Pope suggests Trump: not Christian

  • Thread starter Thread starter ringil
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Illegal immigration cannot be stopped unless the US is decisive about it. The wall hurts no one.
Hello queenofheartscv,

No country can prevent illegal immigration without totally shutting down immigration…even then even if the entire USA is walled off it probably would not prevent illegal immigration. The Pope has asked for Christians to do what they can to help the refugees. I consider the fact that since 2001 that the USA has taken in almost 1 million refugees…and reportedly none of these folks have become terrorists. If the Arab countries Jordan and Lebanon are taking in refugees which immensely increase their respective populations we in the USA ought to do the Christian thing and take in some refugees maybe 1 million over ten years which would increase our population by a tiny fraction.
 
If you go back and read all the posts here, a lot of people on this thread believe the Pope is against the wall-building, which is why we are having this discussion. You don’t think so, and that’s also part of the confusion. What exactly does the Pope mean?
ncregister.com/daily-news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome/#ixzz40YNMoEC9

I can only go by what the Pope actually said. From the link above, here’s the question by the reporter and the Pope’s response:
Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican, Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?
Pope Francis: Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as “animal politicus.” At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don’t know. I’ll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.
(1) Pope Francis did not make a blanket statement of being against building walls. He said if you build walls without building bridges is un-Christian.

(2) Pope Francis did not advise to vote or not vote for such a person who was in favor of the wall described in the question as he did not want to get involved in that.

(3) Pope Francis said “only that this man is not Christian if he said things like that” and that he would give the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding point (3), the questioner said “he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera”. Pope Francis was addressing that someone who holds that position would not be Christian. I agree with the Pope that such a person would not be Christian. However, did Donald Trump say he wants to separate families? I don’t think so.
 
IMHO, I believe that many Catholics feel alienated by this Pope.

He only talks about the poor, 24/7. He seems to have nothing to say to those middle class and affluent Catholics that support the Church and carry her forward, and we need to hear from him. He is an important voice, especially in these confusing and dangerous times, when middle class people are so financially and morally stressed out and feeling so shaky about the future of the West. He seems to be very one-dimensional, and unable to speak to the whole flock.

I believe if he was more balanced, comments like the one we are discussing here, wouldn’t become such a major issue…
I, too, think a lot of Catholics find him off-putting.

But I don’t know that it’s because he talks about the poor all the time. The Church has always had that, and it needs to be said over and over again.

Where it gets problematic, particularly for some, is when his statements seem to be endorsements of political points of view of a secular nature. One of the real difficulties in understanding this Pope is that media headlnes and articles selectively quote him in order to make it appear he supports some political approach or other, when he does not. I don’t think the liberal media, which is largely oppositional to the Church intends to help out the evangelicals by misquoting or misconstruing the Pope, but they clearly do.
 
As for the refugee crisis, I support foreign aid and the like, but I have trouble agreeing with the idea that we should allow tens of thousands of Muslims into the United States. It seems like assimilation might be a problem. Also, would refugees respect our nation’s faith? Probably not.
 
Hello queenofheartscv,

No country can prevent illegal immigration without totally shutting down immigration…even then even if the entire USA is walled off it probably would not prevent illegal immigration. The Pope has asked for Christians to do what they can to help the refugees. I consider the fact that since 2001 that the USA has taken in almost 1 million refugees…and reportedly none of these folks have become terrorists. If the Arab countries Jordan and Lebanon are taking in refugees which immensely increase their respective populations we in the USA ought to do the Christian thing and take in some refugees maybe 1 million over ten years which would increase our population by a tiny fraction.
I believe the failure to reasonably regulate immigration will ultimately result in no immigration. If political correctness leads to the importation of Islamic radical terrorists, all immigration will be tarred with the same brush and the people will demand that immigration cease. That’s exactly why a lot of people like what Trump has said. A significant number of people in this country want it to stop altogether.

And there certainly have been terrorists brought in or allowed to stay under refugee programs, including the Tsarnaev brothers. (came here on tourist visas, then allowed to stay as asserted refugees) The concentrations of Somalis in the upper Midwest came here under refugee status (and who in Somalia is NOT a refugee from some terror group or another) and terror cells have been found among them.

What I find terrible is that this government will not allow Middle Eastern Christians refugee status when they clearly are just that, but will grant it to people whom ISIS itself claims includes terrorist infiltrators.
 
IMHO, I believe that many Catholics feel alienated by this Pope.

He only talks about the poor, 24/7. He seems to have nothing to say to those middle class and affluent Catholics that support the Church and carry her forward, and we need to hear from him. He is an important voice, especially in these confusing and dangerous times, when middle class people are so financially and morally stressed out and feeling so shaky about the future of the West. He seems to be very one-dimensional, and unable to speak to the whole flock.

I believe if he was more balanced, comments like the one we are discussing here, wouldn’t become such a major issue…
I think he also focuses too much on the negative things some Christians are doing. Not enough on the good things. I do think sinful ways need to be addressed and rooted out, but really, the Catholic Church does a great deal for the poor. Isn’t the Catholic Church the largest charity in the world? He needs to focus more on building up the Christian community, instead he seems to tear it apart.

He could have left the question as, “The Gospel teaches us to reach out to the poor.” (positive) rather than “a man who says that is not a Christian.” (negative). Who is he to judge the soul?
 
I think he also focuses too much on the negative things some Christians are doing. Not enough on the good things. I do think sinful ways need to be addressed and rooted out, but really, the Catholic Church does a great deal for the poor. Isn’t the Catholic Church the largest charity in the world? He needs to focus more on building up the Christian community, instead he seems to tear it apart.

He could have left the question as, “The Gospel teaches us to reach out to the poor.” (positive) rather than “a man who says that is not a Christian.” (negative). Who is he to judge the soul?
Amen! 👍
 
Trump missed a golden opportunity. He could have AGREED with Pope Francis and spun the conversation around to the importance of controlling immigration. I speak in political terms of course.
The reaction he gave says a lot about his character.
Better yet, he could have joined in support of the Pope’s mission to Mexico and offered to assist those there in rooting out corruption and making the country safe for all. Sure, it would have been dependent on having at least a few good leaders there willing to take assistance, but as you said, his character does not allow for agreement as a first choice. He is what my Okie relative would have called “contrary”.
 
Yup. He was baited, he took the bait.

Will this change Catholic minds? Most US Catholics do not even believe in some Magesterial teachings, so why would they take the prudential opinionof the Pope based on a loaded question?
Maybe they will just call the teaching “prudential opinion” like the conservatives are doing whenever they want to dissent. Again, Jesus. Pope Francis is just paraphrasing Jesus. And again, and again, and again, if the actual principle is such a prudential opinion, where are the US bishops that supports our Machiavellian immigration policy?
 
Reagan’s war on drugs has been lost in Mexico.

The drug cartels run that country now. The border is just one big smuggling operation.
 
IMHO, I believe that many Catholics feel alienated by this Pope.

He only talks about the poor, 24/7. He seems to have nothing to say to those middle class and affluent Catholics that support the Church and carry her forward, and we need to hear from him. He is an important voice, especially in these confusing and dangerous times, when middle class people are so financially and morally stressed out and feeling so shaky about the future of the West. He seems to be very one-dimensional, and unable to speak to the whole flock.

I believe if he was more balanced, comments like the one we are discussing here, wouldn’t become such a major issue…
Oh gosh. The rich are feeling left out? I do remember when the founder of Home Depot issued a warning.
talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ken-langone-pope-francis
 
Woman whose son was tortured and killed by illegal says, “the Pope doesn’t care about me.”

breitbart.com/big-government/2016/02/18/exclusive-mom-whose-son-tortured-death-illegal-endorses-trump-says-pope-doesnt-care/
This woman gave one of the all time dumbest statements ever. That sentence is so incredibly stupid an illogical, I should not even need to explain why.

Why is any Catholic here posting links to such ignorant, insulting, anti-catholic sentiment? Do you really not see the ignorance, or do you adhere to your politics over your faith? This is a question I think many need to consider this election cycle.

The Pope does not care about someone being tortured and murdered? And “Catholics” are spreading this manure.

Yes, this is running me hot. I am tired of the lies and slanders from the mouth of the Satan through posters here and onto this website.
 
Maybe they will just call the teaching “prudential opinion” like the conservatives are doing whenever they want to dissent. Again, Jesus. Pope Francis is just paraphrasing Jesus. And again, and again, and again, if the actual principle is such a prudential opinion, where are the US bishops that supports our Machiavellian immigration policy?
I think this misses the mark. The Reuters reporter asked the Pope a stacked-deck question that contained misstatements about Trump. Even then, the Pope gave a nuanced answer ("…walls without bridges". Trump proposes “bridges”) even though the reporter carefully neglected to mention Trump’s “great big door” for immigrant admission.

Unfortunately, this whole thing is spun to the point of unrecognizability. Leftist media do this a lot to the Pope, trying to falsely enlist him as a partner in their policies.
 
This woman gave one of the all time dumbest statements ever. That sentence is so incredibly stupid an illogical, I should not even need to explain why.

Why is any Catholic here posting links to such ignorant, insulting, anti-catholic sentiment?
Why? Because the media is making the Pope look uncaring to people like her when I’m sure he isn’t, that’s why. The Reuters reporter clearly lied to the Pope about what Trump has said. The Pope deflected it, tentatively indicating suspicion of the representation. But for many in the anti-Catholic media, the ideology is the thing, regardless of the damage it may do.
 
A point few ever raise.

Where is our migrant problem with all the other nations in the world? Across which border are the Europeans, Russians, Ausies, Kiwis, Africans, Chinese, Japanese, etc., pouring over by the thousands?

Oh, wait, they are not pouring over our border–that distinction belongs to Mexico.

I do recall, in history, that many Europeans poured into our country in the late 1800s and early 1900s–many of those were poor and had nothing when they came here. We made no effort to build a wall in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean to stop them–we welcomed them with open arms. Does anyone doubt that those people would have still come here even if we did not welcome them? They were fleeing horrible conditions. Forward to today: we no longer receive Europeans as we did back then. Why is that? It is because the European nations now do a good job of caring for their own.

Like it or not, Mexico is our neighbor–building a wall will certainly slow down the crossings, and the USA has every right to protect the nation. However, this will not end until Mexico starts caring for its own in a way that stops its citizens from needing to come here, just as European nations recovered and took care of their own.

The solution is not a wall. The solution is to look at Mexico as our neighbor and to start doing everything we can to help them care for themselves, without need to flee to the USA. Only then, will this problem conclude, and that is the only way it will conclude well.

We spend trillions on wars and nation building, and we lose thousands of lives in doing the same–but we never do the same for our own neighbor.

Do you not understand? Mexicans should NOT want to flee here–they should have to be faced with no choice but to flee here to help care for their families. That must be fixed, and until it is, this problem will not go away no matter how many walls we build.

The Pope knows all this–he knows walls only lock people in and out, they do not solve any real problems. I believe he wants the most powerful and most blessed nation in the world to work hard to fix this the right way. We must help lift Mexico up so its people no longer need to come here–barring that, this will not end.

I have heard many people say they don’t like to when the Mexican act as if they don’t want to be American–well, hint: they don’t. They want to live in Mexico, but they cannot have a life there. They appreciate being able to find what they need here–but they long for their own land. That is not terribly hard to understand.

Put yourself on the other side of that wall–would you find a way to help your family, or would you just give up and die?

Put yourself on the wrong side of the Berlin wall and your spouse and kids managed to get to the other side where life is so much better–would you not do almost anything to join them?

Think of how proud so many people were of Ronald Reagan when he said, “Tear down this wall!” Yet, now, we find ourselves fighting to be able to put up our own wall. Sure, I know the circumstances are different, but there are many similarities.

There are better and more humane ways to treat people. That is what the Pope is trying to get us to realize.
 
😦

I agree with you.
I think the only person in the race actually involved in war is Hillary Clinton, and she voted for war in Iraq.

People said the same mean things about Ronald Reagan dropping a nuclear weapon, that didn’t work out.

Trump is just like Reagan.
 
I, too, think a lot of Catholics find him off-putting.

But I don’t know that it’s because he talks about the poor all the time. The Church has always had that, and it needs to be said over and over again.

Where it gets problematic, particularly for some, is when his statements seem to be endorsements of political points of view of a secular nature. One of the real difficulties in understanding this Pope is that media headlnes and articles selectively quote him in order to make it appear he supports some political approach or other, when he does not. I don’t think the liberal media, which is largely oppositional to the Church intends to help out the evangelicals by misquoting or misconstruing the Pope, but they clearly do.
I have an idea that the Papal Conclave will be a little more wary of electing any left-leaning popes in the future.
Just like the rhetoric and confrontational rhetoric of Trump is ‘infotaining’ and is therefore profitable for the media to cover, the pope tends to engage at that same low level of brass-knuckle politics that the media absolutely loves to cover. It has the drawing power of reality television, and the clash of personalities at the highest levels makes this absolutely delicious.

That does not make the pope any less Catholic of course. It is just that most modern popes would not dream of making the Chair of Peter into a bully pulpit for their own political ideals. In leftism however, the personal is political. There is no such thing as a separation of the religious and the political spheres. Political ideals are believed in as essential elements of the religion.
 
Trump really must be like Reagan, those kinds of remarks were said about Ronald Reagan.

Trump cares about Americans.

I’m afraid with freshmen senators like Rubio, they’ll drop a nuclear bomb on someone.
 
Where it gets problematic, particularly for some, is when his statements seem to be endorsements of political points of view of a secular nature.
This is some serious misreading of the Pope and his comments. Nothing he’s said is an endorsement of a secular political perspective. His comments reflect on and connect with Church teaching at every turn.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top