Questions to Muslims not born in the U.S.

[InSearchofGrace]

truth from which point of view ?
if you will criticize islam for the truth which muslims have about islam . i will appreciate it much , but criticizing these things which you prefer to assume it’s islamic while muslims themselfs dosn’t consider it islamic , then i will consider it lies about islam , corruption for it’s real teaching

The meaning of truth is accuracy or factuality. In addressing the CURRENT problems facing Muslim and non-Muslims, is it not true that Christian minorities suffer in Muslim countries? Is it not true that Muslims persecute their own, any Muslim who would question Islam or Muhammad? Is it not true that there are Qu’ran verses that promote or call for intolerance to Jews and Christians?

Truth remains as truth even when denied. Some Muslims deny that 9/11 happened, or even say that the Holocaust is a hoax!

What is the truth from the Muslim “point of view”, pray tell. Actually this sounds like an oxymoron because truth is not a point of view!

Why is it that when you concede that violent or unjust acts against non-Muslims are committed, your explanation is always that they are not, they could not be Islamic (it’s just the people) even if the perpetrators themselves avow they do so in the same of Allah and Islam? You maintain that it is because of corruption of the real teaching of Islam, but one can glean the plain meaning of the verses in the Qu’ran, e.g., the “harshness” that Muslims should show to non-Muslims, and that non-Muslims deserve painful punishment and death.

When a peaceful or moderate Muslim talk about his extremist brother, he explains it away by saying that the radical Islam his brother follows is not true Islam. Or that particular Muslim leader is just misled; hence, the people listening to him are misled. But when one investigates the applicable surah or hadith, or a teaching in question, there is no mistaking the meaning that Muslims read and adhere to.

So, Elwill, what is the real teaching of Islam? Is there not truth in my OP query, did Muhammad leave a theology of injustice and intolerance to non-Muslims?

agreed

So you agree that the truth shall set you free?

If you agree, how do you square this with taqqiya, that Islam teaches? Whether it’s Shia or Sunni taqqiya, it sounds like deception, no matter how you slice “to smile in the face of some people although your hearts curse them.”

me , either spoke of somethings i see and experienced myself .
it’s not neccessery that all what you read is lies , the problem is that this is the only portion you focus to see and read about
from my view , i see the situation more entirly and more clearly . i think that my openion will be more balanced

I disagree that you have a balanced opinion. When you and other Muslims who come on this forum are presented with facts or news not favorable to Islam or Muslims, the knee jerk reaction is to say they are just lies before they are even read, or if read, they are sanitized or whitewashed.

Do you think Islam and your Prophet are above examination? Do you think your views and beliefs should be unexamined?

what do you mean by self-examination ?

The context, as you know, was my post as follows:
Consider what I have to say: our Christian faith encourages self-examination, as in these biblical verse.

Job 13:23
How many are mine iniquities and sins? Make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Here, I wanted you to see how our Bible encourages us to examine our lives, where we might have committed transgressions and sins against God and our fellowmen. “Fellowmen” does not only mean people who share our faith, but people who do not share our faith, as well. From the Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Colossians, 3:11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.

According to the dictionary, which I know you can check without help, self-examination is the study of one’s thought, conduct and motives, analysis of oneself, introspection.

Elwill, please don’t take this as an offense: how sure are you that your religion is the true religion, that you have taken the right path for yourself? Would you tell me if you and your countrymen are free to take a course or do a self-study on comparative religions?

I asked you if there is an equivalent verse or verses in the Qu’ran to the verse in the Bible that I pointed to above on self-examination. If so, could you provide it?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

two persons changed their relegion and can’t get their rights to change their papers , it’s a problem but its not enough to say that christians be persecuated in egypt , i hope you understand my point

We still have to discuss the reports of persecution in Egypt, at least some that we can cover, as you agreed. It looks like your mind is already made up that there is no problem.
So, in your mind, two people’s inability to get their ID changed is not enough for you to say that Christians are persecuted in Egypt. Consider these reports:

1. 
   The government has effectively restricted Christians from senior government, diplomatic, military, and educational positions, and there has been increasing discrimination in the private sector. Why?
   
   *]The government subsidizes media which attack Christianity and restricts Christians access to the state-controlled media. Why?
   *]The government does not officially recognize conversions from Islam to Christianity (so it’s not just in the Al-Gowhary case). Why?
   
   *]Foreign missionaries are allowed in the country only if they restrict their activities to social improvements and refrain from proselytizing. As you admitted on this thread, it is dangerous to proselytize Muslims even if it is done peacefully and without force. Why even have a policy of religious freedom in Egypt if this is the case?
   
   *]Many colleges dictate quotas for Coptic students, often around 1 or 2% despite the group making up 10% of the country’s population. There is also a separate tax-funded education system called Al Azhar, catering to students from elementary to college level, which accepts no Christian Coptic students, teachers or administrators. Why not?
   
   *]Hundreds of Christian Coptic girls have been kidnapped and forcibly converted to Islam, as well as being victims of rape and forced marriage to Muslim men.
   
   *]On January 2, 2000, at least 21 Christians were killed by Muslims in Al Koshh in southern Egypt. Christian properties were also burned.
   
   *]In April 2006, one person was killed and twelve injured in simultaneous knife attacks on three Coptic churches in Alexandria.
   
   *]In November 2008, several thousand Muslims attacked a Coptic church in a suburb of Cairo on the day of its inauguration, forcing 800 Coptic Christians to barricade themselves in.
   
   *]In April 2009, two Christian men were shot dead and another was injured by Muslim men after an Easter vigil in the south of Egypt.
   
   *]On the eve of Januray 7, 2010, after the Eastern Christmas Massfinished (which finishes around midnight), Copts were going out of Mar-Yuhanna (St. John) church in Nag Hammadi city when three Muslim men in a car near the church opened fire killing 8 people (7 Christians and a Muslim young policeman who had been standing on guard by the church) and injuring another 10.
   
   Can you still say these are not enough to say that Christians (the Copts) are systematically persecuted in Egypt?
   

   yes it’s not consistent with the quran teaching

   I’m glad you’re saying that now, but you were whitewashing in your previous posts.
   

   it’s because the acts in this situation not based on the sources of isalmic relegion ( quran and sunnah )

   Are you saying that the Islamic/Sharia law on which the acts of persecution against Dina and her father were done, are not based on the Islamic religion (Qu’ran and sunnah)?? What is one to make of this??
   

   i’m not sure who of them have more fear
   but how many muslims apostats in thier countries with comparison to number of muslims in europe

   How can you think it is a simple numbers game?
   
   ‘Persecution’ of Muslims in ‘Islamophobic’ Europe and persecution of Christians in your land and other Muslim countries are not the same.
   
   Justice does not operate the same way in Muslims countries as your Sharia laws institutionalize and effectively promote intolerance and hatred of Christians and converts. Consequently, Christians do not see justice meted out.
   
   In Europe, there is no persecution as it is properly defined, which is systematic driving away or extermination of a population. Violence or discrimination against Muslims in Europe fall under hate crimes or discriminatory acts, which are prosecuted under the country’s hate crime and anti-discrimination laws.
   
   You probably know that all of Western Europe have such laws, which say a lot about their society, even if most of the people there have pulled away from religion. Whereas, in Muslim countries, there is only a handful which have hate crime laws, and they are not evenly applied to Muslims and Christians! How is that for justice?
   

   it’s fanaticism which we fear , fanaticism is exist among christians as well

   Elwill, can you say that with a straight face? You have it completely reversed!
   
   A fanatic is one who is radical and extremist. Fanaticism is defined as irrational, excessive zeal, associated with bigotry, discrimination, and intolerance.
   
   Have you ever seen such headlines in your part of the world: Copts claim responsibility in blowing up historical Cairo mosque! A group of Christians kidnapped and tortured a Muslim activist and his brother in on their way to a rally in Al-Minya! Sisters who converted to Islam victims of acid attack by Christian conservatives outside Al-Azhar University!
   
   You know perfectly that it is not the Christians who grab the headlines as terrorist perpetrators in Muslim and non-Muslim countries. On the contrary, the Christian world has basis to use that word, fanaticism, to describe Islam extremists. Extremism is currently associated with Islam, not with Christians!
   
   [con’t]

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Elwill,

Btw, I read the links you provided to Seraphime, anti-abortion violence by Christians, the atrocities committed during the Christianising of Europe, and accounts of fanaticism of Christians.

Let me offer my reactions to your examples of how Christians “persecute”, as if it is comparable to the persecution of Christians by Muslims.

The anti-abortion violence by Christians, listing 7 incidents that lead to deaths of health professionals in the U.S. involved with abortion is horrible, just as abortion itself is horrible for its immorality, IMO. But is this comparable to what we are talking about, when the perpetrators are prosecuted as a matter of law and under the rule of law? Tell me, are the perpetrators of persecution of Christians prosecuted in Muslim lands (you can cite Egypt, if you wish) as a matter of sharia or civil law?

The atrocities of torture by Christians during the Christianising of Europe belong to the Dark Ages. That’s where it is appropriately classified, the Dark Ages. Remember, however, that the Christians were persecuted in the first three centuries until Constantine put a stop to the killing those who profess to be Christians. Further, it was before the 12th century, the Roman Catholic Church already suppressed what it saw as heresy, usually through a system of ecclesiastical proscription or imprisonment, but usually without using torture and seldom resorting to executions. This form of punishment had many ecclesiastical opponents, although some non-secular countries punished heresy with the death penalty. I’m sure anti-Christians are jazzed with this bit of history.

As for the last one, accounts of fanaticism by Christians, you must not have read it before you provided the link. The Christian fanaticism is explained in the context of the Crusades. But for Islamic fanaticism, this is what YOUR source says:

“Islam has become the most publicized religion with members who display fanatic tendencies. Ever since Osama bin Laden’s fatwa in 1998, the world has known about radical jihad.

Osama bin Laden’s fatwa illustrates the goal of fanatic jihad: “In compliance with God’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: the ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it”

Fanatic jihadists’ beliefs, as Ellens says, stem from a feeling of inferiority to Western civilization. He says: Because of its sense of inferiority in power and its sense of arrogant superiority in spiritual and religious quality, this militant form of Islam feels thoroughly justified in resorting to the most vicious forms of violent assault on its identified enemy. America is the perceived source and center of its problems.

Thomas Farr, in an essay titled “Islam’s Way to Freedom”, says, “The radicals insist that their central claim—God’s desire for Islam’s triumph—requires no interpretation. According to them, true Muslims will pursue it by any means necessary, including dissimulation, civil coercion, and the killing of innocents”.”

Not favorable for your religion!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

so the formal christians have no problems , but may be the muslims who want to convert to christianity have problems . can we agree with that

Not so fast. I do not agree that “formal Christians’ in Egypt have no problems. By “formal” Christians, you must mean the Copts, who continue to be brutalized in your country. I provided you some talking points already, for discussion when you are ready!

The problem, Elwill, is you deny the suffering of Christians in your country. If you were a Copt in your land, you would surely be one of those reporting persecution in some level, how Muslims do not let you fully practice your faith and the faith of your ancestors.

yes i understnad their reactions , as i said to you , the fanaticism exist and somehow they try to deal with it by care

So you agree that violent actions against Christians in Egypt are justified! How are you going to square this circle? Will you say it’s cultural, or you are following a corrupted teaching of Islam? Or, is it just you, an individual, and not Islam?

i hope good and peace trip for you
i appreciate your respectfull mannar in your argument

peace

Thanks, and peace to you, as well.

 

[elwill]

That only stresses that if you can’t speak Arabic, you will not able to understand what Allah actually said to you,

but is that apply to greek and hebrew language according to bible , which means that those christians who don’t speak hebrew or greek are second class either

Ok, but who would determine that someone is spreading fitnah? Accusation can always be fabricated and you get all the necessary reason to start killing?

this is very good question which should to be followed with another question
does islam allows for anyone to start killing according to his own desire or should it to be by laws ?
by the way , i don’t justify the acts in indonesia , actually what i’m trying to say is that those muslims are participators in causing the fitnah , i actually condemn them , quran actually condemn them .

So you agree that non Muslim should pay Jiyzah to muslims. That verse also says that if the non Muslims don’t pay jiyzah they got to be fought? You agree?

offcourse
tell me , are you have the free will to pay tax for your government ,
in my country if i refused to pay my tax i will go to prison

Did they have to pay the jiyzah to them, why?

i just test this case to be fit with the verses or not , this case dosn’t fit the verse 9:29

No, I just said that too many times, too often, too many places all those report were reporting the malicious action done by Muslims regarding their view that they are somewhat different than the rest of the world inhabitants.

too many other muslims places acts as the rest of the world inhabitations

I’m judging because we are told to judge the people by its fruits, so whatever you claim that we’re not supposed judged Islam on their adherents, but the fruits have shown too many times that these adherents are producing very bad fruits! There should be something wrong with the tree that they hang on.

do you mean that , there is no muslims in the world with good fruits ?
and threir are no christians with bad fruits!

You mean very personal issues? They supposed to do their contractual civil duties to take passengers whoever they are, whether they bring alcohol or not.

there are civil duties toword visitors and civil duties toward your own people and there are relegious duties
the priorities are differ from person to person . so that i think it’s personal issue

If you read the swimming pool article, this is not about personal, there are men and women denied their access to the pool because these Muslims do not want to share the public /municipal pool that was built by the tax of the people, the government for every citizen regardless, because these Muslims were thinking that the other people are dirty shameful unclean creatures!!! C’mon!
And you think this is personal, I will explain to you, it undermines the sructural bond of the community!

did muslims said that they thinking that other people are dirty shamfull unclean creature ?
or is it another assumption about how muslims think !

No you just say that you accept the condition that there’s no absolute peace and absolute violence…?

i said that niether peace is absolute nor violence is absolute
i meant that , someone should to be peacefull , but he can’t to be peacefull with crimers or with evildoers for example

That however peaceful you might seem to look, you still want Sharia to be implemented in governing all muslims in all countries? Or no?

offcourse , muslims wants for islamic rules to be implemented upon them ,

Yeap…and why do you have these verses as well:
Qur’an (2:191-193) - “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

the answer within the verse itself
or may be there is something else you trying to refere to … , please describe it

Qur’an (2:216) - “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

and who like the wars !!!
sometimes the wars imposed upon you , and sometimes it’s necessery to engage in it , right ?

Qur’an (4:89) - “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Qur’an (8:12) - “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Qur’an (8:59-60) - “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.”

And yet, these list are not exhaustive, there are more or less 100 other verses which echo the same prescription of engaging Muslims to war with the unbelievers.

isn’t it clear that the verse talking about wars , real wars
wait a second , i never said that we are peacefull which means that we have to give up and leave people killing us
islam gave us the right to defends ourselfs

 

[elwill]

These don’t explain whether there are Christian who convert to Muslims being slashed or persecuted by Christian. These actions were done against the law that these people who are convicted, were sent to jail because the people believe that there are law that should bound all the citizens.

may be you are right
do you need some other examples from history where christians used violence to convert people to christianity !

What kind of link you provide, this link is saying that Jesus never existed and you as Muslims take this? You believe such as Muslim?
You think that those horrendous act was done in the name of Christian principle?
You believe that these are done up till now as cultural matter of Christianity? You bring cultural matter as something that was inherent in the Arabic people, do you mean that since it’s cultural, it cannot be straightened? Thus you’re saying that the religion don’t play role whatsoever to reshape the bad culture into a more positive one after all these hundred years?

actually not i don’t believe in non-existence of christ , but i think that these stuff written theire are happened by so called christinas , if these things are fibricated history then tell me it clearly , honestly i will verify from it by myself

and yes i believe that crimes happens in the name of christianity sometimes
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

No…there’s nothing in there saying that Christian people up till now persecute who ever leaves Christianity…!

and i don’t say that christianity in the fact teach the violence , i show you that violence of adherence may have nothing to do with the real teaching of the relegion
i condemn the violence which acted by muslims , exactly as you

 

[elwill]

The meaning of truth is accuracy or factuality. In addressing the CURRENT problems facing Muslim and non-Muslims, is it not true that Christian minorities suffer in Muslim countries? Is it not true that Muslims persecute their own, any Muslim who would question Islam or Muhammad? Is it not true that there are Qu’ran verses that promote or call for intolerance to Jews and Christians?

Truth remains as truth even when denied. Some Muslims deny that 9/11 happened, or even say that the Holocaust is a hoax!

What is the truth from the Muslim “point of view”, pray tell. Actually this sounds like an oxymoron because truth is not a point of view!

Why is it that when you concede that violent or unjust acts against non-Muslims are committed, your explanation is always that they are not, they could not be Islamic (it’s just the people) even if the perpetrators themselves avow they do so in the same of Allah and Islam? You maintain that it is because of corruption of the real teaching of Islam, but one can glean the plain meaning of the verses in the Qu’ran, e.g., the “harshness” that Muslims should show to non-Muslims, and that non-Muslims deserve painful punishment and death.

When a peaceful or moderate Muslim talk about his extremist brother, he explains it away by saying that the radical Islam his brother follows is not true Islam. Or that particular Muslim leader is just misled; hence, the people listening to him are misled. But when one investigates the applicable surah or hadith, or a teaching in question, there is no mistaking the meaning that Muslims read and adhere to.

So, Elwill, what is the real teaching of Islam? Is there not truth in my OP query, did Muhammad leave a theology of injustice and intolerance to non-Muslims?

if you really want to know what is the real teaching of islam , then ask muslims .
why you choose to trust that terrorism is the real teaching of islam while most muslims condemns the terrorism which happend in the name of islam

So you agree that the truth shall set you free?

offcourse

If you agree, how do you square this with taqqiya, that Islam teaches? Whether it’s Shia or Sunni taqqiya, it sounds like deception, no matter how you slice “to smile in the face of some people although your hearts curse them.”

oh yes , it’s deception
i don’t believe in it , it’s not mentioned in quran nor in suuanh , the first time i heared about this concept is through my discussions in this forums

I disagree that you have a balanced opinion. When you and other Muslims who come on this forum are presented with facts or news not favorable to Islam or Muslims, the knee jerk reaction is to say they are just lies before they are even read, or if read, they are sanitized or whitewashed.

i didn’t expect you will agree , anyway i just live their , this is enough reason to think that i know more than you

Do you think Islam and your Prophet are above examination? Do you think your views and beliefs should be unexamined?

offcourse not , actually quran invite nonbelievers to examine the quran and teaching of islam

The context, as you know, was my post as follows:
Consider what I have to say: our Christian faith encourages self-examination, as in these biblical verse.

Job 13:23
How many are mine iniquities and sins? Make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Here, I wanted you to see how our Bible encourages us to examine our lives, where we might have committed transgressions and sins against God and our fellowmen. “Fellowmen” does not only mean people who share our faith, but people who do not share our faith, as well. From the Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Colossians, 3:11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.

In the Quran, Allaah Says (what means):
“We will set up the scales of justice for the day of resurrection, and no soul shall be treated unjustly at all. And if there is [even] the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it forth. And sufficient are We as accountants.” [Quran, 21:47]

Allaah also says, (what means): “Let every soul see what it sends on before it for the day of account.” [Quran 59:18]

“O you who believe! Fear Allah. And let every soul look to what it has put forth for tomorrow – and fear Allah. Indeed Allah is acquainted with what you do.” (Al-Hashr: 18).

‘Umar ibn Al-Khattaab said, “Call yourselves to account before you yourself are called to it and weigh your deeds before the day when they shall be weighed for you.”

Elwill, please don’t take this as an offense: how sure are you that your religion is the true religion, that you have taken the right path for yourself? Would you tell me if you and your countrymen are free to take a course or do a self-study on comparative religions?

yes offcourse

 

[elwill]

We still have to discuss the reports of persecution in Egypt, at least some that we can cover, as you agreed. It looks like your mind is already made up that there is no problem.
So, in your mind, two people’s inability to get their ID changed is not enough for you to say that Christians are persecuted in Egypt. Consider these reports:

1. 
   The government has effectively restricted Christians from senior government, diplomatic, military, and educational positions, and there has been increasing discrimination in the private sector. Why?
   
   *]The government subsidizes media which attack Christianity and restricts Christians access to the state-controlled media. Why?
   *]The government does not officially recognize conversions from Islam to Christianity (so it’s not just in the Al-Gowhary case). Why?
   
   *]Foreign missionaries are allowed in the country only if they restrict their activities to social improvements and refrain from proselytizing. As you admitted on this thread, it is dangerous to proselytize Muslims even if it is done peacefully and without force. Why even have a policy of religious freedom in Egypt if this is the case?
   
   *]Many colleges dictate quotas for Coptic students, often around 1 or 2% despite the group making up 10% of the country’s population. There is also a separate tax-funded education system called Al Azhar, catering to students from elementary to college level, which accepts no Christian Coptic students, teachers or administrators. Why not?
   
   *]Hundreds of Christian Coptic girls have been kidnapped and forcibly converted to Islam, as well as being victims of rape and forced marriage to Muslim men.
   
   *]On January 2, 2000, at least 21 Christians were killed by Muslims in Al Koshh in southern Egypt. Christian properties were also burned.
   
   *]In April 2006, one person was killed and twelve injured in simultaneous knife attacks on three Coptic churches in Alexandria.
   
   *]In November 2008, several thousand Muslims attacked a Coptic church in a suburb of Cairo on the day of its inauguration, forcing 800 Coptic Christians to barricade themselves in.
   
   *]In April 2009, two Christian men were shot dead and another was injured by Muslim men after an Easter vigil in the south of Egypt.
   
   *]On the eve of Januray 7, 2010, after the Eastern Christmas Massfinished (which finishes around midnight), Copts were going out of Mar-Yuhanna (St. John) church in Nag Hammadi city when three Muslim men in a car near the church opened fire killing 8 people (7 Christians and a Muslim young policeman who had been standing on guard by the church) and injuring another 10.
   
   Can you still say these are not enough to say that Christians (the Copts) are systematically persecuted in Egypt?

1. 
   i’m sorry it’s a collection of crimes , most of christinas lives in peace
   the cases you bring isn’t the norm and not justified by any muslims in egypt
   

   I’m glad you’re saying that now, but you were whitewashing in your previous posts.

   and i’m glad we understanding each other step by step
   

   Are you saying that the Islamic/Sharia law on which the acts of persecution against Dina and her father were done, are not based on the Islamic religion (Qu’ran and sunnah)?? What is one to make of this??

   judger
   

   Justice does not operate the same way in Muslims countries as your Sharia laws institutionalize and effectively promote intolerance and hatred of Christians and converts. Consequently, Christians do not see justice meted out.

   many other have no problems
   

   In Europe, there is no persecution as it is properly defined, which is systematic driving away or extermination of a population. Violence or discrimination against Muslims in Europe fall under hate crimes or discriminatory acts, which are prosecuted under the country’s hate crime and anti-discrimination laws.

   You probably know that all of Western Europe have such laws, which say a lot about their society, even if most of the people there have pulled away from religion. Whereas, in Muslim countries, there is only a handful which have hate crime laws, and they are not evenly applied to Muslims and Christians! How is that for justice?

   we have the same laws as you
   

   Have you ever seen such headlines in your part of the world: Copts claim responsibility in blowing up historical Cairo mosque! A group of Christians kidnapped and tortured a Muslim activist and his brother in on their way to a rally in Al-Minya! Sisters who converted to Islam victims of acid attack by Christian conservatives outside Al-Azhar University!

   You know perfectly that it is not the Christians who grab the headlines as terrorist perpetrators in Muslim and non-Muslim countries. On the contrary, the Christian world has basis to use that word, fanaticism, to describe Islam extremists. Extremism is currently associated with Islam, not with Christians!

   no , not in my country
   but as a wider view about christians’s history around the world , i know the wrost

 

[elwill]

Elwill,

Btw, I read the links you provided to Seraphime, anti-abortion violence by Christians, the atrocities committed during the Christianising of Europe, and accounts of fanaticism of Christians.

Let me offer my reactions to your examples of how Christians “persecute”, as if it is comparable to the persecution of Christians by Muslims.

The anti-abortion violence by Christians, listing 7 incidents that lead to deaths of health professionals in the U.S. involved with abortion is horrible, just as abortion itself is horrible for its immorality, IMO. But is this comparable to what we are talking about, when the perpetrators are prosecuted as a matter of law and under the rule of law? Tell me, are the perpetrators of persecution of Christians prosecuted in Muslim lands (you can cite Egypt, if you wish) as a matter of sharia or civil law?

The atrocities of torture by Christians during the Christianising of Europe belong to the Dark Ages. That’s where it is appropriately classified, the Dark Ages. Remember, however, that the Christians were persecuted in the first three centuries until Constantine put a stop to the killing those who profess to be Christians. Further, it was before the 12th century, the Roman Catholic Church already suppressed what it saw as heresy, usually through a system of ecclesiastical proscription or imprisonment, but usually without using torture and seldom resorting to executions. This form of punishment had many ecclesiastical opponents, although some non-secular countries punished heresy with the death penalty. I’m sure anti-Christians are jazzed with this bit of history.

As for the last one, accounts of fanaticism by Christians, you must not have read it before you provided the link. The Christian fanaticism is explained in the context of the Crusades. But for Islamic fanaticism, this is what YOUR source says:

“Islam has become the most publicized religion with members who display fanatic tendencies. Ever since Osama bin Laden’s fatwa in 1998, the world has known about radical jihad.

Osama bin Laden’s fatwa illustrates the goal of fanatic jihad: “In compliance with God’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: the ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it”

Fanatic jihadists’ beliefs, as Ellens says, stem from a feeling of inferiority to Western civilization. He says: Because of its sense of inferiority in power and its sense of arrogant superiority in spiritual and religious quality, this militant form of Islam feels thoroughly justified in resorting to the most vicious forms of violent assault on its identified enemy. America is the perceived source and center of its problems.

Thomas Farr, in an essay titled “Islam’s Way to Freedom”, says, “The radicals insist that their central claim—God’s desire for Islam’s triumph—requires no interpretation. According to them, true Muslims will pursue it by any means necessary, including dissimulation, civil coercion, and the killing of innocents”.”

Not favorable for your religion!

my relegion against fanatism

 

[elwill]

Not so fast. I do not agree that “formal Christians’ in Egypt have no problems. By “formal” Christians, you must mean the Copts, who continue to be brutalized in your country. I provided you some talking points already, for discussion when you are ready!

The problem, Elwill, is you deny the suffering of Christians in your country. If you were a Copt in your land, you would surely be one of those reporting persecution in some level, how Muslims do not let you fully practice your faith and the faith of your ancestors.

whatever , you can trust what you read
i’m talking as an eyewitness
but afterall , what i wanna to tell you that i’m always with freedom of relegions

So you agree that violent actions against Christians in Egypt are justified! How are you going to square this circle? Will you say it’s cultural, or you are following a corrupted teaching of Islam? Or, is it just you, an individual, and not Islam?

no one agree with violents actions against christians

 

[elwill]

thank you

but this is your definition , not ours

 

[elwill]

yes , people are taxed on the basis of been a different faith , the muslims pay more

jeziah be taken annualy from christians was 1.5 %
zakat be taken annualy from muslims was 2.5 %

 

[elwill]

Jizya" is derived from the root “Jaza” or “compensate”. Arabs usually say the phrase “Jaza, yajzi” which means “compensate” or 'reward" if a person rewards another for the service rendered by the latter. “Jizya” is a derived term in the form of “ficla” from “Mujazã” which is the noun “compensation”, meaning “a sum of money given in return for protection”.

Islam gave unique guarantees to the People of Dhimma that were and will never by encountered by humanity. In return for very few dirhams to be paid by men who are able to go to war and fight, they enjoy living in security and absolute protection by Muslims in addition to the security of their churches and faith.

The New Testament considers the payment of Jizya to the ruler as a legislative right. It is clad in holiness and is rendered as a religious matter. It says:

“Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He Is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him if you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.” (Romans 13:1-7).

 

[Kadaveri]

Jizya is not in place anywhere. It was abolished by the Caliphate in 1855 and barring a few fringe puritans there’s no interest in bringing it back.

 

[elwill]

which countries inforce jeziah now , the taxs be taken from muslims and christians alike , i think

 

[InSearchofGrace]

if you really want to know what is the real teaching of islam , then ask muslims .
why you choose to trust that terrorism is the real teaching of islam while most muslims condemns the terrorism which happend in the name of islam

Elwill, to be fair, I do read sites where Muslims and Muslim organizations denounce terrorist attacks, e.g., WhyIslam.org, religioustolerance.org, Al-Islam.org, and muhajabah.com.

I also note what you are saying, that you likewise condemn terrorism, which sadly continues, killing and threatening to kill innocents to this day.

Moderate Muslims maintain that Islam is a religion of peace; however, it cannot be denied that it is Muslims who are responsible for the majority of terror attacks around the world.

Non-Muslims do not just want to hear the condemnation. Lip service is not enough.

Non-Muslims would shift from their view that terrorism is a teaching of Islam, if Muslims were to dis-associate from their extremist brothers, like helping with or making a concerted effort to root out the murderous organizations and its wayward members, the adherents of this jihadist mentality who propagate terror “in the name of Allah”.

actually quran invite nonbelievers to examine the quran and teaching of islam

And there’s a slew of people who have taken up exactly that, examining the Qu’ran and teaching of Islam.

In examining Qu’ran teachings, it seems that for each virtue or good practice that Muhammad espouses, there’s a contradictory teaching that advises the opposite, depending on the time that Muhammad made the pronouncement during his years of conquest, or the context by which it is proffered. There is also abrogation or replacement made by Muslim scholars, the latter trumping earlier verses or hadiths.

Hence, there is a duality or paradox in key teachings of the Qu’ran, double speak on truth and falsehood, giving followers the flexibility to pick whichever side, and find justification regardless. No wonder, one would find it hard to discern: is violence forbidden or permitted, are people of the Book to be tolerated or killed, is lying justified or not?

oh yes , it’s deception
i don’t believe in it , it’s not mentioned in quran nor in suuanh , the first time i heared about this concept is through my discussions in this forums

Not mentioned in Qu’ran or surah, and the first time you heard about the concept of taqqiya through discussions in this forum, eh? Were you trying to give a personal demo of taqqiya, complete with your use of a grinning emoticon?

Surah [2:225] GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your innermost intentions. GOD is Forgiver, Clement.

The Arabic word, “Takeyya”, means “to prevent,” or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one’s self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:

“Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.” Surah 3: 28

Following excerpts from: islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml

"Unfortunately, when dealing with Muslims, one must keep in mind that Muslims can communicate something with apparent sincerity, when in reality they may have just the opposite agenda in their hearts. Bluntly stated, Islam permits Muslims to lie anytime that they perceive that their own well-being, or that of Islam, is threatened.

It is a known Islamic practice, that when Muslims are weak they can agree with most anything. Once they become strong, then they negate what they formerly vowed.
The principle of sanctioning lying for the cause of Islam bears grave implications in matters relating to the spread of the religion of Islam in the West. Muslim activists employ deceptive tactics in their attempts to polish Islam’s image and make it more attractive to prospective converts. They carefully try to avoid, obscure, and omit mentioning any of the negative Islamic texts and teachings.

An example of Islamic deception is that Muslim activists always quote the passages of the Quran from the early part of Mohammed’s ministry while living in Mecca. These texts are peaceful and exemplify tolerance towards those that are not followers of Islam. All the while, they are fully aware that most of these passages were abrogated (cancelled and replaced) by passages that came after he migrated to Medina. The replacement verses reflect prejudice, intolerance, and endorse violence upon unbelievers

In conclusion, it is imperative to understand, that Muslim leaders can use this loop-hole in their religion, to absolve them from any permanent commitment. It is also important to know that what Muslim activists say to spread Islam may not always be the whole truth. When dealing with Muslims, what they say is not the issue. The real issue is, what they actually mean in their hearts."

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Elwill, I would like to acknowledge and thank you for providing the Qu’ran verses on self-examination. Islamic extremists should try to read these verses more!

i didn’t expect you will agree , anyway i just live their , this is enough reason to think that i know more than you

Good for you that you are a Muslim where Muslims are dominant.

Even as the international Christian community is in an uproar over the persecution of Copts and other Christians in Egypt, you would have us believe otherwise, that most Christians do not suffer persecution there.

As someone who lives in Egypt (is it Cairo?) and therefore knows more than me about events there, what is your reaction to these two fairly recent news articles:

Egyptian State Security Arrests Christians Assaulted By Muslim Mob
18 March 2010

freecopts.net/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1155&Itemid=2

November 10, 2009 Coptic Report Release
CSI Releases Report on Abuse of Christian Women in Egypt

csi-int.org/coptic_report_pr.php?sId=001273012531&sucHL=

i’m sorry it’s a collection of crimes , most of christinas lives in peace
the cases you bring isn’t the norm and not justified by any muslims in egypt

You can live the rest of your life believing this, against the reality of Muslim intolerance and persecution of Christians.

and i’m glad we understanding each other step by step

And may we continue to do so!

Judger

I don’t understand this.

we have the same laws as you

Sorry, but you don’t have the same laws. I did not see Egypt in the list of countries that have hate crime laws on wiki and on a diligent internet search. Please correct me if Egypt in fact has a hate crime law or laws.

no , not in my country
but as a wider view about christians’s history around the world , i know the wrost

Are you talking about the history of Christian persecution of Muslims during the Crusades again?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

my relegion against fanatism

Elwill, you were the one who provide the link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism
to prove “Christian fanaticism”, which happened to provide Islamic fanaticism as well, to have a balanced report.

whatever , you can trust what you read
i’m talking as an eyewitness

Did you witness this?

Anti-Christian Violence in Egypt: Nun Stabbed
Anti-Christian attitudes have not change much over the past 50 years. In October 2005 violence erupted in Alexandria after the Muslim Brotherhood distributed 20,000 copies of a DVD allegedly containing anti-Islamic statements by Copts. Three people were killed, seven churches were damaged and a nun was seriously injured in a knife attack.

From: csi-int.org/egypt_bloodshed_in_the_land.php?sId=01273012531&sucHL=

 

[seraphime2008]

but is that apply to greek and hebrew language according to bible , which means that those christians who don’t speak hebrew or greek are second class either

No…I would never read the gospel in Greek and Hebrew but in my own language, and all Christians believed by reading the translations they don’t get the wrong message of the bible at all. While you always said that whoever doesn’t speak Arabic wouldn’t know the real meaning of Koran like what you have regularly showed to us, you know better whatever those arabic words mean since you’re native.Thus it make my view right (how many muslims in the world exactly know Arabic…? )

this is very good question which should to be followed with another question
does islam allows for anyone to start killing according to his own desire or should it to be by laws ?
by the way , i don’t justify the acts in indonesia , actually what i’m trying to say is that those muslims are participators in causing the fitnah , i actually condemn them , quran actually condemn them .

Tell that to all those muslim clerics and your muslim counterparts. You think that there are not moderate muslims in Indonesia who condemn these acts, there are, but amazingly it never went to the right ear, seems that condemn doesn’t prohibit them since they believe firmly that they were rendering service to their religion… Why, because there are nice verses in Koran and not so nice verses…!

offcourse
tell me , are you have the free will to pay tax for your government ,
in my country if i refused to pay my tax i will go to prison

Let me quote again:9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
*
DOes those words in bold and underline fit the taxing of the government towards the people? Sounds like humiliation towards the Non-Muslim to me… And are people sent to jail if they don’t pay the zakat. I believe there are many muslim friends of mine who paid the zakat less than what they should (they informed me), nevertheless there are no muslim police watch came to prison them…?!

i just test this case to be fit with the verses or not , this case dosn’t fit the verse 9:29

Again, see those verses? Perhaps they are doing the prescription to fight the unbelievers until they pay the jiyzah…?

too many other muslims places acts as the rest of the world inhabitations

Too many reports have been given nowadays about mostly those muslims acts on behalf of Islam showing enmities towards non Muslim.

do you mean that , there is no muslims in the world with good fruits ?
and threir are no christians with bad fruits!

Well, I would say that if muslims are not fanatical, they would tend to act like normal human being driven by desires and needs and governed by the conscience of their own as human being towards other. Once they felt that they have to engage in more devoted actions towards Allah, they seemed to to put themselves different than the rest of the world. The main problem is the Sharia that put them as the cleanest and purest people that they won’t mingle as the other as though they’re holier.

there are civil duties toword visitors and civil duties toward your own people and there are relegious duties
the priorities are differ from person to person . so that i think it’s personal issue

So you agree that those Muslims are good muslims since they priorities their religious duties more than the civil duties? These personal priorities have again undermines the community bond, especially reagarding individual people that unite together to breed the segregation, does it seem like it’s what Islam’s main teaching?

did muslims said that they thinking that other people are dirty shamfull unclean creature ?
or is it another assumption about how muslims think !

So why didn;t they able to mingle with other people in public place like swimming pool?
The reports even tell men and their sons rejected by muslims men for a muslim men only day for swimming in public pool? Why on earth do they need to be separated? They must have thought that other are somewhat different level or what…?

i said that niether peace is absolute nor violence is absolute
i meant that , someone should to be peacefull , but he can’t to be peacefull with crimers or with evildoers for example

The context was that the Muslims are the one who start those malicious actions. Why can’t they just see that people should live as same human beings?

offcourse , muslims wants for islamic rules to be implemented upon them ,

Thank God, only 10 persons muslim in Indonesia would like to have Sharia implemented. The rest are against it, I wonder why? I think those people see that this Sharia doesn’t fit with the time now.

And eh…why are there no muslim majority countries implement the whole Sharia law?
Perhaps they think it would be better for a thief to be punished in jail than having their hands mutilated and won;t able to work again. Perhaps they would also think that all human being could always fell into temptation to be involved in affairs, they couldn’t bear the thinking that one mistake would make them fit for stoning…!!

And one more thing, if sharia is implemented in a secular country, wouldn’t it make a different law applied for different people? Than all the people are not the same in front of the law, there will be segregation again…!

 

[seraphime2008]

which countries inforce jeziah now , the taxs be taken from muslims and christians alike , i think

So the Koran must be wrong! It doesn’t fit the time when people should live in peace!