Pope's Latin mass plans spark concern

[BobCatholic]

They never ceased holding the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church after 1970 … ever. It is the modern church that dumped these practices.

Translation into English: The gates of hell have prevailed…The gates of hell have prevailed…The gates of hell have prevailed…The gates of hell have prevailed…The gates of hell have prevailed…The gates of hell have prevailed…The gates of hell have prevailed…

Typical SSPX propaganda, to which I reply “Yarmulkes for sale, get your Yarmulkes here…”

 

[LilyM]

Unfinished:

No, you have it backwards. The schismatics are mimicing the tradtional latin rite that is still being celebrated, under indult, in full communion with the Church.

Amen - there are plenty of High Anglicans that have retained things like the use of incense, the Rosary, priestly vestments and plenty of other outward paraphernalia of Catholicism.

Full communion with Rome is full communion with Rome is full communion with Rome. The SSPX is NOT in full communion with Rome. Archbishop Lefebvre is NOT the Rock on which Christ founded his church, and has placed himself above and has separated himself and his followers from that Rock.

Something that Saint Bernadette, the children of Fatima and all the other seers never in their wildest dreams presumed to do. When was the last time you heard of the seers of Fatima saying that a certain ritual of the Mass was preferable to another?

The church I attend doesn’t celebrate Mass in Latin, however it DOES offer sacraments that are both valid and licit. As the song goes ‘ain’t nothing like the real thing!’

It beats any amount of window-dressing and play-acting of licity and/or validity that Anglicans and SSPX-ers can do.

 

[BobCatholic]

The SSPX is NOT in full communion with Rome. Archbishop Lefebvre is NOT the Rock on which Christ founded his church, and has placed himself above and has separated himself and his followers from that Rock.

And built another Church of the Holy Mirror.

Something that Saint Bernadette, the children of Fatima and all the other seers never in their wildest dreams presumed to do. When was the last time you heard of the seers of Fatima saying that a certain ritual of the Mass was preferable to another?

Amen. How many saints said “OK, let’s worship the mirror instead of listening to the Church!”

Zero.

However, we’ve got plenty of others who said this. Korah. Marcion. Luther. Zwingli. Calvin. Lefebvre.

 

[Richardols]

Amen - there are plenty of High Anglicans that have retained things like the use of incense, the Rosary, priestly vestments and plenty of other outward paraphernalia of Catholicism.

Full communion with Rome is full communion with Rome is full communion with Rome. The SSPX is NOT in full communion with Rome.

Absolutely. The schismatic “priests” can parade around in fron of their “altars” and say the old words of consecration, but they are no more effective than that new female head of the Episcopalian Church saying the Mass.

Archbishop Lefebvre is NOT the Rock on which Christ founded his church, and has placed himself above and has separated himself and his followers from that Rock.

They are dissenters, no less dissenters than modernist priests are dissenters.

The church I attend doesn’t celebrate Mass in Latin, however it DOES offer sacraments that are both valid and licit. As the song goes ‘ain’t nothing like the real thing!’

In my diocese, I can hear legitimate and valid Tridentine Masses, the Novus Ordo in English, Spanish, and Vietnamese, and sometimes in Latin.

It beats any amount of window-dressing and play-acting of licity and/or validity that Anglicans and SSPX-ers can do.

There’s a SSPX “Chapel” or “Temple” or “Ziggurat” or whatever they want to call it in the next town 15 miles away, and those who reject Christ’s Church and his Vicar are welcome to go and watch those men “going through the motions” down there.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Absolutely. The schismatic “priests” can parade around in fron of their “altars” and say the old words of consecration, but they are no more effective than that new female head of the Episcopalian Church saying the Mass.
They are dissenters, no less dissenters than modernist priests are dissenters.
In my diocese, I can hear legitimate and valid Tridentine Masses, the Novus Ordo in English, Spanish, and Vietnamese, and sometimes in Latin.
There’s a SSPX “Chapel” or “Temple” or “Ziggurat” or whatever they want to call it in the next town 15 miles away, and those who reject Christ’s Church and his Vicar are welcome to go and watch those men “going through the motions” down there.

It’s important that we be precise. Though the bishops of the SSPX ARE schismatic and the priests MAY be schismatic (certainly they are suspended ad divinis), the Mass they offer is valid. It’s illicit, but it’s valid. They are able to confect the Holy Sacrifice, so they’re not just going through the motions (they’re going through rebellion and dissent, as you rightly say) as we are bound to believe the Anglicans are. The SSPX’s orders are as valid as ours, as valid as those of the Orthodox.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

estesbob;1633722:

He did. He instructed Pope Pius V to preserve it and he canonized it with QP. I guess you would have to ask Pope Paul and Pope John Paul II why they didn’t respect God talking through their predecessor.

Pope Saint Pius V did not have the authority to bind his successors on matters of discipline, which is what the form of the Mass is. Quo Prium, in that particular regard, was not infallible except insofar as to guarantee that the Pian Mass would not lead the faithful into impiety (Trent anathematized anyone who said that the Church could propose to the faithful a liturgy that could lead them away from God, which, by the way, would include the Novus Ordo Missae). So, God “tallking” doesn’t apply here in the least, insofar as the Church understands God “talking.”

 

[giuseppeTO]

The church I attend doesn’t celebrate Mass in Latin, however it DOES offer sacraments that are both valid and licit. As the song goes ‘ain’t nothing like the real thing!’

You’ve got to be kidding, Lily. What planet is it that you live on again? Check out the Liturgy board. Most of what I have seen in the Novus Ordo wouldn’t even pass for Protestant, let alone Catholic. What you do in your church would most likely make Unitarians cringe.

And while sit in your happy-clappy Novus Ordo Mass and profess you are not in “schism” while the majority of your congragants contracept themselves into obscurity and vote to empower “pro-choice” politicians (not in schism, that’s a laugh), we will pray our rosaries (that is a string of beads Catholics use as a devotional to the Blessed Mother) and gain indulgences (I’ll leave that one to you to look up).

 

[giuseppeTO]

When was the last time you heard of the seers of Fatima saying that a certain ritual of the Mass was preferable to another?.

I am certain they had a problem with the Mass of Martin Luther, which is what you celebrate in the Novus Ordo.

The prediction of the coming of the sacramental abuse in the Novus Ordo is probably the third secret that the Popes have refused to release.

 

[giuseppeTO]

giuseppeTO;1634263:

Pope Saint Pius V did not have the authority to bind his successors on matters of discipline, which is what the form of the Mass is. Quo Prium, in that particular regard, was not infallible except insofar as to guarantee that the Pian Mass would not lead the faithful into impiety "

He most certainly can and he did.

Quo Primam was a measure taken against Cranmer’s Mass (which is now the Novus Ordo) and the requirement that Engish priests say the new venacular Mass, along with its other changes. That is why Pius canonized it.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Absolutely. The schismatic “priests” can parade around in fron of their “altars” and say the old words of consecration, but they are no more effective than that new female head of the Episcopalian Church saying the Mass.

They are dissenters, no less dissenters than modernist priests are dissenters.

In my diocese, I can hear legitimate and valid Tridentine Masses, the Novus Ordo in English, Spanish, and Vietnamese, and sometimes in Latin.

There’s a SSPX “Chapel” or “Temple” or “Ziggurat” or whatever they want to call it in the next town 15 miles away, and those who reject Christ’s Church and his Vicar are welcome to go and watch those men “going through the motions” down there.

Richard,

I bet it REALLY irritates you that Msgr Pearl and the Ecclesia Dei commission has verified that those who want to escape the sacramental abuse three-ring circus atmosphere of the Novus Ordo may attend an SSPX Mass and fulfill their Sunday obligation, AND put money in the collection basket.

 

[estesbob]

I am certain they had a problem with the Mass of Martin Luther, which is what you celebrate in the Novus Ordo.

The prediction of the coming of the sacramental abuse in the Novus Ordo is probably the third secret that the Popes have refused to release.

And here I thought Christ founded a Church-now, after 2,000 years i find he founded a Mass! This is the most startling discovery i have made since my Protestant bretheren informed me he founded a book.

 

[Richardols]

Richard,

I bet it REALLY irritates you that Msgr Pearl and the Ecclesia Dei commission has verified that those who want to escape the sacramental abuse three-ring circus atmosphere of the Novus Ordo may attend an SSPX Mass and fulfill their Sunday obligation, AND put money in the collection basket.

No it doesn’t. It doesn’t irritate me because I consider anything associated with the Schismatics and their “Mass” or other antics to be worthless. For example, a priest can’t perform marriages nor hear confessions unless the Ordinary grants them faculties to do so. Which faithful bishops won’t do. So going to confession to one of those “priests” is like confessing to the wall, and getting married in front of one of those “priests” is like jumping over a broomstick.

That Monsignor can say whatever he likes. He isn’t the Pope and I’ll wait to hear what B16 says.

The Schismatics can pretend that they are saying the Mass, but I don’t consider their recitations as any more valid than the Episcopal Mass.

BTW, I respect both the Tridentine Mass and the Novus Ordo when they are said by Catholic priests and I attend both.

The Schismatics are welcome to perform their charades as they like.

 

[Richardols]

“the Church’s present evaluation of the situation of the Society of St Pius X”, spelling out the consequences, and declaring that attendance at SSPX Masses, since they are celebrated by priests suspended from priestly functions, is for Catholics “morally illicit” in normal circumstances.

Status of the Society of St. Pius X Masses, Msgr. Camille Perl, Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, N.117/95

Enough said.

 

[giuseppeTO]

And here I thought Christ founded a Church-now, after 2,000 years i find he founded a Mass! This is the most startling discovery i have made since my Protestant bretheren informed me he founded a book.

No, you were right Bob. Unfortunately, during the Protestant revolution, Luther took the primultimate prayer, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and changed it. In his words, “the Catholic Mass stinks of oblation” (you won’t find much mention of sacrifice or oblation in the Novus Ordo). So, to crush the belief in the True Presence, he turned it into a Happy Meal, let everyone “handle” the sacrament … it is only bread, and turned the priest into a “presider”.

And it is this McMass you celebrate. Valid? - For now, it is. Forgive us schmatics if we decline your sacramental abuse and hand-holding bonding sessions. We’ll stick to our VALID Mass while you push the validity of the Novus Ordo to the limit and we’ll welcome the other fed-up Catholics as they reach saturation with what passes for Mass in the modern church.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JKirkLVNV;1635774:

He most certainly can and he did.

Quo Primam was a measure taken against Cranmer’s Mass (which is now the Novus Ordo) and the requirement that Engish priests say the new venacular Mass, along with its other changes. That is why Pius canonized it.

Quite incorrect, on virtually all counts. You need to read objective history, not propaganda from radical traditionalists. I was an Anglican and any resemblance between Cranmer’s service and the Novus Ordo is purely based on their common roots in the Western liturgy (Cranmer borrowed heavily from the Old Sarum Rite, for example). The essential form of the Mass is “This is My Body,” and “This is My Blood.” We HAVE to have that (in the Western Rite) to have a valid consecration. The pope cannot rule otherwise. Most of the rest of it is subject to discipline and ordering by the pope and no pope can bind a future pope on a matter of discipline. QP is not infallible in this regard as it touches on a discipline.

Regarding the vernacular, Trent did not forbid the use of the vernacular per se, but simply said that it did not seem wise at that time. Again, since this is an area of discipline, the Church has the authority to rule. If the pope allowed it, for example, we could easily have the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Richard,

I bet it REALLY irritates you that Msgr Pearl and the Ecclesia Dei commission has verified that those who want to escape the sacramental abuse three-ring circus atmosphere of the Novus Ordo may attend an SSPX Mass and fulfill their Sunday obligation, AND put money in the collection basket.

Not much danger. Go onto their website for North America. The places where they list chapels as having websites also list the average attendance for each chapel. At most (and that’s only in a couple of places), they have about 200 people per mass. If you’re interested, I did a little research and you only have to click on the links.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1579241&postcount=44

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1579255&postcount=46

 

[JKirkLVNV]

“the Church’s present evaluation of the situation of the Society of St Pius X”, spelling out the consequences, and declaring that attendance at SSPX Masses, since they are celebrated by priests suspended from priestly functions, is for Catholics “morally illicit” in normal circumstances.

Status of the Society of St. Pius X Masses, Msgr. Camille Perl, Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, N.117/95

Enough said.

Spot on. Let’s hope for their sakes, Pope Benedict is indeed generous in the expansion of the Indult. Otherwise, in a few short years, they’ll go the way of other schismatics and heretics (I mean, you don’t hear of Saint Pandecratus’ Donatist Catholic Church or First Jassenist Catholic Church or Saint Philocranium’s Gnostic Catholic Church, do you?).

 

[Richardols]

Not much danger. Go onto their website for North America. The places where they list chapels as having websites also list the average attendance for each chapel.

I’ve been by one or two of their “chapels” to see what sort of attendance they have. 30-40 people in Benton, Arkansas, for example.

More people attend noon Mass at St. Andrew’s here in Little Rock weekdays - conveniently directly behind where I work!

 

[giuseppeTO]

“the Church’s present evaluation of the situation of the Society of St Pius X”, spelling out the consequences, and declaring that attendance at SSPX Masses, since they are celebrated by priests suspended from priestly functions, is for Catholics “morally illicit” in normal circumstances.

Status of the Society of St. Pius X Masses, Msgr. Camille Perl, Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, N.117/95

Enough said.

Mais non, mon frere!

They are within the confines of the Church. The problem is just that there is a lack of a full, a more perfect – and as it was said during the meeting with Msgr. Fellay – a more full communion, because communion exists. - The statement of Cardinal Castrillon - November 13, 2005 - In the reign of Pope Benedict XVI

And you also forgot:

“Faithful are free to attend SSPX Masses if they do so out of love for the anciet liturgy” - Msgr Pearl"

 

[estesbob]

No, you were right Bob. Unfortunately, during the Protestant revolution, Luther took the primultimate prayer, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and changed it. In his words, “the Catholic Mass stinks of oblation” (you won’t find much mention of sacrifice or oblation in the Novus Ordo). So, to crush the belief in the True Presence, he turned it into a Happy Meal, let everyone “handle” the sacrament … it is only bread, and turned the priest into a “presider”.

And it is this McMass you celebrate. Valid? - For now, it is. Forgive us schmatics if we decline your sacramental abuse and hand-holding bonding sessions. We’ll stick to our VALID Mass while you push the validity of the Novus Ordo to the limit and we’ll welcome the other fed-up Catholics as they reach saturation with what passes for Mass in the modern church.

What makes “your” Mass more valid than the one it replaced?