Re: Youth Director is an Unwed Mother

[YinYangMom]

again, yes God can make good come from anything, but we don’t pimp those positions for that sake. The ministry positions are not to be used for the sake of ministering to the minister… the minister is supposed to minister to the teens, (or the people at mass if a lector, emhc, etc) you are putting the possibility of evangelizing the minister (who should already be evangelized) over the influence and negative problems and scandal of the teens, parents, families and the church.

I’m following your reasoning.

I guess I’m not advocating pimping anything, but I’m reminding others that only God knows what the plan is in this situation.

I resist the temptation to, as one parent, insist that a priest fire or dismiss a minister based on what I observe and not on what I know. That’s just presumptuous on my part.

Let the priest determine what is best for the teens after having discussed the woman’s situation with her and then trust the priest. He will know whether or not the situation is scandalous. If it really is, then the guilt falls on his conscience, not ours and not the woman’s. If it isn’t scandalous then those parents who insist it is - based on what little factual information they have - are guilty of the very scandal they seek to avoid if they go around telling other people how wrong the priest was to let the woman continue to lead. At least that’s how it seems to me.

 

[YinYangMom]

I think it would be a true mark of humility and charity for the youth director to recognize the potential consequences of failing to be a good role model-- and resign her position.

I agree with this. It would be much better if the woman stepped aside this year and returned the following year, if indeed, she has had a conversion of the heart.

 

[jrnami]

Priests differ on many things, and don’t always show good judgement in all things. They are fallable humans.

 

[jrnami]

I agree with this. It would be much better if the woman stepped aside this year and returned the following year, if indeed, she has had a conversion of the heart.

I agree.

 

[agapewolf]

yinyang

I agree its a very sensitive situation. I think I was more speaking about a hypothetical theoretical concept here…putting certain variables out there to be true…

How this actually plays out has the potential to be a very healing situation, or something pretty bad.

 

[YinYangMom]

As I spoke about before…it takes years to form the will…years and years after I really believed that all sexual contact was wrong to actually be able to turn it down…because of the forming of the will

It took you years and years to form the will toward the right path.
It took me but a few moments.
Some saints had an immediate conversion.
Others struggled over time to master that will.
Who knows what other testimonies reveal?
Who knows how long it will take this woman, if it hasn’t already taken place?
God and God alone.

I’m saying neither you nor I or anyone else can set a time frame for true change in will or heart to take hold.

and again, we don’t use the teens to minister to the minister…it happens naturally, but we don’t purposely enter into that situation for its own sake

I agree on that point. I was pointing out the possibility, not saying it has to play out that way. If the priest determines the woman is fit to lead and the parents pull their children out or rally to pressure the priest to change his ruling then the parents are interfering with God’s plan for the woman and those teens. They are putting their will (based on incomplete factual information) before God’s (as revealed through the priest’s ruling based on complete factual information) and that’s just not right.

 

[YinYangMom]

Priests differ on many things, and don’t always show good judgement in all things. They are fallable humans.

Yes, but they are the shepherds of our parishes.
They have been anointed by the Pope and with that received the gifts Jesus gave to the disciples.
We have not been anointed with those same gifts.

If the priest rules fallibly then again, that is on his soul, not ours and not hers.

If we rule fallibly by imposing our will based on incomplete information over that of an anointed of Jesus with complete information then it fall on our souls, not his and not hers.

It’s a matter of respecting the authority and hierarchy of the Church when it comes down to it.

 

[agapewolf]

forming the will IS NOT the same as conversion of heart. Completely different things

A child is brought up in a very loving, faith oriented home, taught chastity from the very beginning and trained in will formation. how to say “no” to things, self-control and everything,

meanwhile, another person grows up in a household empty of faith, will formation, etc…they form destructive, sometimes sinful habits. This allows for demons to enter in and take hold.

This person can have a complete immediate conversion, and become catholic and receive graces, etc. However, short of a TRUE MIRACLE, they still have those habits, addictions, and physiological states to deal with. They never had to say no before.
When put in a compromising position, they have never had the practice of refusing.

a basic analogy of a nicotene addict. someone smokes not knowing its bad for you. One day, immediately, they find out its bad for them. perhaps some can quit immediately…but most not…they have to deal with the addictions, etc

will is not the same as conversion of heart

 

[jrnami]

Yes, but they are the shepherds of our parishes.
They have been anointed by the Pope and with that received the gifts Jesus gave to the disciples.
We have not been anointed with those same gifts.

If the priest rules fallibly then again, that is on his soul, not ours and not hers.

If we rule fallibly by imposing our will based on incomplete information over that of an anointed of Jesus with complete information then it fall on our souls, not his and not hers.

It’s a matter of respecting the authority and hierarchy of the Church when it comes down to it.

Some priests are ignorant regarding childrearing. My priest is naive in this regard. Sorry, I disagree. My priest is very liberal, others are extremely conservative.

 

[YinYangMom]

How this actually plays out has the potential to be a very healing situation, or something pretty bad.

Isn’t that the case for just about every decision man is faced with?
Such is the life we made for ourselves when Adam and Eve determined they knew God’s plan better than he did.

I have such a hard time disobeying a priest’s directive. If he’s right to give it, I’m better off. If he’s wrong, he’s worse off and I’m still innocent in the eyes of God because I obeyed His authority. I may be worse off intellectually and emotionally once I realize the priest led me astray, but I find comfort in knowing I’m not being condemned for his erroneous teachings.

What can I say? I was raised in Catholic schools in California during the 70s. It wasn’t until I began teaching my kids the faith that I found out I had been misled on a **LOT **of things all those years! I know all too well about the fallibility of God’s chosen (priests, nuns and lay persons). That still doesn’t make it right for us to go against them without concrete evidence and proof of the Church’s position and facts surrounding any particular ruling.

Even theoretically, the faithful will rarely have the complete facts in a case involving a priest and those who work for/with him. They will have hearsay, some facts, and innuendo. Those are not solid grounds on which to risk one’s soul, in my opinion.

 

[agapewolf]

I believe in obedience to priests.

I know you used my statement as a springboard to talk about other people’s points, but I’m just clarifying.

Unfortunately, we have priests that teach/live/preach heresy, but at the same time, obedience is important. (unless its sinful)

 

[YinYangMom]

forming the will IS NOT the same as conversion of heart. Completely different things

A child is brought up in a very loving, faith oriented home, taught chastity from the very beginning and trained in will formation. how to say “no” to things, self-control and everything,

meanwhile, another person grows up in a household empty of faith, will formation, etc…they form destructive, sometimes sinful habits. This allows for demons to enter in and take hold.

This person can have a complete immediate conversion, and become catholic and receive graces, etc. However, short of a TRUE MIRACLE, they still have those habits, addictions, and physiological states to deal with. They never had to say no before.

When put in a compromising position, they have never had the practice of refusing.

a basic analogy of a nicotene addict. someone smokes not knowing its bad for you. One day, immediately, they find out its bad for them. perhaps some can quit immediately…but most not…they have to deal with the addictions, etc

will is not the same as conversion of heart

Ok, I kinda see what you’re saying.

First, nicotine and drug addictions are not the same as a willful choice to engage in premarital sex. Nicotine, drugs, and even nymphomaniacs suffer from a real physiological/chemical condition. While the first decision to take a cigarette or drug or engage in sex is a matter of will, if one’s body is inclined toward addictions the body develops the craving which the will cannot subdue without outside treatment (patches, counteractive drugs, hormone therapy).

As for the child being raised in a loving home vs a child raised in a dysfunctional home, now you’re addressing behavioral conditioning. While certainly the conditions you note are conducive to producing young adults who would behave as you noted, it is not a done deal. Many young people with integrity and a strong sense of moral backbone came from dysfunctional homes, and many bratty, disrespectful young people came from loving and stable homes. Just look at how pervasive drug/alcohol/sex/eating disorders is in high society and many ‘white-collar’ suburbs. Demons can enter any place man allows.

This woman in the original post might be pregnant.
This woman is not married.
No one knows if this pregnancy was the result of the very first time she gave in to the temptation of sex. I’ve known several girls who conceived on the first go around.
No one knows if she comes from a loving, stable background or a dysfunctional one.
While I can agree that background may influence her ability to turn her life around I do not believe it is the primary factor.

Bottom line is that it is between the priest and her to determine whether or not she is suitable to lead a youth group.

 

[agapewolf]

Its not a perfect analogy, but there is a basic premise

sidenote: there is a thing such as sexual addiction.

The point I was making was when someone is put in, (or puts themselves in ) the occasion of sin…such as a place that one would be tempted to engage in pre-marital sex…and one gets to the point of being caught up in things…this is where the will kicks in.

of course, the person could also possibly be so new that they don’t even realize they are entering into the occasion of sin…not thinking about it much before hand.

also, again, my points are more theoretical…not of the actual particular situation

 

[agapewolf]

and white collar does NOT equate with a loving and stable home

my example was regard to the formation of the will only

 

[YinYangMom]

Some priests are ignorant regarding childrearing. My priest is naive in this regard. Sorry, I disagree. My priest is very liberal, others are extremely conservative.

I was educated by liberal priests and nuns and I turned out rather well, despite some crazy turns on the side paths. God was with me through it all, I know that now, and I firmly believe I had to go through what I did in order to come to know Him as well as I do now.

What I went through because of the teachings I received from His anointed made me one heck of a parent. I would not trade in any of my life experiences - including the bad ones - because they gave me the faith and confidence I needed to lead my two kids safely into this new millennium of ideals much more dangerous that those I lived through in the 70s.

Even in their liberal teachings and erroneous decisions, God works through his anointed always. It may not become evident until later in life, but it’s there. He’s there. Always. Have faith that everything will work out in the end even if you lose sight of Him from time to time. He is stubborn with mankind in that way. He never gives up on us and he is eternally patient. He also gets His way.

 

[mesquite_magic]

Let’s face it, the most likely thing is that she was not raped. Therefore, she is unqualified to be a youth leader. It doesn’t mean that we should stone her to death, but she should be removed from her post as a youth leader. Let’s not let our desire to be charitable blind us to our responsiblity to our youth. She shouldn’t be viewed as a heroine just because she didn’t get an abortion. Fornication, ending up in an out of wedlock birth isn’t what I want my daughter to emulate.

WOW!!! How Christian of you! Maybe we should string her up and burn her at the stake while we’re at it! So called “Christians” like you, make me sick!

And to think I e-mailed a priest tonight wondering if I’m the bad Catholic… You know, Christian means “Christ Follower”, not Judgemental Bastard. i’m out of here. People like you, make me ashamed to call myself a Catholic!

Kim

 

[agapewolf]

I was educated by liberal priests and nuns and I turned out rather well, despite some crazy turns on the side paths. God was with me through it all, I know that now, and I firmly believe I had to go through what I did in order to come to know Him as well as I do now.

What I went through because of the teachings I received from His anointed made me one heck of a parent. I would not trade in any of my life experiences - including the bad ones - because they gave me the faith and confidence I needed to lead my two kids safely into this new millennium of ideals much more dangerous that those I lived through in the 70s.

Even in their liberal teachings and erroneous decisions, God works through his anointed always. It may not become evident until later in life, but it’s there. He’s there. Always. Have faith that everything will work out in the end even if you lose sight of Him from time to time. He is stubborn with mankind in that way. He never gives up on us an he is eternally patient. He also gets His way.

This is what the paschal mystery is all about. Good can come from anything…however, I’m sure God would have preferred that you come to the same place you are without straying from the path or sinning. Because He could make that happen too,.

 

[YinYangMom]

sidenote: there is a thing such as sexual addiction.

That’s why I included it among nicotine and drugs. It’s a chemically triggered (or is it hormonal?) reaction to sex. Some people need that burst of hormonal release to feel ‘alive’, that’s why I noted those people would require outside assistance to kick the habit (hormone therapy perhaps along with psychotherapy).

…and one gets to the point of being caught up in things…this is where the will kicks in.

I see what you’re saying here. But doesn’t the formation of the will include a properly formed conscience? Such that one first needs to know the difference between right and wrong in order to exercise the will to follow one path or the other? In both scenarios you set the loving home doesn’t ensure a properly formed conscience just as the dysfunctional one ensures a poorly formed conscience.

God works through teachers and peers and other mentors to reveal His truth, and He even reveals His truth directly to a person, should he choose to do so. Remember every human has God’s moral law written into his/her heart so that even if one never physically hears of the Word of God he/she can still know Him.

I try not to underestimate God’s power to move any single person or any group of person’s at any moment in time, despite the obvious unlikelihood such a movement could even take place. If I didn’t, then I wouldn’t have a reason to pray and fast through April 24th in faith that Our Lady of Guadalupe will intercede on Mexico City’s behalf to save it from the evil of legalized abortions.

of course, the person could also possibly be so new that they don’t even realize they are entering into the occasion of sin…not thinking about it much before hand.

I guess I’m inclined to presume such was the case with the youth leader mentioned in this thread. An otherwise good person who made an error in judgment, accepts the consequences of that error (by keeping the child), and hopefully now understands why so many people speak out against premarital sex. But that’s still presumption on my part so I’m just putting it out there.

also, again, my points are more theoretical…not of the actual particular situation

Yeah, I get that.
This really has been a fruitful discussion.

 

[leonie]

I think most people underestimate the power of scandal and of the influence leaders have in their reputations and conduct.

There is a greater impact on people who aren’t as well formed in their faith–this would include teens.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Maybe its been stated before, sorry if it has…

The priest is not the person who has ultimate accountability for our children. This is a responsibility that rests solely on the shoulders of the parents. The Catholic Church and the priest is there to help, but the Church teaches that the parents have ultimate accountability to God for their children’s salvation.

It has been suggested that not following the priest’s direction is interfering with the will of God. Not true. Parents abdicating their responsiblity and authority to the priest, even when they believe he errored, are not answering God’s call to be responsible parents.

Dan