclaiming that people SHOULD GO TO THE OF as opposed to the EF.
Click to expand...
Woah calm down. No one ever said that the EF was somehow “less” than the OF, or that it isn’t good for the Church to have various liturgy options (and with Eastern Rite Churches there are even more. 😉 ) And I certainly know better than to discuss veils or women’s clothing options on CAF! :eek: We were just saying that there were far more important things to concern ourselves with than what liturgies we attend. As long as it’s in a Catholic Church in communion with Rome, it’s valid, let’s move on to more important things. If you can’t move on, that might be saying something. Just like the Pope said. 🤷
 
ShrodingersCat said:
Here is an example of rigidity:

I know a family with teenage kids that drive for over an hour every day to go to Latin mass rather than the vernacular right beside them. Given that the masses are 45 mins, that is a round trip of three hours every day. These kids are in school…
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The only problem I see is a fellow Catholic would have a problem with that kind of faith.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
If attending an EF and an OF are though equally valid and in the grand scheme of things not important big issues, though, I wonder why it seems that so few on this thread are talking of the EF being superior (a charge that has been leveled at its adherents), and so many speak of the OF being superior. . .superior to the point that almost no reason for preference of the EF is considered ‘good enough’.
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I don’t recall anyone saying anything about the OF being superior to the EF. They are of the same Roman rite after all.

Has anyone on this thread even made criticisms of the EF itself?

What is concerning to me is there have been multiple people, and I’m not just speaking about this thread, who have not just dismissed what the Holy Father has said, but, thinking the Pope’s criticism applies to themselves, seem to have decided it would be better to be “rigid” than to listen to the Successor of St. Peter. I find that problematic.
 
collegeathlete said:
I don’t recall anyone saying anything about the OF being superior to the EF. They are of the same Roman rite after all.

Has anyone on this thread even made criticisms of the EF itself?

What is concerning to me is there have been multiple people, and I’m not just speaking about this thread, who have not just dismissed what the Holy Father has said, but, thinking the Pope’s criticism applies to themselves, seem to have decided it would be better to be “rigid” than to listen to the Successor of St. Peter. I find that problematic.
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Frankly, I have been a witness to the underlying issues since the 1970s. The criticisms I hear against the Successor of Saint Peter in the here and now well and truly echo the reprehensible behaviour of those who so badly treated a Pope who was a saint sent by God to lead the Church. As I read certain comments in this thread, the point of Pope Francis is illustrated.
 
Usige said:
No one seems to think twice about the Anglican use despite the fact that it also is part of the Latin Church and people often don’t interact with the geographic OF parish either.
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Having had the occasion to work with both groups – clergy and laity – I don’t find them comparable at all. In terms of dispositions and attitudes, I found them to be poles apart.

The clergy and laity, going all the way back to the days of the first granting of the pastoral provision in favour of the Anglican Use, were exemplary. I am delighted that the Americans now have, as Ordinary, a Bishop. He is a most gifted ecclesiastic.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Well, war, poverty, hatred, are all certainly important.
But. . .and I know this might raise some hackles. . .liturgy is important too.

We don’t have to attend ONLY to war, poverty, and hatred. We can attend to liturgy too. These things aren’t in competition.

If attending an EF and an OF are though equally valid and in the grand scheme of things not important big issues, though, I wonder why it seems that so few on this thread are talking of the EF being superior (a charge that has been leveled at its adherents), and so many speak of the OF being superior. . .superior to the point that almost no reason for preference of the EF is considered ‘good enough’.

You like Latin? You shouldn’t. People should have the vernacular. It’s so much better for them to understand what they hear.

You like the Mass itself? You shouldn’t. The priest TURNS AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE. How rude! You don’t ‘fully participate’ like in the OF. You can’t HEAR the priest. You can’t understand him. Nobody is paying attention. Everybody just does their own thing. You aren’t in real ‘communion’.
And don’t even start on non essentials. “They make women wear veils, a patristic symbol of oppression”. “they don’t believe woman should wear pants”. They’re like robots. They are ‘holier than thou’. They are RIGID.

And since unless you are lucky enough to live in a large city which has an EF community, you do have to drive some distance at least, “Well, there you are. You have a perfectly good OF Mass, several of them, closer to you. How DARE you foster climate change when Pope Francis told you to stop wasting gas. Go to the OF and be happy!”

For all the anecdotes of the toxic trads and the rigidity, I see far, far more rigidity in proclaiming that people SHOULD GO TO THE OF as opposed to the EF.
Click to expand...
Surely you must be kidding.
I don’t reall anyone saying any of that. Around here or in my parish.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Frankly, I have been a witness to the underlying issues since the 1970s. The criticisms I hear against the Successor of Saint Peter in the here and now well and truly echo the reprehensible behaviour of those who so badly treated a Pope who was a saint sent by God to lead the Church. As I read certain comments in this thread, the point of Pope Francis is illustrated.
Click to expand...
Well The successor of Peter may be issued a formal act of correction. ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-burke-on-amoris-laetitia-dubia-tremendous-division-warrants-action
 
I’m a bit baffled by this. Is this something that is peculiar to Argentina or perhaps Latin America generally?

Possibly some who prefer the TLM are “rigid”. Lots of people are “rigid” and in various ways.

I like the TLM and sometimes attend. I also like the NO, including one parish I attend where the convert daughter of a Baptist preacher plays the hammer dulcimer at Communion.

This might mark me as awful, but I don’t find the Latin difficult. It’s a beautiful language, and if you’re not following something, there is always the missal translation. There is something about Latin that I just can’t well describe, but it imparts an ageless, spaceless quality to the Mass. I feel the same way about the Greek Kyrie. It’s our link to the Eastern churches, a reminder that we were once one. I think it’s beautiful and inspiring.

I personally don’t believe people were all that baffled by the Latin. I think people knew a lot of it. I still do.

And it does not trouble me in the least if the priest is facing the altar away from me. I’m not consecrating the Host. I’m not the one who is the center of it all. I’m okay with the priest facing the congregation, but I don’t see why it’s awful if he isn’t.

I do think some young people have “gone traditional” as a way of finding their bearings in a baffling world.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Well, war, poverty, hatred, are all certainly important.
But. . .and I know this might raise some hackles. . .liturgy is important too.

We don’t have to attend ONLY to war, poverty, and hatred. We can attend to liturgy too. These things aren’t in competition.

If attending an EF and an OF are though equally valid and in the grand scheme of things not important big issues, though, I wonder why it seems that so few on this thread are talking of the EF being superior (a charge that has been leveled at its adherents), and so many speak of the OF being superior. . .superior to the point that almost no reason for preference of the EF is considered ‘good enough’.

You like Latin? You shouldn’t. People should have the vernacular. It’s so much better for them to understand what they hear.

You like the Mass itself? You shouldn’t. The priest TURNS AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE. How rude! You don’t ‘fully participate’ like in the OF. You can’t HEAR the priest. You can’t understand him. Nobody is paying attention. Everybody just does their own thing. You aren’t in real ‘communion’.
And don’t even start on non essentials. “They make women wear veils, a patristic symbol of oppression”. “they don’t believe woman should wear pants”. They’re like robots. They are ‘holier than thou’. They are RIGID.

And since unless you are lucky enough to live in a large city which has an EF community, you do have to drive some distance at least, “Well, there you are. You have a perfectly good OF Mass, several of them, closer to you. How DARE you foster climate change when Pope Francis told you to stop wasting gas. Go to the OF and be happy!”

For all the anecdotes of the toxic trads and the rigidity, I see far, far more rigidity in proclaiming that people SHOULD GO TO THE OF as opposed to the EF.
Click to expand...
👍👍👍
 
Giuseppesiri58 said:
Well The successor of Peter may be issued a formal act of correction. ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-burke-on-amoris-laetitia-dubia-tremendous-division-warrants-action
Click to expand...
Actually, I think the gathering of the College in consistory in these days, very far from the course of action in your post, will instead give opportunity for the Holy Father and the rest of the Cardinals to help those members of the College who are having issues of comprehending and who manifest need of a strong fraternal assistance in the present moment.
 
Convert_in_99 said:
Woah calm down. No one ever said that the EF was somehow “less” than the OF, or that it isn’t good for the Church to have various liturgy options (and with Eastern Rite Churches there are even more. 😉 ) And I certainly know better than to discuss veils or women’s clothing options on CAF! :eek: We were just saying that there were far more important things to concern ourselves with than what liturgies we attend. As long as it’s in a Catholic Church in communion with Rome, it’s valid, let’s move on to more important things. If you can’t move on, that might be saying something. Just like the Pope said. 🤷
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I see. It isn’t important to you, so I should simply move on, lest I prove myself one of those nasty rigid people. Well that’s all right. Personally I think this thread has done a great job in pointing out rigidity and it might not be where many thought it was. So thank you, my dear, I shall move on. I wish you well and hope you will join me in prayer for Pope Francis and all the Faithful.
 
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Tantum_ergo:
I see. It isn’t important to you, so I should simply move on, lest I prove myself one of those nasty rigid people. Well that’s all right. Personally I think this thread has done a great job in pointing out rigidity and it might not be where many thought it was. So thank you, my dear, I shall move on. I wish you well and hope you will join me in prayer for Pope Francis and all the Faithful.

Wow. Why the hostility? I was simply explaining the possible reasoning behind the Holy Father’s statement as is the subject of this thread. :confused:
 
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