Questions for Muslims posting here

[Sister_Amy]

For curiosity’s sake, would you mind posting that description here? I’d like to see if the scientific truth is apparent to someone who doesn’t already presuppose the miraculous nature of the Quran. I understand if you’d rather not post it here, but I think it could be helpful.

But a quick search reveals some scientific inaccuracies as well…

Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky?
Nothing holds them up but (the power of) God. [nice, but wrong]
Verily in this are signs for those who believe. Surah 16:79
**
[emphasis mine, obviously haha]**

You know, I studied aerospace engineering in college. I am absolutely fascinated by the science of flight. And when I read that what you just posted here for the first time, witih my knowledge of flight, it struck me especially powerfully about how the flight of birds is a sign for God. Sitting in the pilot’s seat of a small aircraft I have felt the impact of these words.

So for me, it increased my faith. The same verse which guided me is misguiding you

In the flight of the birds are signs for those who believe. Subhanallah.

Anyway, here is the passage about the fly:

O people, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly, even if they gathered together for that purpose. And if the fly should steal away from them a [tiny] thing, they could not recover it from him. Weak are the pursuer and pursued. 22:73

So Allah is using the fly as an example or parable here. First of all, He says that anything that a person calls on besides Allah for worship (a saint, an idol, etc) cannot even create something as small as a fly. Science has not even been able to produce something as small as a fly. That’s the first part.

The second part of the verse is saying that if the fly takes something–like a tiny bit of food, which the fly is going to eat, then the person from whom it was taken could not take it back.

Is this a scientific claim? No, I really don’t think so. If you’re reading this verse 1400 years ago then you’re thinking about the obvious meaning here. That a fly is so small and if it takes something you’re not going to really be able to catch the fly and take it away.

But here’s something else that’s interesting about this verse, which wouldn’t have been known 1400 years ago. When a fly eats something, it has to basically vomit some digestive juices onto it and then it kind of sucks it up. Those digestive juices begin immediately to break down the food–and it becomes chemically altered. It is different, chemically, than what it was before the fly took it. So even if you could catch the fly and cut it open or something, you still couldn’t get back what it took, because it would be chemically altered.

Is this a scientific claim? No, it’s not. It’s an analysis of the verse with scientific knowledge which is known today that wasn’t known 1400 years ago. It is a “sign” I think. Not science.

 

[mattkubes]

That’s interesting Kristin - so they use these claims to try and “revert” people…and all the while, the intellectually honest among them must know that the “evidence” is shoddy at best and really has no bearing on religious truth.

The people who believe because of the idea of scientific miracles must be looking for God in the wrong places, but I can’t help but feel that their hunger for the Truth is making them easy prey.

All we can do is lift them up in prayer - the Trinitarian model makes so much sense, so let’s hope that this Truth isn’t denied by too many people…we’ve already done enough to offend God.

 

[mattkubes]

But here’s something else that’s interesting about this verse, which wouldn’t have been known 1400 years ago. When a fly eats something, it has to basically vomit some digestive juices onto it and then it kind of sucks it up. Those digestive juices begin immediately to break down the food–and it becomes chemically altered. It is different, chemically, than what it was before the fly took it. So even if you could catch the fly and cut it open or something, you still couldn’t get back what it took, because it would be chemically altered.

Thanks for posting that. Mind you, the enzymes used to chemically alter the food don’t perform a complete chemical reaction, especially not right away, so the science is a bit off…but I’m splitting hairs

So I guess the signs that people point to are used as evidence to support pre-existing beliefs. I don’t see any sort of foreknowledge in the passage, but if you go in thinking that there could be some scientific wisdom, you might come to the conclusion you did. Either way, thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

As for the flight thing - I agree that the physics behind flight is wonderful, and the laws and constants that govern it may be miraculous, but there’s nothing more extraordinary about a bird in flight than a beating heart. That’s what wings were designed to do! I know what you mean though…having taken at least 100 flights in a small plane (my dad has been a private pilot for 30 years haha), I’m thanksful each time we come to a safe landing

 

[planten]

Thanks for posting that. Mind you, the enzymes used to chemically alter the food don’t perform a complete chemical reaction, especially not right away, so the science is a bit off…but I’m splitting hairs

So I guess the signs that people point to are used as evidence to support pre-existing beliefs. I don’t see any sort of foreknowledge in the passage, but if you go in thinking that there could be some scientific wisdom, you might come to the conclusion you did. Either way, thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

As for the flight thing - I agree that the physics behind flight is wonderful, and the laws and constants that govern it may be miraculous, but there’s nothing more extraordinary about a bird in flight than a beating heart. That’s what wings were designed to do! I know what you mean though…having taken at least 100 flights in a small plane (my dad has been a private pilot for 30 years haha), I’m thanksful each time we come to a safe landing

**Please note that this thread started off with scientific miracles in the Quran (even though not mentioned in the topic), by Kristin. We have referred to the book of Maurice Bucaille “The Bible, The Science and Quran”. That is a book not written by us. The writer is quite capable person. He understood Quran better than any high level Muslim.

He used the word Science in the title of the book. So let us forget about miracles now and admit there are some scientific truths in the Quran. That should be enough and good for all of us.**

 

[kristin2007]

Sister Amy

This is the sort of clap trap I’m talking about.

speed-light.info/

Evidently you do not subscribe to the notion of miraculous scientific pre-knowledge in the koran. In that case I have no quarrel with you on that topic.

Planten

Are there scientific truths in the koran?

There is so much in the koran that by sheer chance there would be some scientific truths – especially if you stretch the interpretations a bit.

Is there miraculous pre-knowledge in the koran – ie deep scientific truths that were only rediscovered by western science years later? Truths that are unambiguously stated and could not have been known at the time?

I have seen no evidence of that. All such claims that I have investigated have collapsed when subjected to critical scrutiny.

Since Maurice Bucaille never submitted his writings on the topic of science in the koran to peer review his claims cannot be given much weight.

 

[mattkubes]

He used the word Science in the title of the book. So let us forget about miracles now and admit there are some scientific truths in the Quran. That should be enough and good for all of us.

Haha not quite - I’ll admit that if you’re already looking for them, there might be some reference to scientific knowledge in the Quran…but you have to look really close. But if we have to take that route, we’d also have to admit that, just like the flight of birds, there are some glaring scientific inaccuracies as well.

 

[Americanrevert]

**Hello and assalaamu’alaykum,

God wants to give us spiritual freedom, not scientific advancement

.

So you judge God? Sister Amy was correct in her assessment in TRYING TO CONVEY TO YALL, that the Quran isn’t a science book to the point of being put under a telescope…oh mind ya, be our guest , but come on, get real

so the claims are there, if they are, get to work! who’s stoppin ya Kristin? We already told you we are not scientists, but those who are~ contact them and start workin! Let us know yall’s conclusions!

Is there miraculous pre-knowledge in the koran – ie deep scientific truths that were only rediscovered by western science years later? Truths that are unambiguously stated and could not have been known at the time?

I have seen no evidence of that. All such claims that I have investigated have collapsed when subjected to critical scrutiny.

hmmm so you claim eh? What about the two seas that were discovered one salty, other fresh…and not intermingling…they were clueless back then, oh yeah, and the fingerprints are mentioned, oh yeah, and the mountains, oh yeah, and the rotating planets all in a systematic way, …etc. etc. etc…you think in the time of the jahiliya (ignorance) that these people actually knew about these things!!! Over 1429 years ago??? oh come on, get real…they didn’t know about the atom even and that is mentioned as well!!! sheesh…is all there but *YOU *refuse to see it.

americanrevert

**

 

[kristin2007]

Americanrevert

In what sense am I “judging God?”

The koran is not the word of God. I am free to criticise it in the same way I might criticise the Harry Potter books.

Mattkubes.

Yes, Muslims do use the alleged “scientific miracles” in the koran to try and “revert” people.

 

[Americanrevert]

**the first quote was not yours kristin it was matt’s I believe.

It is a tool to let people see truth…it isn’t Muslims that reverts people, it is God that guides. Muslims just convey and try to spread the message as best they know how…some use it with the miracles of the Quran, some in the hadith, some just Quran, some by their personal experiences, some by being raised in knowledge of Islam etc.

You can criticize all you want kristin, doesn’t make any difference to me, I will not be in your grave.

americanrevert**

 

[kristin2007]

Mattkubes, Angelos, Dolphinlove,

I first became aware of the so-called “scientific miracles” in the koran when a fellow student approached me many years ago. He and I were both first year science students at the time. I don’t think I’m giving much away if I say his name was Mohammed.

Mohammed quoted the “scientific miracles” as “proof” that the koran really was the authentic word of God. I raised the same objection then that I have been raising ever since. Why are these claims not submitted to a peer reviewed journal?

Eventually Mohammed asked if I’d meet his Imam. I did. He seemed an amiable fellow and raised the same question. The answer I got was along the lines that the Jews controlled the media and “us poor Muslims would never get a fair hearing.”

Even then at age 18 I thought, “how pathetic.”

But, guess what? I still get that excuse from Muslims.

Mohammed is no longer such a fervent Muslim. As a scientist he understands that there are no scientific miracles in the koran. Having published a number of papers himself, more than me in fact, he understands that scientific journals do not discriminate on the basis of the scientist’s religion.

 

[Angelos]

Mattkubes, Angelos, Dolphinlove,

I first became aware of the so-called “scientific miracles” in the koran when a fellow student approached me many years ago. He and I were both first year science students at the time. I don’t think I’m giving much away if I say his name was Mohammed.

Mohammed quoted the “scientific miracles” as “proof” that the koran really was the authentic word of God. I raised the same objection then that I have been raising ever since. Why are these claims not submitted to a peer reviewed journal?

Eventually Mohammed asked if I’d meet his Imam. I did. He seemed an amiable fellow and raised the same question. The answer I got was along the lines that the Jews controlled the media and “us poor Muslims would never get a fair hearing.”

Even then at age 18 I thought, “how pathetic.”

But, guess what? I still get that excuse from Muslims.

Mohammed is no longer such a fervent Muslim. As a scientist he understands that there are no scientific miracles in the koran. Having published a number of papers himself, more than me in fact, he understands that scientific journals do not discriminate on the basis of the scientist’s religion.

I definitely understand what you mean

You see I have posted a few times to rebut the so-called scientific miracles of the Koran, all of which are based on the deliberate distortion of the Islamic scripture by Muslim scholars. No matter how many times we expose this fact, Muslims will keep on ignoring the truth as they are blind because of their faith. However, I still hope more and more Muslims will find out the truth soon like Mohammad.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thanks for posting that. Mind you, the enzymes used to chemically alter the food don’t perform a complete chemical reaction, especially not right away, so the science is a bit off…but I’m splitting hairs

Before making this post I tried looking for some more scientific explanation behind the fly-vomit thing and wasn’t successful. Do you know of some source where I can find more information?

So I guess the signs that people point to are used as evidence to support pre-existing beliefs. I don’t see any sort of foreknowledge in the passage, but if you go in thinking that there could be some scientific wisdom, you might come to the conclusion you did. Either way, thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

I don’t think anybody took that verse and said “Oh, this is what it means, let’s go test it scientifically.” I think when that knowledge came about, someone found how it matched up with what the Qur’an already said. Which I maintain is not science at all. I just think it’s a “sign.”

As for the flight thing - I agree that the physics behind flight is wonderful, and the laws and constants that govern it may be miraculous, but there’s nothing more extraordinary about a bird in flight than a beating heart. That’s what wings were designed to do! I know what you mean though…having taken at least 100 flights in a small plane (my dad has been a private pilot for 30 years haha), I’m thanksful each time we come to a safe landing

Cool!! I love flying, seriously. Ever since I was a little kid. And it’s amazing. But if you think about how a bird flies and how long it took man to be able to try to replicate it? How many centuries did man try and fail? I’m not gonna try to convince you of anything here, but when I think about manipulating the air to form a pressure differential, to me I see God’s work in everything. And that feeling you get in small airplane, you really feel so small, and the sky is just so big, I’ve seldom had a stronger feeling that I really am in God’s hands, so to speak.

I have a thought, though. Suppose your little plane is struck by lightning, the engines choke and you begin to stall… what comes in to your mind? That the Trinity makes so much sense? Or is it just “Oh God…”?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Whomever Allah guides cannot be misguided, and whomever he leads astray cannot be guided.

O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord [Allah] who created you from a single person [Adam] and from him [Adam] He created his wife [Eve], and from them both He created many men and women. And fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual [rights] and [do not cut the relations of] the wombs [kin ship]. Surely, Allah is ever an All-watcher over you. (4:1)

 

[planten]

**Please note that this thread started off with scientific miracles in the Quran (even though not mentioned in the topic), by Kristin. We have referred to the book of Maurice Bucaille “The Bible, The Science and Quran”. That is a book not written by us. The writer is quite capable person. He understood Quran better than any high level Muslim.

He used the word Science in the title of the book. So let us forget about miracles now and admit there are some scientific truths in the Quran. That should be enough and good for all of us.**

**Those peers should have got hold of Maurices book and commented on it from their point of view. Science is not locked/ limited in the minds of those peers. And since when they have existed?

There was a definite belief that earth was stationary and other bodies went around the earth. There was a better belief when the peers woke up to a better reality that earth was not stationary. It was travelling. That almost shocked the church. Every new discovery was being denied by the church and the discoverers were being punished by the church, Galileo being one of them.

The peers came to the idea that earth was revolving around the sun but Sun was the center and stationary. The Quran said that Sun was also moving to its temporary stations (Mustaqar). The Quran also told that all heavenly bodies were global. That all were floating in their orbits.

What else is Science please? Maurice had done the excellent job. It was then the job of the peers of science to deny what Maurice had written (Published). Is there any writing from the science peers disproving anything written by Maurice? I hope not.

Now that kristin is a scientist, should take the book to the peers and complain there that such as such announcements (declarations) are being made by some one.Please look into them and approve or disprove them.

Until the peers disprove anything in that book, there is no need to deny the truth of the contents.**

 

[mattkubes]

Before making this post I tried looking for some more scientific explanation behind the fly-vomit thing and wasn’t successful. Do you know of some source where I can find more information?

When all else fails, Google Scholar will be your friend In short, there are the usual enzymes (aminopeptidase, etc) so nothing that acts super fast. I can’t believe I actually looked for it, but there was an article by…well, here’s the citation I’d give haha:

Terra, W. (1990). Evolution of Digestive Systems of Insects. Annu. Rev. Entomol. 35:181-200

I’m sorry, I’m still in research mode from my thesis lol

I have a thought, though. Suppose your little plane is struck by lightning, the engines choke and you begin to stall… what comes in to your mind? That the Trinity makes so much sense? Or is it just “Oh God…”?

Well, both actually. We certainly don’t believe in three Gods if that’s what you mean, but we also don’t put human limitations on God and say that He can’t exist in three Divine Persons.

 

[mattkubes]

There was a definite belief that earth was stationary and other bodies went around the earth. There was a better belief when the peers woke up to a better reality that earth was not stationary. It was travelling. That almost shocked the church. Every new discovery was being denied by the church and the discoverers were being punished by the church, Galileo being one of them.

Wrong again. Jesuit universities were teaching this before Galileo. He went to trial over the way he snubbed valid authorities. So with that premise proven wrong, there goes the rest of your post.

 

[Angelos]

I have a thought, though. Suppose your little plane is struck by lightning, the engines choke and you begin to stall… what comes in to your mind? That the Trinity makes so much sense? Or is it just “Oh God…”?

Since GOD is the Trinity, your question is condemned to absurdity.

 

[planten]

Wrong again. Jesuit universities were teaching this before Galileo. He went to trial over the way he snubbed valid authorities. So with that premise proven wrong, there goes the rest of your post.

****At least Galileo was punished for saying that there were Spots in the Sun. He was terribly punished by the church and he had to bow down on his knees to deny what he had said. Even then he was not spared. Would you deny that?

Now another subject. The present day advancement of Science is not due to the church. It is because the church has left off interfering in any legislative or scientific matter. Church has stopped interfering in the scientific investigations. That has permitted the recent progress by the secular scientists.****

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**Hello and assalaamu’alaykum,

So you judge God? Sister Amy was correct in her assessment in TRYING TO CONVEY TO YALL**, that the Quran isn’t a science book to the point of being put under a telescope…oh mind ya, be our guest , but come on, get real

so the claims are there, if they are, get to work! who’s stoppin ya Kristin? We already told you we are not scientists, but those who are~ contact them and start workin! Let us know yall’s conclusions!

hmmm so you claim eh? What about the two seas that were discovered one salty, other fresh…and not intermingling…they were clueless back then, oh yeah, and the fingerprints are mentioned, oh yeah, and the mountains, oh yeah, and the rotating planets all in a systematic way, …etc. etc. etc…you think in the time of the jahiliya (ignorance) that these people actually knew about these things!!! Over 1429 years ago??? oh come on, get real…they didn’t know about the atom even and that is mentioned as well!!! sheesh…is all there but *YOU *refuse to see it.

americanrevert

The rotating planets were known: it was called a Zodiac.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**the first quote was not yours kristin it was matt’s I believe.

It is a tool to let people see truth…it isn’t Muslims that reverts people, it is God that guides. Muslims just convey and try to spread the message as best they know how…some use it with the miracles of the Quran, some in the hadith, some just Quran, some by their personal experiences, some by being raised in knowledge of Islam etc.

You can criticize all you want kristin, doesn’t make any difference to me, I will not be in your grave.

americanrevert**

For those who don’t know, the last reference is to another “scientific fact” that the Quran knows that we don’t yet: the corpses of the dead suffer in the grave.