Questions to Muslims not born in the U.S.

[elwill]

The news is about persecution of Christians, and I did not figure that persecution of converted Christians (apostates), as a talking point, is out of limits in our discussion. Does religious freedom only encompass Christians bringing their bible or going to Church?

i understand your view . but in the beginning we were talking about persecuation of christians in egypt ( 10 % of egyption )
now, you are talking about 2 cases , with another words you are talking about problem of two persons out of 10 million christinas (neglectful value )

our knowlege for islam isn’t based on the reaction of some people toward Dina’s case

i personally base my knowledge in islam on quran

so the story of dina and her father may prove something about people not about islam

Dina’s father said he had a vision and he was attracted to the parables that Jesus Christ taught, prompting his conversion. Dina embraced the same faith of her father. Does this sound like there was illegal proselytizing involved and they were told lies about Islam or Muhammad?

no

Father and daughter are unable to go to the same Church twice fearing kidnap and torture, not idle threats, if they do not revert to Islam. They are already being subjected to harassment; hence, they are in hiding. Would you not regard this as persecution, a situation that renders going to church regularly or bringing a bible moot?

if i can call the islamophopia in europe and it’s consequeces over muslims as persecution , then i will accept to call fear of apostate muslims to be persecuation

Maybe because they (secret Christian converts) know the predicament of coming out in the open, as Dina’s father did?

may be

Religious liberty is not religious liberty if it does not include the freedom to convert to another religion. Egypt guarantees the principle of religious freedom. Its laws do not address apostasy. In practice, however, the judiciary is allowed to prevent Muslims to convert to Christianity, running against the principle of religious freedom. In the Maher al-Gowhary case (Dina’s father), he was denied a change of ID reflecting his Christian status, prompting him to sue. Although the judge ruled he had correct legal form in the lawsuit, the subject of conversion to Christianity was rejected (as if the decision of conversion belongs to the state!) because it would upset the Muslims. Another discrepancy is that Bahais in Egypt are allowed to have IDs without stating their religion.

You said you have your opinion on the case. I would love to hear it, please.

no one can prevent someone to convert to any relegion the faith is in the heart not in the papers , they are christians now , everyone knows that , their only problem is to change that in their papers .

i don’t know exactly why the judger refused that
but as you said may be Security agencies will sometimes claim that such conversions from Islam to Christianity may stir social unrest .

unrest society may happens , if it happened no one can guarantee that all muslims will follow the teaching of islam and react peacefully .

I’m trying to understand. Tell me this, did not the Qu’ran leave the punishment for apostates to divine judgement on the Last Day? So why does a country like Egypt have a Sharia law that would run against its stated principle of religious freedom?

Does this not bring about disorder in society, precisely what Muslims in their country would not want?

Egypt guarantees the principle of religious freedom. Its laws do not address apostasy

That’s unfortunate because if you really wish to debate, you can easily pick just one report of persecution in the list and tell me your point of view. And we can go to the next report, ONLY, if you are so inclined.

Thank you, Elwill.

okey i will take one after another in separated post , okey ?
as a start tell me name of newspaper which your site copied from it

thanx

[/QUOTE]

 

[seraphime2008]

Finally an admittance to how others are persecuted in Islamic countries. An acknowledgement that it is very dangerous follows suit with Sharia laws say. It also follows along with all the lawsuits that are against people if they criticize islam even in our Western countries.

:clapping:

The only reason why the Islamic governments are not stable are due to sharia laws based on the texts of Islam telling the followers of Islam to be intolerant of others who disagree with them.

I tell you, if we think that only in Middle East Muslims are acting like wild animal towards their different neighbor and there are plenty of other muslim majority countries that proclaim themselves as moderate Muslims, this is a wrong and misleading concept because even in Indonesia which is known to base the ideology on secular values, the Muslims have never ceased to show that they are indeed a exemplar of savages…

This are reports in Indonesia of how they brutally burnt down and destroyed churches:

A recent one:
indonesiamatters.com/9251/cisarua-bogor/

Previously:
indonesiamatters.com/719/bandung-church-attack/
http:
//www.indonesiamatters.com/704/blora-church-closing/
http:
//www.indonesiamatters.com/589/west-javas-tolerance-problem/

many-many more are reported (wouldn’t be enough space for those reports).

Now all muslims can say that these acts are not done on the teaching of Muhammad or these are no representative of Islam???

…

 

[InSearchofGrace]

i noticed that you object our restrictions for hate speach against relegions , which made me wonder if you think that it’s wisdom to allow it in the name of " freedom of speach " !

You misunderstand, I think. Surely, you realize that Muslims and non-Muslims have alternate realities when it comes to certain applications of Sharia law and hadiths. Can you appreciate the argument that criticism of Islam, to those from the other side of the fence, is not hate speech, not gratuitous insults, but the truth?

In John 8:32, the verse says, “Then you will know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” Of course, a truthful statement hurts him on whom unfavorable light is shed.

My apology was because my comeback, instead of being brief, was a pageful of Muslim and non-Muslim notables who criticized Islam. These individuals do not subscribe to the notion that they were unprovoked on unreasoned with their criticism, although you can argue that what they said were provocative. They spoke of oppression and persecution, seen and experienced, as a result of the intolerance of Islam.

16-125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

6-108 Revile not those unto whom they pray beside Allah lest they wrongfully revile Allah through ignorance. Thus unto every nation have We made their deed seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return, and He will tell them what they used to do.

Thank you for the Qu’ran verses, which I read carefully. The first seems to be about how to argue respectfully (which probably should apply to those criticizing Islam?). And the second verse is an admonition not to criticize other religions?

By the way, I hope I did not invite idle exchange of verses here. Since you do not seem to regard persecution of minority Christians as a significant problem in Egypt, I asked you of the Qu’ran teaching on self-examination. The verses you supplied are beautiful, but they do not seem to be about self-examination.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

i understand your view . but in the beginning we were talking about persecuation of christians in egypt ( 10 % of egyption )
now, you are talking about 2 cases , with another words you are talking about problem of two persons out of 10 million christinas (neglectful value )

You asked how Christians have limitations or how they are persecuted in Egypt. I provided an example, the Al-Gowhary case and multiple incidents, mostly involving Copts, as reported by Persecution.org. I think you stopped reading the rest of the post.

You seem to minimize or understate the Al-Gowhary case, Elwill. The punishment that Dina and her father are being subjected to is not consistent with the Qu’ran teachings that there is no compulsion to religion, and any retribution for apostasy, if any, is reserved for divine punishment in the Final Day.

so the story of dina and her father may prove something about people not about islam

The people behind the persecution of Dina and her father maintain they are following Islamic or Sharia law. Please explain how can Islam or its teaching be disassociated from the act in this situation?

if i can call the islamophopia in europe and it’s consequeces over muslims as persecution , then i will accept to call fear of apostate muslims to be persecuation

I do not think the Europeans’ fear of Muslims in their countries can equate to the fear that Muslims have for having apostates around (to be persecuted, in your words) in a Muslim country. Europeans fear their planes and trains might get bombed. What do the Muslims have to fear in the hands of apostates or Christian converts? Only that the converts would be adding to the people praying in the Churches? What danger do the Christians place to the lives and well-being of Muslims?

It’s a big irony and twist of fate – the Christians used to be more in number but they became the minority after the bulk of the Egyptian population converted to Islam following the Muslim conquest of Egypt in the 7th century! Now that they comprise only 10% of the population, their reports of persecution are dismissed as not a big or serious problem.

no one can prevent someone to convert to any relegion the faith is in the heart not in the papers , they are christians now , everyone knows that , their only problem is to change that in their papers .

i don’t know exactly why the judger refused that
but as you said may be Security agencies will sometimes claim that such conversions from Islam to Christianity may stir social unrest .

If conversions from Islam to Christianity are against public policy, then the Security agencies would have credibility in claiming that such conversions may lead to social unrest. It is Egypt’s policy, however, to guarantee religious freedom, so allowing conversions would not be against it. It appears that the Security agencies are just using the reason that conversions may lead to social unrest, as a pretext to disallow conversions.

If the leaders interpret Sharia law to be consistent with Egypt’s guarantee of religious freedom, would not the population follow suit and this would be a start to Muslims tolerating Christians and its converts?

unrest society may happens , if it happened no one can guarantee that all muslims will follow the teaching of islam and react peacefully .

You seem accepting or understanding of reactions of Muslims when they take matters into their own hands in these situations, i.e., violence towards the Christian converts. Is this justifiable in your view?

Egypt guarantees the principle of religious freedom. Its laws do not address apostasy

These were my sentences in my post. Were you composing your thoughts and did not finish?

okey i will take one after another in separated post , okey ?
as a start tell me name of newspaper which your site copied from it

Okay, we shall get on with that. There’s enough discussion in this post for now. Just giving you a heads up, I may not be able to reply to yours right away in the coming days, as I’m preparing to leave for a trip. But I’ll be back!

 

[elwill]

I tell you, if we think that only in Middle East Muslims are acting like wild animal towards their different neighbor and there are plenty of other muslim majority countries that proclaim themselves as moderate Muslims, this is a wrong and misleading concept because even in Indonesia which is known to base the ideology on secular values, the Muslims have never ceased to show that they are indeed a exemplar of savages…

This are reports in Indonesia of how they brutally burnt down and destroyed churches:

A recent one:
indonesiamatters.com/9251/cisarua-bogor/

Previously:
indonesiamatters.com/719/bandung-church-attack/
http:
//www.indonesiamatters.com/704/blora-church-closing/
http:
//www.indonesiamatters.com/589/west-javas-tolerance-problem/

many-many more are reported (wouldn’t be enough space for those reports).

**Now all muslims can say that these acts are not done on the teaching of Muhammad or these are no representative of Islam??? **
…

offcourse

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I

A recent one:
indonesiamatters.com/9251/cisarua-bogor/

Previously:
indonesiamatters.com/719/bandung-church-attack/
http:
//www.indonesiamatters.com/704/blora-church-closing/
http:
//www.indonesiamatters.com/589/west-javas-tolerance-problem/

many-many more are reported (wouldn’t be enough space for those reports).

Now all muslims can say that these acts are not done on the teaching of Muhammad or these are no representative of Islam???

…

Thanks for your links! I intend to read up on them. News from Bandung, Indonesia!

CAF is great. I can’t tell you how much information I get from this forum. It’s also the best Continuing Education platform for us in matters Catholic.

Blessings,

 

[elwill]

You misunderstand, I think. Surely, you realize that Muslims and non-Muslims have alternate realities when it comes to certain applications of Sharia law and hadiths. Can you appreciate the argument that criticism of Islam, to those from the other side of the fence, is not hate speech, not gratuitous insults, but the truth?

truth from which point of view ?
if you will criticize islam for the truth which muslims have about islam . i will appreciate it much , but criticizing these things which you prefer to assume it’s islamic while muslims themselfs dosn’t consider it islamic , then i will consider it lies about islam , corruption for it’s real teaching

In John 8:32, the verse says, “Then you will know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” Of course, a truthful statement hurts him on whom unfavorable light is shed.

agreed

My apology was because my comeback, instead of being brief, was a pageful of Muslim and non-Muslim notables who criticized Islam. These individuals do not subscribe to the notion that they were unprovoked on unreasoned with their criticism, although you can argue that what they said were provocative. They spoke of oppression and persecution, seen and experienced, as a result of the intolerance of Islam.

me , either spoke of somethings i see and experienced myself .
it’s not neccessery that all what you read is lies , the problem is that this is the only portion you focus to see and read about
from my view , i see the situation more entirly and more clearly . i think that my openion will be more balanced

Thank you for the Qu’ran verses, which I read carefully. The first seems to be about how to argue respectfully (which probably should apply to those criticizing Islam?). And the second verse is an admonition not to criticize other religions?

yes , for both questions

By the way, I hope I did not invite idle exchange of verses here. Since you do not seem to regard persecution of minority Christians as a significant problem in Egypt, I asked you of the Qu’ran teaching on self-examination. The verses you supplied are beautiful, but they do not seem to be about self-examination.

what do you mean by self-examination ?

 

[elwill]

You asked how Christians have limitations or how they are persecuted in Egypt. I provided an example, the Al-Gowhary case and multiple incidents, mostly involving Copts, as reported by Persecution.org. I think you stopped reading the rest of the post.

two persons changed their relegion and can’t get their rights to change their papers , it’s a problem but its not enough to say that christians be persecuated in egypt , i hope you understand my point

You seem to minimize or understate the Al-Gowhary case, Elwill. The punishment that Dina and her father are being subjected to is not consistent with the Qu’ran teachings that there is no compulsion to religion, and any retribution for apostasy, if any, is reserved for divine punishment in the Final Day.

yes it’s not consistent with the quran teaching

The people behind the persecution of Dina and her father maintain they are following Islamic or Sharia law. Please explain how can Islam or its teaching be disassociated from the act in this situation?

it’s because the acts in this situation not based on the sources of isalmic relegion ( quran and sunnah )

I do not think the Europeans’ fear of Muslims in their countries can equate to the fear that Muslims have for having apostates around (to be persecuted, in your words) in a Muslim country. Europeans fear their planes and trains might get bombed.

i’m not sure who of them have more fear
but how many muslims apostats in thier countries with comparison to number of muslims in europe

What do the Muslims have to fear in the hands of apostates or Christian converts? Only that the converts would be adding to the people praying in the Churches? What danger do the Christians place to the lives and well-being of Muslims?

it’s fanaticism which we fear , fanaticism is exist among christians as well

If conversions from Islam to Christianity are against public policy, then the Security agencies would have credibility in claiming that such conversions may lead to social unrest. It is Egypt’s policy, however, to guarantee religious freedom, so allowing conversions would not be against it. It appears that the Security agencies are just using the reason that conversions may lead to social unrest, as a pretext to disallow conversions.

yes , you are right , i understnad

so the formal christians have no problems , but may be the muslims who want to convert to christianity have problems . can we agree with that

If the leaders interpret Sharia law to be consistent with Egypt’s guarantee of religious freedom, would not the population follow suit and this would be a start to Muslims tolerating Christians and its converts?

i hope so

You seem accepting or understanding of reactions of Muslims when they take matters into their own hands in these situations, i.e., violence towards the Christian converts. Is this justifiable in your view?

yes i understnad their reactions , as i said to you , the fanaticism exist and somehow they try to deal with it by care

Okay, we shall get on with that. There’s enough discussion in this post for now. Just giving you a heads up, I may not be able to reply to yours right away in the coming days, as I’m preparing to leave for a trip. But I’ll be back!

i hope good and peace trip for you
i appreciate your respectfull mannar in your argument

peace

 

[seraphime2008]

"seraphime2008:

Now all muslims can say that these acts are not done on the teaching of Muhammad or these are no representative of Islam???
…

offcourse

Elwill,
those riots were not done unorganized. These are not spontaneous acts that came as some sort of automatic defensive actions. They were all organized by no less than the ullema or clerics of Muslims who must understand well the teachings of Islam. If it was not done on the basis of Muslims teaching then this horrible ullema must have come with their own ideas which won’t be accepted by his followers. They must have pointed teachings or lines in Koran that they think justify their acts.

Seriously Elwill, this has been done too many times by Muslims, something that has been done too many times must have some root at least literally in the teachings that has been shown to you many times.

The problems are why Muslims are so sensitive and so fearful in seeing that people would have possibilities in seeing the truth in other religion? Why is converting seen to be a treason to society when each of the individual would be punished and judged individually by God? Why are these Muslims feel so fragile that they cannot stand still and believe in themselves and their own faith and keep the society in peace when it comes to individual converting to other religion? I myself sniff some sort of “jealousy” and “envy”

 

[elwill]

Elwill,
those riots were not done unorganized. These are not spontaneous acts that came as some sort of automatic defensive actions. They were all organized by no less than the ullema or clerics of Muslims who must understand well the teachings of Islam. If it was not done on the basis of Muslims teaching then this horrible ullema must have come with their own ideas which won’t be accepted by his followers. They must have pointed teachings or lines in Koran that they think justify their acts.

what do you mean by ullema , or do you mean olamaa which means scholars !
well , what is their names , and how far muslims accepted them as scholars ?
what is your proofs that thier acts are based on teaching of islam ,
did they quote verses from quran to justifies thier acts ?

is anyone quote quran to justify his acts means that his acts is islamic ? can i then refute your beliefs by quoting verses from your bible ?

Seriously Elwill, this has been done too many times by Muslims, something that has been done too many times must have some root at least literally in the teachings that has been shown to you many times.

yes , muslims always are the bad people and christians always the good people

do i need to remind you with the history of christians and how far they were very good people toward others

The problems are why Muslims are so sensitive and so fearful in seeing that people would have possibilities in seeing the truth in other religion? Why is converting seen to be a treason to society when each of the individual would be punished and judged individually by God? Why are these Muslims feel so fragile that they cannot stand still and believe in themselves and their own faith and keep the society in peace when it comes to individual converting to other religion? I myself sniff some sort of “jealousy” and “envy”

some christinas run away from their family when they decide to convert to islam fear of death and persecuation by their own family and church

it’s cause of fanaticism and shame of family when one of its members apostate from his relegion in our societies ( whether christians or muslims ) , it’s culturly thing

i believe that if our culture changed regarding this mattar , then the converters to islam will increase exactly as the converters to islam increases in your countries
may be the christians athiest will increase either

 

[seraphime2008]

what do you mean by ullema , or do you mean olamaa which means scholars !
well , what is their names , and how far muslims accepted them as scholars ?
what is your proofs that thier acts are based on teaching of islam ,
did they quote verses from quran to justifies thier acts ?

Well, off course those oelamaa in Indonesia didn’t get their title just by proclaiming himself, many of them have studied abroad especially in notable Islamic schools like in the Middle East, Al Azhar ect. Their acts are based on Islam because there are verses that may make them think it’s justified to do such thing and you pretend not knowing those verses. Do I need to put them here again in case you are in taqiyya mode?

*2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) The Quran *

*9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. *

Take a second, and have a look around the entire world. Wherever you have a critical mass of Muslims living in a non-Muslim area or vise versa,you have Islamic violence. Buddhists in Thailand, Hindus in India, Christians in Pakistan, Nigeria, and Indonesia, animists in Sudan, Jews in Israel, atheists in France and Turkey, people in North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia, whites, blacks, browns, etc., have all been murdered by devout Muslims. Islamic terrorism is here on a worldwide scale and it does not discriminate on the basis of race, nationality, or religion. No non-Muslims have been spared from Muhammad’s sword, the sword of Islam.

is anyone quote quran to justify his acts means that his acts is islamic ? can i then refute your beliefs by quoting verses from your bible

?

Perhaps you belong to a version of Islam 2, Read this analysis by a scholar that islam whether doing something violence or promoting peace, they all basically are thinking to spread the sharia law and to put the world under Islamic calliphate or at least under Islamic rule:
danielpipes.org/7770/islamism
Your version of spreading the word of peace is none other than an action of wolf disguised under the lamb’s skin…

yes , muslims always are the bad people and christians always the good people

I didn’t say that but there are and were many harms have been done in the name of religion, but nowadays it’s too much shown by Islamic followers, and perhaps Islam at is worst has its roots on refusing to be criticized or refusing to do the fundamental enlightening movement since all of you can only say that all of the problems have more to do with cultural matter when it can also be seen that Islam is an Arab cultural invasion imposed on its believers and trying also to impose it on others!

do i need to remind you with the history of christians and how far they were very good people toward others

Please do…all I can say it was not done under the teaching of Jesus. All were done because there were some threat or some injustice initiated by the other parties…!! Or at least these people involved even though bearing the title of Christians do not profess that the teaching in Christianity have made them to do those acts!

some christinas run away from their family when they decide to convert to islam fear of death and persecuation by their own family and church

Are you somehow out of your mind? They convert to Christianity and they all fear the persecution by the church??? Their families must be still the real muslim thinking that they are doing the right thing to persecute them because of the teaching like this:

*Koran 5:57 O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love [hubb] as they will love [hubb] Him, – Lowly with the Believers, Mighty against the Rejecters, Fighting in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things. *

it’s cause of fanaticism and shame of family when one of its members apostate from his relegion in our societies ( whether christians or muslims ) , it’s culturly thing

Nah…it’s not cultural, it’s what Islam has taught you. Do you think any Christian would beat their family member have they found them converted to any other religion? Bring any examples please, don’t just assuming something imaginative!

 

[seraphime2008]

g

i believe that if our culture changed regarding this mattar , then the converters to islam will increase exactly as the converters to islam increases in your countries
may be the christians athiest will increase either

You said that the converters to Islam increase from Christianity? Whoaaaa…what a convenient baseless opinion you proclaimed. See in the 80’s, the public census said that there are 90% of Indonesian are muslims, but the laters 90’s the census have shown that Islam has decreased to only 80%. But here are other interesting facts for you to see:

2 million ethnic Muslims converted to Christianity in Russia.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=513

In Africa, 6 million muslims convert to Christianity every year. English Translation here.
“In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed”.
formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972

200,000 UK Muslims Left Islam.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece

Mullahs and Imams leave Islam and enter Christianity.forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61734

Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims leave Islam

10,000 french muslims converted to Christianity.beliefnet.com/News/index.aspx

Some 35,000 Turks converted from Islam to Christianity last year.beliefnet.com/News/index.aspx

In West, Islam is growing mainly by immigration, and the high birth rate of muslims. Yes, some gullible people are converting to Islam out of great ignorance. But, that is very very small fraction, almost neglible. Good people who think freely can not maintain peace of heart and mind in Islam. They leave Islam immediately. That’s why in US, more than 75% of new converts leave Islam in just a few years.

…

 

[elwill]

Well, off course those oelamaa in Indonesia didn’t get their title just by proclaiming himself, many of them have studied abroad especially in notable Islamic schools like in the Middle East, Al Azhar ect. Their acts are based on Islam because there are verses that may make them think it’s justified to do such thing and you pretend not knowing those verses. Do I need to put them here again in case you are in taqiyya mode?

2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) The Quran

it’s not my problem that you choose the translation which fit your desire
i’m from arab and i know better than what is the meaning of “fitnah”

**Fitna **(pl. fitan) (فتنة) is an Arabic word with connotations of secession, upheaval and chaos. It is often used to refer to civil war, disagreement and division within Islam and specifically alludes to a time involving trials of faith, similar to the Tribulation in Christian eschatology.

what muslims did in indosnesia ( according to your article ) is a fitnah
in the fact , the verse you quoted condemned their acts , not supporting it as you suggest

Take a second, and have a look around the entire world. Wherever you have a critical mass of Muslims living in a non-Muslim area or vise versa,you have Islamic violence. Buddhists in Thailand, Hindus in India, Christians in Pakistan, Nigeria, and Indonesia, animists in Sudan, Jews in Israel, atheists in France and Turkey, people in North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia, whites, blacks, browns, etc., have all been murdered by devout Muslims. Islamic terrorism is here on a worldwide scale and it does not discriminate on the basis of race, nationality, or religion. No non-Muslims have been spared from Muhammad’s sword, the sword of Islam.

i don’t like to talk about politics , i incline to talk about relegions

Perhaps you belong to a version of Islam 2, Read this analysis by a scholar that islam whether doing something violence or promoting peace, they all basically are thinking to spread the sharia law and to put the world under Islamic calliphate or at least under Islamic rule:
danielpipes.org/7770/islamism

niether peace is absolute nor violence is absolute , that’s what i believe

Your version of spreading the word of peace is none other than an action of wolf disguised under the lamb’s skin…

if you wanna to talk about my version , then quote my words and my thought . don’t pick the thoughts of some articles i never read then assume that it’s my version
enough assumptions

Please do…all I can say it was not done under the teaching of Jesus. All were done because there were some threat or some injustice initiated by the other parties…!! Or at least these people involved even though bearing the title of Christians do not profess that the teaching in Christianity have made them to do those acts!

wow , exactly as muslims says

Are you somehow out of your mind? They convert to Christianity and they all fear the persecution by the church??? Their families must be still the real muslim thinking that they are doing the right thing to persecute them because of the teaching like this:

i said that some of those convert to islam from their formal christianity often fear from the reaction of thier families either , the fanatism exist in all relegions
fanatism in my openion not proof nor disproof the truthfullness of the relegion

Nah…it’s not cultural, it’s what Islam has taught you. Do you think any Christian would beat their family member have they found them converted to any other religion? Bring any examples please, don’t just assuming something imaginative!

do you wanna to suggest that there were ever no fanatism within some christianse

sorry i didn’t think that information like that needs proofs

 

[elwill]

You said that the converters to Islam increase from Christianity? Whoaaaa…what a convenient baseless opinion you proclaimed. See in the 80’s, the public census said that there are 90% of Indonesian are muslims, but the laters 90’s the census have shown that Islam has decreased to only 80%. But here are other interesting facts for you to see:

2 million ethnic Muslims converted to Christianity in Russia.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=513

In Africa, 6 million muslims convert to Christianity every year. English Translation here.
“In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed”.
formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972

200,000 UK Muslims Left Islam.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece

Mullahs and Imams leave Islam and enter Christianity.forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61734

Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims leave Islam

10,000 french muslims converted to Christianity.beliefnet.com/News/index.aspx

Some 35,000 Turks converted from Islam to Christianity last year.beliefnet.com/News/index.aspx

In West, Islam is growing mainly by immigration, and the high birth rate of muslims. Yes, some gullible people are converting to Islam out of great ignorance. But, that is very very small fraction, almost neglible. Good people who think freely can not maintain peace of heart and mind in Islam. They leave Islam immediately. That’s why in US, more than 75% of new converts leave Islam in just a few years.

…

i will give you somthing from your media

CNN TV - 1.5 Million American Converted to Islam
youtube.com/watch?v=j09xT1r7K7w&feature=related

NBC NEWS: 20000 Americans Convert To ISLAM Each Year
youtube.com/watch?v=Rfx4glTU5JQ

Converts to islam 70000 every year in France
youtube.com/watch?v=FYSHG5s6hiE

4000 German convert to Islam every year
youtube.com/watch?v=pzLhYwwFQKY&feature=related

Holland TV_ISLAM fastest spreading Faith among Youth Germans
youtube.com/watch?v=VDSTdymE7x4

 

[seraphime2008]

it’s not my problem that you choose the translation which fit your desire
i’m from arab and i know better than what is the meaning of “fitnah”

**Fitna **(pl. fitan) (فتنة) is an Arabic word with connotations of secession, upheaval and chaos. It is often used to refer to civil war, disagreement and division within Islam and specifically alludes to a time involving trials of faith, similar to the Tribulation in Christian eschatology.

Whatever you say, your last weapon is only the Arabic, poor moslems who are not Arab, they don’t know they were second class muslims since they wouldn’t understand Arab properly either…!!!

Btw you don’t try to explain verse 9:29 which exactly prescribe muslim for spreading hate and war with Jews and Christian. Let me again quote it for you:

9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

what muslims did in indosnesia ( according to your article ) is a fitnah
in the fact , the verse you quoted condemned their acts , not supporting it as you suggest

Really, but it does fit verse 9:29, doesn’t it?

i don’t like to talk about politics , i incline to talk about relegions

I didn’t even talk about politics, I’m talking about reports about abuses and as you yourself said the mischief which were done by Muslims themselves among their own nation, those reports were not talking about politics but riots done by Muslims thinking they earn to get different treatment than what other people get.

These are facts…don’t just hide and pretend not to know.
This are some acts done in the name of Muslims whether political or not, it’s your religion that teach Muslims to have some sort of different law Sharia than the civil state law that binds other people.

Here is some more news about how Muslims always think that they need different treatment than other people, as if other people are not worthed mingling with, unclean etc…!
danielpipes.org/4046/dont-bring-that-booze-into-my-taxi
danielpipes.org/blog/2003/06/muslim-hours-at-municpal-swimming-pools-in
danielpipes.org/blog/2005/06/islamists-in-the-hospital-ward

niether peace is absolute nor violence is absolute , that’s what i believe

So you’re justifying violence for the sake of not having absolute peace? WHy? For the sake of what? On the basis of what? We’re talking about peace among people in their own nation, can’t they have peace though there’re differences among them?

if you wanna to talk about my version , then quote my words and my thought . don’t pick the thoughts of some articles i never read then assume that it’s my version
enough assumptions

I’m sorry if it seems that I personally offend you. You’re not what I’m talking specifically, but there are so many examples indicating that even some moderate Muslims are still aiming at introducing sharia in places where they live even in secular countries. And why are you afraid to read the article? It’s too difficult for u to believe?

Here let me give you some excerpt:
*If the violence of Islamism 1.0 rarely succeeds in forwarding the Shari’a, the Islamism 2.0 strategy of working through the system does better. Islamists, adept at winning public opinion, represent the main opposition force in Muslim-majority countries such as Morocco, Egypt, Lebanon, and Kuwait. Islamists have enjoyed electoral success in Algeria in 1992, Bangladesh in 2001, Turkey in 2002, and Iraq in 2005.

Once in power, they can move the country toward Shari’a. As Mahmoud Ahmadinejad faces the wrath of Iranian street demonstrators and bin Laden cowers in a cave, Erdoğan basks in public approval, remakes the Republic of Turkey, and offers an enticing model for Islamists worldwide.*

wow , exactly as muslims says

No, it’s what you said. The Koran has different verses talking about the criteria for peace with the non Muslims, and as it is said Koran shouldn’t be difficult to interpret. It’s interpretable as suggesting either peaceful way in the beginning but later on possibility for waging war for submission.

i said that some of those convert to islam from their formal christianity often fear from the reaction of thier families either , the fanatism exist in all relegions
fanatism in my openion not proof nor disproof the truthfullness of the relegion

Just give me reports!!! Don’t just assume!

do you wanna to suggest that there were ever no fanatism within some christianse

sorry i didn’t think that information like that needs proofs

I didn’t say there are not any examples of fanatism in Christian, but it’s different with fanatism in Islam. If you think you can defend you assumption by not giving proofs, then it’s a proof of itself that it can not be proven since you can not give any examples whatsoever, proving that Islam, not the culture, that brings persecution towards people who convert from islam to Christianity!!

 

[elwill]

Whatever you say, your last weapon is only the Arabic, poor moslems who are not Arab, they don’t know they were second class muslims since they wouldn’t understand Arab properly either…!!!

the source of quran is arabic language , if you don’t want to take this fact under your consideration , i will not object . i just show you that your position is invalid for me

by the way , i copied the meaning of the word fitnah from wiki site , so that you will not say that i fabricate things

Btw you don’t try to explain verse 9:29 which exactly prescribe muslim for spreading hate and war with Jews and Christian. Let me again quote it for you:

9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

the verses talking about those who refuse to pay jeziah .

Really, but it does fit verse 9:29, doesn’t it?

did they refused to pay jeziah for them ?

I didn’t even talk about politics, I’m talking about reports about abuses and as you yourself said the mischief which were done by Muslims themselves among their own nation, those reports were not talking about politics but riots done by Muslims thinking they earn to get different treatment than what other people get.

These are facts…don’t just hide and pretend not to know.
This are some acts done in the name of Muslims whether political or not, it’s your religion that teach Muslims to have some sort of different law Sharia than the civil state law that binds other people.

the facts is that violence exist within people in each relegion . i will not judge any relegion by looking at violence they were imposed to ,
beside you mentioned all these events where muslims involved as if muslims are the transgressors all the time , which make your argument very biased and not objective

Here is some more news about how Muslims always think that they need different treatment than other people, as if other people are not worthed mingling with, unclean etc…!
danielpipes.org/4046/dont-bring-that-booze-into-my-taxi

it’s just amazed , how you judge on islam and entire muslims from very personal issues like that
i read the first article , the problem was about alcohol not about the relegion of the man itself , may be they will do the same with muslim if he have alcohol either , right ! ,

So you’re justifying violence** for the sake of not having absolute peace**? WHy? For the sake of what? On the basis of what? We’re talking about peace among people in their own nation, can’t they have peace though there’re differences among them?

sorry , i didn’t say that

I’m sorry if it seems that I personally offend you. You’re not what I’m talking specifically, but there are so many examples indicating that even some moderate Muslims are still aiming at introducing sharia in places where they live even in secular countries. And why are you afraid to read the article? It’s too difficult for u to believe?

difficult for me to believe what ?

No, it’s what you said. The Koran has different verses talking about the criteria for peace with the non Muslims, and as it is said Koran shouldn’t be difficult to interpret. **It’s interpretable as suggesting either peaceful way in the beginning but later on possibility for waging war for submission. **

i don’t think that it’s difficult to interpret
but you trying to interpret quran from the news and media , we interpret quran from the sources of islam

the criteria for peace is very clear in those two verses

8-Allah does not forbid you ( o’ muslims ) respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
9-Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

Just give me reports!!! Don’t just assume!

I didn’t say there are not any examples of fanatism in Christian, but it’s different with fanatism in Islam. If you think you can defend you assumption by not giving proofs, then it’s a proof of itself that it can not be proven since you can not give any examples whatsoever, proving that Islam, not the culture, that brings persecution towards people who convert from islam to Christianity!!

Present day: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aborti…
The vast majority of anti-abortion violence, harassment and intimidation comes from christians.

Further back in history there were the crusades, and the christian missionaries or Inquisitors who went out to “godless” areas to introduce them to jesus. Horrible, horrible things…

burningcross.net/crusades/chr…
”Children were flogged and slowly dismembered in front of their parents whose eyelids had been sliced off to make sure they missed nothing. Extremities were amputated carefully, so that a person could remain conscious even when all that remained was a torso and a head.”

Want some more? Here is some lovely christian torture devices and techniques used: jesusneverexisted.com/murdere…

 

[elwill]

Present day: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aborti…
The vast majority of anti-abortion violence, harassment and intimidation comes from christians.

Further back in history there were the crusades, and the christian missionaries or Inquisitors who went out to “godless” areas to introduce them to jesus. Horrible, horrible things…

burningcross.net/crusades/chr…
”Children were flogged and slowly dismembered in front of their parents whose eyelids had been sliced off to make sure they missed nothing. Extremities were amputated carefully, so that a person could remain conscious even when all that remained was a torso and a head.”

Want some more? Here is some lovely christian torture devices and techniques used: jesusneverexisted.com/murdere…

sorry some links dosn’t work

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders

jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism

 

[seraphime2008]

the source of quran is arabic language , if you don’t want to take this fact under your consideration , i will not object . i just show you that your position is invalid for me

That only stresses that if you can’t speak Arabic, you will not able to understand what Allah actually said to you, in other words: non Arabic muslims are second class 'cos they wouldn’t surely know what on earth does the Koran actually say…right? And that is a kind of invasion of Arab to the non Arab muslims…

by the way , i copied the meaning of the word fitnah from wiki site , so that you will not say that i fabricate things

Ok, but who would determine that someone is spreading fitnah? Accusation can always be fabricated and you get all the necessary reason to start killing?

the verses talking about those who refuse to pay jeziah .

So you agree that non Muslim should pay Jiyzah to muslims. That verse also says that if the non Muslims don’t pay jiyzah they got to be fought? You agree?

did they refused to pay jeziah for them ?

Did they have to pay the jiyzah to them, why?

the facts is that violence exist within people in each relegion . i will not judge any relegion by looking at violence they were imposed to ,
beside you mentioned all these events where muslims involved as if muslims are the transgressors all the time , which make your argument very biased and not objective

No, I just said that too many times, too often, too many places all those report were reporting the malicious action done by Muslims regarding their view that they are somewhat different than the rest of the world inhabitants.

I’m judging because we are told to judge the people by its fruits, so whatever you claim that we’re not supposed judged Islam on their adherents, but the fruits have shown too many times that these adherents are producing very bad fruits! There should be something wrong with the tree that they hang on.

it’s just amazed , how you judge on islam and entire muslims from very personal issues like that
i read the first article , the problem was about alcohol not about the relegion of the man itself , may be they will do the same with muslim if he have alcohol either , right ! ,

You mean very personal issues? They supposed to do their contractual civil duties to take passengers whoever they are, whether they bring alcohol or not. These people are not imposing the drivers to get to drink! But these Muslims think that they are the purest and cleanest people on earth thinking they would be damned to hell if they just do their duties! You think this is personal? This very personal action would undermine the very structure of community!

If you read the swimming pool article, this is not about personal, there are men and women denied their access to the pool because these Muslims do not want to share the public /municipal pool that was built by the tax of the people, the government for every citizen regardless, because these Muslims were thinking that the other people are dirty shameful unclean creatures!!! C’mon!
And you think this is personal, I will explain to you, it undermines the sructural bond of the community!

sorry , i didn’t say that

No you just say that you accept the condition that there’s no absolute peace and absolute violence…? Than what you mean? I take it that you accept that there won’t be any peace whatsoever even though people actually have to strive for them

difficult for me to believe what ?

That however peaceful you might seem to look, you still want Sharia to be implemented in governing all muslims in all countries? Or no?

i don’t think that it’s difficult to interpret
but you trying to interpret quran from the news and media , we interpret quran from the sources of islam

the criteria for peace is very clear in those two verses

8-Allah does not forbid you ( o’ muslims ) respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes…snip

Yeap…and why do you have these verses as well:
Qur’an (2:191-193) - “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

Qur’an (2:216) - “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

Qur’an (4:89) - “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Qur’an (8:12) - “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Qur’an (8:59-60) - “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.”

And yet, these list are not exhaustive, there are more or less 100 other verses which echo the same prescription of engaging Muslims to war with the unbelievers.

 

[seraphime2008]

sorry some links dosn’t work

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders

These don’t explain whether there are Christian who convert to Muslims being slashed or persecuted by Christian. These actions were done against the law that these people who are convicted, were sent to jail because the people believe that there are law that should bound all the citizens.

jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

What kind of link you provide, this link is saying that Jesus never existed and you as Muslims take this? You believe such as Muslim?
You think that those horrendous act was done in the name of Christian principle?
You believe that these are done up till now as cultural matter of Christianity? You bring cultural matter as something that was inherent in the Arabic people, do you mean that since it’s cultural, it cannot be straightened? Thus you’re saying that the religion don’t play role whatsoever to reshape the bad culture into a more positive one after all these hundred years?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism

No…there’s nothing in there saying that Christian people up till now persecute who ever leaves Christianity…!

from Wiki: During the 19th century, most Christian nations have adopted the principle of separation between church and state. Religious fanaticism is since an internal problem of the Christian churches or merely a personal (psychological) problem. However,** this is not so in most modern Muslim countries** (except, for example, Turkey under Ataturk.)

 

[seraphime2008]

sorry some links dosn’t work

jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

You would take this link as reliable?? C’mon on this very link I can also find this kind of lines:

Temporal lobe epilepsy?

Daily contact with sheep might explain a lot about “mystical encounters”.

I am advised by a practicing physician that the trances experienced by Muhammad and described in the a’hadith (narrations about the life of the Prophet) correspond to a classic case of "tonic-clonic epilepsy with a temporal start."

Ovine tuberculosis is a problem even today and raged unchecked in earlier times. This type of tuberculosis can be transmitted to humans and when a human is infected the disease travels directly to the brain where it forms a calcified cavity. This calcified mass causes a great deal of irritation and brings on epilepsy.

**Now the Prophet, we are told, heard ringing in his ears, his heart beat rapidly, his face turned red and his breathing laboured. Falling to the ground, he would shake with his eyes wide open and his lips trembling. He would drool or sweat profusely and would sometimes make a sound like a snoring camel. And, of course, he saw and heard things no one else saw or heard.

As a victim of such convulsions there is little doubt that Muhammad himself was convinced God (or Gabriel) was speaking to him**

You don’t check the link yourself and you brag about it??