Possible contraception in family

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rcwitness said:
Neither should be offended
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No one gets to dictate what offends any given person.

I realize it wouldn’t offend you, and you are absolutely entitled to not be offended by it. But it would offend some people — possibly the OP’s son — and he is equally allowed to be offended by it.
 
You are free to be offended at a question. It doesn’t mean you should be.
 
But, as an adult, why is this even your mother’s concern?

I talk to my mother about everything, but to be honest, she would not even ask this question. You have to cut the apron strings and just pray that you raised them right.
 
It’s her concern because she loves her children. Though I’ve expressed she should not feel entitled to the answer. Only that the son should not feel offended. And we dont know that he would be!

Maybe because I appreciate those who admonish and encourage the faith. Considering it’s done in good faith (kindness, patience, concern for spiritual health).

I agree that 3 years is a long time to not say anything about a miscarriage, or infertility, or any other legitimate struggle.

Maybe this mother is wrongly fearing malicious activity (regarding DIL secretly contracepting). I dont encourage those fears.

I think it’s better to ask “Do you guys want children? It’s been 3 years!!” than letting fears trouble you.

And from there… be careful and dont pry, but respect and encourage. And be ready to be gracious should possible unpleasant answers come.

And also be ready to respect “I’d rather not talk about it, mom”

Maybe “Ok honey. I love you and want you to know your father and I are here for you no matter what. We hope you trust Jesus in your marriage!”
 
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rcwitness said:
I agree that 3 years is a long time to not say anything about a miscarriage, or infertility, or any other legitimate struggle.
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It’s well within their rights to never tell about a miscarriage or infertility. Just because they haven’t explicitly stated it in three years’ time doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
 
Yep. That’s their legalistic right.

Again, for the manyith time, the son has a right to say he does not want to talk about it. He is a big boy, he can answer for himself.

That doesnt equate to it being wrong to ask if they would like to have children.
 
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It’s not their “legalistic right”. It’s their absolutely moral right to take it to the grave with them, if that’s what they want. And yes, it is morally wrong to ask. The OP is not proposing asking if they would like to have children. She is proposing asking why they haven’t had children yet. And the reasons she’s cited are that they are messing up her family tradition and she has invented a scenario where the wife is deceiving her husband by contraception behind his back. This is not about love. This is about control.
 
You haven’t actually followed my comments entering this discussion.

I entered the thread to suggest to the OP that she can ask if they want a baby.

Post #62
 
I read your comments. I agreed that one could reasonably ask someone if they want to have a baby, because the person could reasonably answer it in a way that allows them to keep their privacy. I don’t think there is any reason to believe, based on what the OP wrote, that the OP would be satisfied with any answer that wasn’t a full disclosure of all of their personal details on the subject, because she really doesn’t care if they want to have a baby or not. What she seems to care about is finding out why they have not had a baby on her schedule and “fixing it”. I think it’s a really bad idea to encourage her to initiate this conversation at all, given the toxic notions that she has disclosed in this thread. I think there is a very good chance that she will cause harm in her son’s marriage as well as irreparably damage her relationship with her son and his wife, particularly if she reveals this theory of hers that the wife is contracepting behind her husband’s back. I think she should put the whole thing out of her mind entirely and if she has to talk to anyone about it, let it be a counselor or priest and NOT her other children.
 
The OP did call her position as mother/mil, and senior female family member ‘divine rights’. I don’t know of anyone who would not be offended by that kind of attitude!

And, she did say that, if contraception is taking place, that her son was brought up the right way, or something like that. This could just have been started because she doesn’t like this dil, and wants an ‘excuse’. So, although, in some families, such a question might not be resented, most people can tell when they’re not liked. And making anything personal public would just hurt the dil more. Which doesn’t seem to be a great concern for the OP.

I’m still debating whether to hope she’s a troll. You can’t really make a good guess, with only a few posts. So far.
 
Allegra said:
I think it’s a really bad idea to encourage her to initiate this conversation at all, given the toxic notions that she has disclosed in this thread. I think there is a very good chance that she will cause harm in her son’s marriage as well as irreparably damage her relationship with her son and his wife, particularly if she reveals this theory of hers that the wife is contracepting behind her husband’s back.
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Bingo. This is the crux of the matter.
 
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Ok, then that was my suggestion.

I happen to understand the concern that the mother has, and how it can be troubling.

I also think it takes respect for the son’s privacy, while at the same time, expressing concern and support towards the son.

I happen to think that there is a certain level of “control” by posters here, who are trying to control the relationship in a manner which does not open itself up to healthy communication.

The mother did use the phrase “divine right”, however, she used it in this manner,

“It is my divine right and duty to guide my children and lovingly correct them so that they stay on the path of righteousness.”

She did not say it was her divine right to demand that she knows their reasons. She only expresses she hope’s it’s not contraception, and she is asking whether it’s her place to ask.

I have offered my advice to ask about having a baby in general. This allows the son or DIL to share what they wish, or dont share, without accusations.

This allows the mother to acknowledge the elephant which seems to be present, while respecting not to pry what does not wish to be disclosed.

It’s not unfair for a mother to have these concerns. They need not be demonized as toxic.

So my last post here (unless the OP responds to me) still maintains that I think it is healthy communication to ask about a baby. Whether the mother maintains prudence only depends how she handles the response.
 
rcwitness said:
They need not be demonized as toxic.
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This is the part that is toxic:

“She has no health issues, as far as I know and neither does John. They live nearby and have lots of family help. They were both raised Catholic, and my John knows better. John makes good money so there is really no valid reason to be delaying pregnancy.

Yes, I know they could be infertile, but I highly doubt that. Lisa is one of four and her sisters have children. John’s siblings all have no problem in this regard and Lisa is not yet even 30. She’s not overweight, and eats well so I am starting to think something sinister is going on. I know they would have told me if there was a medical problem.”

She doesn’t know for sure whether her daughter-in-law has health issues. Eating right, siblings being healthy, and not being overweight doesn’t guarantee perfect fertility. And they haven’t necessarily automatically told her about medical issues they have. It’s invasive to assume her adult children are going to share any and all information about issues as private and personal as fertility problems.

Also, having financial problems is not the one and only valid reason to avoid pregnancy.

“The idea that Lisa is using the pill pains me. I really can’t imagine my John knows about it, if indeed she is.”

This is a huge, unfounded, judgemental accusation against her daughter-in-law. It is extremely toxic that she is sitting around speculating and assuming things like this based on very limited knowledge.
rcwitness said:
The mother did use the phrase “divine right”, however, she used it in this manner,

“It is my divine right and duty to guide my children and lovingly correct them so that they stay on the path of righteousness.”
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When they are children. They are adults now. She has done her job — now it’s up to them. And I don’t think it says anywhere in the Catechism that parents must keep tabs on their adult children who haven’t had a child in the first three years of marriage to make sure they are not using contraception.

All of this indicates major boundary issues, and giving the OP the slightest notion that any of this is okay is going to end badly in that she will likely take a mile when given an inch. The answer is simple. She needs to stay out of it.
 
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Then please show in any Catholic Teaching where it is always immoral to ask your married children about their plans to have children?

If you cannot produce, then perhaps you should not accuse the action as immoral, but rather prudent or imprudent depending on the particular relationship and situation.

And the OP said IF DIL is on the Pill, not that she is.
 
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rcwitness said:
Then please show in any Catholic Teaching where it is always immoral to ask your married children about their plans to have children?
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You have missed the entire point of my post. Please reread it.

I didn’t say it’s always immoral to ask your married adult children about their plans to have babies. And in my post, I explained what is toxic in regard to familial relationships — from an emotional and psychological point of view — not what is necessarily immoral according to documented Church teaching.

My post was in response to you saying that the OP’s concerns should not be demonized as toxic. I was explaining why some posters are considering her assumptions and accusations to be toxic.
rcwitness said:
And the OP said IF DIL is on the Pill, not that she is.
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If you really cannot see that this is a judgement and accusation against her daughter-in-law based on extremely limited knowledge, I think I’m going to bow out now. Peace to all.
 
LoveMyKids said:
It was the joy of my lifetime to be a wife and mother, to homemake for them and to watch them grow up into adults
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It is lovely that this has been the joy of your life. Other people aren’t you, though. Honestly, there was so much wrong with your post that really can’t be addressed here properly, so I am going to sum it up this way: MYOB
 
Do you realize a necessary requirement for PUBLIC Christian Marriage, is to be open to life?

So asking your son if he is open to life in his marriage is not wrong or invasive in itself. It can be an act of love and concern.

How one responds to their reply determines whether they are respecting, being prudent, and or edifying.
 
It is none of mom’s business. You have no idea what kind of relationship she has with her kids. Maybe none of them can stand her because she is so controlling and nosey.

Christianity and Catholicism provides no foundation for a nosey mother to harrass her kids about their family planning. You shouldn’t think of this as “normal” by any means. It isn’t. It is rude, nosey, and smothering. Her attitude about family, in general, is very strange. The last thing I would be doing as one of her kids would be discussing my sex life with her or me and my wife’s family planning goals.
 
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