Re: Youth Director is an Unwed Mother

[carol_marie]

In this day and age - with the pressure on our teens to choose abortion over pregnancy - the role modeling an unwed mother portrays is of far greater value to the teens than the role modeling of the single-sexually-active-yet-practicing-ABC-and perhaps abortion model. .
.

Why do we keep giving credit to the woman just because she didn’t get an abortion? Are we really that pathetic that we need to be impressed that someone in a leadership position in our Church would refrain from MURDERING her child? It should be a given that should wouldn’t resort to having an abortion - not a pleasant suprise.

Besides, I don’t believe that the teens would necessarily ever know that their single youth leader was having sex, let alone using ABC - unless she flaunted that and it became public knowledge, in which case, she should be removed as well.

This entire thread makes me appreciate my parish - my Priest would never in a gazzillion years allow an unmarried pregnant woman to lead our youth group. Not on his watch - no way.

Hopefully the OP’s Priest won’t allow it either.

 

[YinYangMom]

Now lets think of everyone who got pregnant before they were married! Are they not fit to raise their child Catholic because they have OBVIOUSLY committed a mortal sin? God lets us who have sinned have a great deal of responsibility.

Secondly, can you who chastize her seriously say you have NEVER committed sexual mortal sin whether it be fornication, pornography, masturbation, adultery, lust in your heart? Can you say that? Should you be stripped of all your religious authority?

Masturbation= mortal sin
fornication= mortal sin
pornography= mortal sin
lust= mortal sin
adulter= mortal sin

So he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

If you have ever masturbated, or had a lustful thought, you are no better off than she!

In defense of JLSacred, it’s not about casting judgment on her personally as much as it is whether or not the circumstances behind her condition warrant her no longer ‘suitable’ to lead the church Youth Group. There is a distinction JLS is making and I admit I tended to overlook that, too.

It still begs to question whether anyone who has ever sinned as you duly noted, would be ‘suitable’ to lead a Catholic youth group. JLS wants only ‘impeccable’ people to fill that role. I think you and I have shown that’s a mighty tall order in this day and age and rather unrealistic, let alone, somewhat uncharitable.

 

[YinYangMom]

Why do we keep giving credit to the woman just because she didn’t get an abortion?

Why do we keep holding the unwed pregnant woman to a different standard than the men/women leading religious ed classes, RCIA, or other lay ministries (including EMHCs) who currently, or used to practice ABC or engage in premarital sex? What about those women who had abortions in the past? What about those men who paid for abortions in the past or worse yet, encouraged and pushed their girlfriends (or wives) at the time into having the abortion?

The woman’s sin was engaging in premarital sex, not getting pregnant. The only difference between her and the others is that her body is revealing a past sin.

What matters as to whether or not she or any other person is ‘suitable’ to lead a youth group is what her beliefs and practices are now, not in the past. Will he/she teach the Truth to the teens?

Besides, I don’t believe that the teens would necessarily ever know that their single youth leader was having sex, let alone using ABC - unless she flaunted that and it became public knowledge, in which case, she should be removed as well.

Ah, but what if the parents knew. Should that parent pull their teen out of group because he/she knows about the person’s past even though the teens do not?

Hopefully the OP’s Priest won’t allow it either.

Here, we agree, it is up to the priest to make the determination. But if the priest chooses to keep the person in that position, would you still pull your teen out of the group because you disagree with the priest’s ruling or will you trust the priest?

 

[carol_marie]

So he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

!

Who said anything about casting stones? We’re talking about whether she should remain in a position of leadership for youth.

Of course we are all sinners… she’s no worse than any of us and thankfully our God is merciful and forgiving. But there are consequences to sin. Just like the person who steals from the church should no longer be in charge of handling the $, she shouldn’t be in charge of providing moral guidance after it becomes obvious she doesn’t live it herself. Especially since we’re talking about sex - teens today are literally bombarded with messages that EVERYONE is doing it - then they come to youth group and see that even their single youth leader does it - what message does that send?

 

[litllulu]

Who said anything about casting stones? We’re talking about whether she should remain in a position of leadership for youth.

Of course we are all sinners… she’s no worse than any of us and thankfully our God is merciful and forgiving. But there are consequences to sin. Just like the person who steals from the church should no longer be in charge of handling the $, she shouldn’t be in charge of providing moral guidance after it becomes obvious she doesn’t live it herself. Especially since we’re talking about sex - teens today are literally bombarded with messages that EVERYONE is doing it - then they come to youth group and see that even their single youth leader does it - what message does that send?

The only point I was trying to make was that THERE IS NO IMPECCABLE PEOPLE OUT THERE!!! Where have you been living, under a rock? Good luck finding a man that has never masturbated or had a lustful thought!
Unfortunately women do carry the burden of being visibly sinners. Remember, St. Joseph was going to divorce her privately due to the outward appearance of the situation. According to your standards she would not have been a candidate for your group.

Pregnancy is not a sin. The problem I personally would have is if the woman did not believe she did anything wrong.

But the next time you are screaning candidates for a Church postition, make sure that man has never masturbated, I bet you won’t have a single person to choose from.

 

[agapewolf]

Or rather, “Wow, the Church really is forgiving.” “The Church really does seek after every last lost sheep bringing it back into the fold.”

Not if that new teen has responsible Catholic parents. Those parents would teach the lesson of mistakes, forgiveness, and learning from others’ mistakes, not let the teen presume the Church condones the behavior and encourages it. The Catholic parent KNOWS the Church’s position and would teach it to their teen.

Pregnancy does not affect a person’s intellect or spirit. If she is strong in her faith, especially after having repented of her sin, then she’s still suitable for the job.

I agree with the earlier poster, however, that if she is not

repentant, doesn’t feel she has done anything wrong, is living with the father out of wedlock, or plans to continue to engage in premarital sex - then those would be the suitability factors which prohibit her from holding onto her post, not the fact that she’s once had sex or that the sex resulted in a pregnancy.*

many to most teens do not have parents exhibiting the faith nor teaching it.

please please please read my past posts…I have addressed many of these issues you raise.

Repentance or not…there are consequences of sin. We have to live with our consequences…

people are equating removal from a highly visible scandalous position with judgement of the soul. It is not the same thing by any means. It is about scandal.

to the poster that says others are no better off than this girl if i’ve EVER done sinful things… that is not necessarily true. This girl is at most 8-9 months removed from the sin. Others may have done their share of sexual deviency, but been 5-10 years removed…had time to form their will, their conscience, seek healing, be able to look back and learn.

As I said before…a single young pregnant woman is hardly the most stable and healthiest situation to be in a moral and faith leadership role. again, as I said before,…this might not mean forever…but for now

There are some people that should be in ministry and some people that shouldn’t. Ministry is not a right.

 

[carol_marie]

Why do we keep holding the unwed pregnant woman to a different standard than the men/women leading religious ed classes, RCIA, or other lay ministries (including EMHCs) who currently, or used to practice ABC or engage in premarital sex? What about those women who had abortions in the past? What about those men who paid for abortions in the past or worse yet, encouraged and pushed their girlfriends (or wives) at the time into having the abortion?

When the teens see their youth leader, they have no idea if she used ABC or had an abortion 5 years ago. But when they see this woman - it’s so OBVIOUS she had sex. I think when mortal sin become public knowledge - that changes everything.

There was another thread a couple weeks ago about a lesbian couple who allowed themselves to be interviewed by the newspaper and the paper printed their picture with ashes on their foreheads as they proudly proclaimed being Catholic. In the article they talked about how they had gotten “married.” When the article was printed - it hit the fan so to speak & their Bishop said no communion for them. They cried foul & said what the heck, we’ve been living together for years & no one said boo - and the Church’s repsonse was, once you went public - you caused scandal.

 

[YinYangMom]

she shouldn’t be in charge of providing moral guidance after it becomes obvious she doesn’t live it herself.

The only thing that is obvious is that at one point she didn’t live by the moral guidelines she is charged to teach.

It is not obvious in her current condition that she has not repented and been guided to the truth through this pregnancy, thus making her a better youth leader than she might have been had she not experienced the consequences of her erroneous ways.

If, at any point, it becomes obvious she has no remorse, believes she did nothing wrong and would advise the teens to follow her wayward example then of course she would not be suitable for the job and should be dismissed of those duties. But being pregnant and unwed doesn’t make that obvious.

Besides, what about the father in all this? Would you let the woman keep her duties if she and he married?

If the reason for her dismissal is because she engaged in premarital sex then, again, there are many others in similar roles and more serious ones who, at one time or another, were guilty of that sin and some others which are worse (including viewing porn and masturbating). It would be unfair to dismiss her and not the others.

The reason for her dismissal must be about her not being married, then, since it couldn’t be the fact she’s pregnant. Otherwise one would have to dismiss all pregnant women, and that’s unreasonable, especially if the woman is married.

But what if the married woman is pregnant with a lover’s child?

Do you see how presumptuous it is for anyone other than the woman and the priest to even question her suitability to lead teens based entirely on the size of her belly?

 

[carol_marie]

But what if the married woman is pregnant with a lover’s child?

?

I’d say nevermind. I think I’ll homeschool my kids in the faith.

 

[agapewolf]

The only thing that is obvious is that at one point she didn’t live by the moral guidelines she is charged to teach.

It is not obvious in her current condition that she has not repented and been guided to the truth through this pregnancy, thus making her a better youth leader than she might have been had she not experienced the consequences of her erroneous ways.

at one point… yes…a short 9 months or less ago!!!

this has grave repercussions of allowing her to be a leader in the church.

again, its NOT ABOUT REPENTANCE and remorse …at all.

its about public scandal. No youth leader should be involved in grave sin of any kind. We should hold them to high standards. This situation unfortunately has a very visible evidence of someone’s past mistakes/sins. that is the consequences of sin…regardless of how sorry someone is

 

[jrnami]

I don’t think it’s casting stones to want a good example to lead a youth group. That sounds like casting stones itsself!

 

[YinYangMom]

many to most teens do not have parents exhibiting the faith nor teaching it.

Well those teens are lost anyway. The parents of those teens would either not consider anything wrong with the teacher leading the group or worse - they could use the situation to teach their children about how wrong the Catholic church is in insisting women bring every life into this world her body will crank out. I could easily hear the lecture such parents would give to the teens about how selfish the woman was to bring this life into the world when she has no means to give it what it deserves, or how scandal could have been avoided and she could have kept her job if only she had chosen the abortion. Her life is ruined now that she’s having a child.

please please please read my past posts…I have addressed many of these issues you raise.

I will do so. I thought I was addressing the comments of JLSacred and Carol Marie.

Repentance or not…there are consequences of sin. We have to live with our consequences…

Becoming a single mother is the consequence, or carrying the child to term and having to hand him/her over to an adoption agency is the other. Is that not enough?

people are equating removal from a highly visible scandalous position with judgement of the soul. It is not the same thing by any means. It is about scandal.

I noted that earlier. I question however, whether rushing to judgement and casting her out is but a different type of scandal in that it misrepresents the teachings of the Church with regard to God’s mercy.

There are so many saints who lived sinful lives before God managed to turn them around. It seems more likely that God would use this woman’s mistake to bring her closer to Him than He would use the mistake to keep her from Him by asking the rest of the sheep to turn her away. Her role as youth leader may very well be the means by which He choses to do so. It wouldn’t be the first time He revealed His truth and love through children.

to the poster that says others are no better off than this girl if i’ve EVER done sinful things… that is not necessarily true. This girl is at most 8-9 months removed from the sin. Others may have done their share of sexual deviency, but been 5-10 years removed…had time to form their will, their conscience, seek healing, be able to look back and learn.

I beg to differ. There are enough EMHCs I know who practice ABC even during their ministry. They are of the thought that family planning is between them and God, not between them and the Church. They honestly do not believe they are sinning and therefore believe they are worthy to help distribute the Eucharist. Besides, no one knows who’s a slave to pornography or masturbation and based on posts in this very forum apparently that nasty habit is quite pervasive.

As I said before…a single young pregnant woman is hardly the most stable and healthiest situation to be in a moral and faith leadership role. again, as I said before,…this might not mean forever…but for now.

There are some people that should be in ministry and some people that shouldn’t. Ministry is not a right.

On this, I see your point. Perhaps it would be wise for the woman to remove herself from her duties to allow ample time to reflect on what has transpired and how that might influence what and how she leads these teens.

However, God uses the lay ministry to bring people closer to Him. He has often chosen the unworthy to assume leadership roles within His church, as the one poster already noted Peter as the prime example (there are many other saints we can look to).

God moves us to volunteer in lay ministry roles. We respond even when we don’t believe we have the skills or are even worthy. What happens to us once we begin our ministry can be transforming. It was for me. When I began my volunteer work I was more pro-choice than pro-life, but through my time spent with other lay ministers and various church programs God revealed the Truth about all that to me and I was changed. These teens the woman will lead may very well be how God chooses to change her heart. We have no idea what God’s plan is.

Bottom line, it’s HIS Church. Leave it between the woman and the priest (His representative) to help discern how God wishes to use this situation to reveal His truth - either to her or to her and the teens.

 

[YinYangMom]

When the teens see their youth leader, they have no idea if she used ABC or had an abortion 5 years ago. But when they see this woman - it’s so OBVIOUS she had sex. I think when mortal sin become public knowledge - that changes everything.

There was another thread a couple weeks ago about a lesbian couple who allowed themselves to be interviewed by the newspaper and the paper printed their picture with ashes on their foreheads as they proudly proclaimed being Catholic. In the article they talked about how they had gotten “married.” When the article was printed - it hit the fan so to speak & their Bishop said no communion for them. They cried foul & said what the heck, we’ve been living together for years & no one said boo - and the Church’s repsonse was, once you went public - you caused scandal.

In the latter situation, this couple’s sin was not in the past. They are married, continue to live as married, and wish to receive the sacraments.

In the prior situation where is the scandal? Her body only reveals a past sin. No one here in this conversation knows what her state of mind is on the matter.

You see her being pregnant as being the trigger for scandal within the church.

I see her being pregnant as being the trigger for evangelization within the church.

It depends on her position today, not what it was three or four months ago. **IF **she has learned from the situation, has received absolution and promises to teach the Truth to the children then the pregnancy is a non-issue. IF she sees nothing wrong with what she did and speaks openly about how premarital sex is not that big of a deal so long as you don’t abort or better yet, remember to use ABC, then that’s an entirely different matter and she most certainly should not be allowed to lead teens.

 

[YinYangMom]

I’d say nevermind. I think I’ll homeschool my kids in the faith.

LOL A wise decision.

Sadly, what I suggested is not that much of a reach.

 

[leonie]

I’ve started several posts on this thread. I’m a little dumbstruck that the compassion for the youth minister is at the expense of those who would be influenced by her.

I think those who are inclined to leave the unwed mother in the position of authority over teens **underestimate **the power of scandal.

I think it would be a true mark of humility and charity for the youth director to recognize the potential consequences of failing to be a good role model-- and resign her position.

What we do, or even what we are perceived to do, can really impact those who are just beginning to form their faith and conscience.

 

[agapewolf]

Well those teens are lost anyway. The parents of those teens would either not consider anything wrong with the teacher leading the group or worse - they could use the situation to teach their children about how wrong the Catholic church is in insisting women bring every life into this world her body will crank out. I could easily hear the lecture such parents would give to the teens about how selfish the woman was to bring this life into the world when she has no means to give it what it deserves, or how scandal could have been avoided and she could have kept her job if only she had chosen the abortion. Her life is ruined now that she’s having a child.

I refuse to say that “those teens are lost anyway”. we have to do all we can in every way we can. Teens have the power to transform their families, I’ve seen it myself…but when our leaders are not above reproach…and not concerned with scandal…makes so many strikes against it and even more difficult task

I will do so. I thought I was addressing the comments of JLSacred and Carol Marie.

Becoming a single mother is the consequence, or carrying the child to term and having to hand him/her over to an adoption agency is the other. Is that not enough?

I noted that earlier. I question however, whether rushing to judgement and casting her out is but a different type of scandal in that it misrepresents the teachings of the Church with regard to God’s mercy.

again, its NOT rushing to judgement…we aren’t talking about her soul. We are not “Casting her out”… its about suitability for a job (and yes, even volunteering is a job)

There are so many saints who lived sinful lives before God managed to turn them around. It seems more likely that God would use this woman’s mistake to bring her closer to Him than He would use the mistake to keep her from Him by asking the rest of the sheep to turn her away. Her role as youth leader may very well be the means by which He choses to do so. It wouldn’t be the first time He revealed His truth and love through children.

God can make good come from anything even sin…sure. But we don’t enter into sin knowing God can make good can come from it. Putting this girl in a youth ministry position for that reason, means she is ministering OUT OF NEED…that is a HUGE no-no. I have benefited from my youth work, sure, but I sure wasn’t there because I needed to feel needed or wanted, or liked, or forgiven or anything. We cannot abuse the position of youth minister like that. The youth minister works for the sake of the teens, not the other way around.

I beg to differ. There are enough EMHCs I know who practice ABC even during their ministry. They are of the thought that family planning is between them and God, not between them and the Church. They honestly do not believe they are sinning and therefore believe they are worthy to help distribute the Eucharist. Besides, no one knows who’s a slave to pornography or masturbation and based on posts in this very forum apparently that nasty habit is quite pervasive.

And this is very very sad, and shouldn’t be ministering…they really need to be ministered TO.

On this, I see your point. Perhaps it would be wise for the woman to remove herself from her duties to allow ample time to reflect on what has transpired and how that might influence what and how she leads these teens.

However, God uses the lay ministry to bring people closer to Him. He has often chosen the unworthy to assume leadership roles within His church, as the one poster already noted Peter as the prime example (there are many other saints we can look to).

God moves us to volunteer in lay ministry roles. We respond even when we don’t believe we have the skills or are even worthy. What happens to us once we begin our ministry can be transforming. It was for me. When I began my volunteer work I was more pro-choice than pro-life, but through my time spent with other lay ministers and various church programs God revealed the Truth about all that to me and I was changed. These teens the woman will lead may very well be how God chooses to change her heart. We have no idea what God’s plan is.

.

again, yes God can make good come from anything, but we don’t pimp those positions for that sake. The ministry positions are not to be used for the sake of ministering to the minister… the minister is supposed to minister to the teens, (or the people at mass if a lector, emhc, etc) you are putting the possibility of evangelizing the minister (who should already be evangelized) over the influence and negative problems and scandal of the teens, parents, families and the church.

 

[YinYangMom]

its about public scandal. No youth leader should be involved in grave sin of any kind. We should hold them to high standards. This situation unfortunately has a very visible evidence of someone’s past mistakes/sins. that is the consequences of sin…regardless of how sorry someone is

How does anyone know how much time it takes for a person to experience a conversion of the heart? Who says it takes at least 9 months? I can attest that in my case it often happened like a whack in the head in an instant, and because of my nature it took a series of whacks over time at that.

Never presume to know God’s timing in how/when he reveals Himself to others. My teen children were the instruments of my whackings from God. It’s quite possible these teens will be His instrument in this case as well. Only God knows.

I don’t think it’s casting stones to want a good example to lead a youth group. That sounds like casting stones itself!

Precisely. Consider that these teens, or the majority of them in any youth group, are already living in sin. Fortunately because they do not have **full **knowledge and some of the sins are habitual at this point they aren’t in mortal danger - yet - but time is running out on them for soon they will have that knowledge.

When that knowledge gets revealed to them by the Holy Spirit through whomever he chooses (could be the pregnant youth leader, could be a priest, could be the youth leader’s replacement, could be a neighbor) they are going to feel soooo unworthy and soooo lost. Like Adam and Eve after they ate the apple, shame will finally enter the heart of these kids in an instant.

Their first instinct will be to leave the church or at least hide from Her. They will struggle to believe the teachings of scripture and tradition that God’s mercy is unfathomable and one only needs to repent and ask Him for his forgiveness in order for them to be welcomed into the Kingdom. Here, their teacher would be kicked out of the (k)ingdom (local parish ministry) for one sin even though she received absolution for it and resolved not to live that way any longer (as did Mary Magdalene).

Remember that youth take in much more from what they see that what they hear. You can quote verse after verse and catechism citation after citation encouraging them not to despair for their sinfulness and seek absolution through reconciliation, but they will only see the image of the woman who was cast from them and remember why. If what happens in the church is a sample of what happens in heaven, then why should they believe they will be welcomed into heaven after seeing what the church did to their teacher?

 

[jrnami]

I’ve started several posts on this thread. I’m a little dumbstruck that the compassion for the youth minister is at the expense of those who would be influenced by her.

I think those who are inclined to leave the unwed mother in the position of authority over teens **underestimate **the power of scandal.

I think it would be a true mark of humility and charity for the youth director to recognize the potential consequences of failing to be a good role model-- and resign her position.

What we do, or even what we are perceived to do, can really impact those who are just beginning to form their faith and conscience.

 

[agapewolf]

How does anyone know how much time it takes for a person to experience a conversion of the heart? Who says it takes at least 9 months? I can attest that in my case it often happened like a whack in the head in an instant, and because of my nature it took a serious of whacks over time at that.

Never presume to know God’s timing in how/when he reveals Himself to others. My teen children were the instruments of my whackings from God. It’s quite possible these teens will be His instrument in this case as well. Only God knows.

I addressed this in an earlier post. We are not talking about conversion of heart…yes, it could happen instantaneously. we are talking about the time and distance that it takes…unless by a true miracle, to heal, get perspective, and form the conscience and FORM THE WILL!!! I cannot stress that enough. As I spoke about before…it takes years to form the will…years and years after I really believed that all sexual contact was wrong to actually be able to turn it down…because of the forming of the will

and again, we don’t use the teens to minister to the minister…it happens naturally, but we don’t purposely enter into that situation for its own sake

 

[jrnami]

I addressed this in an earlier post. We are not talking about conversion of heart…yes, it could happen instantaneously. we are talking about the time and distance that it takes…unless by a true miracle, to heal, get perspective, and form the conscience and FORM THE WILL!!! I cannot stress that enough. As I spoke about before…it takes years to form the will…years and years after I really believed that all sexual contact was wrong to actually be able to turn it down…because of the forming of the will

and again, we don’t use the teens to minister to the minister…it happens naturally, but we don’t purposely enter into that situation for its own sake

I agree