Re: Youth Director is an Unwed Mother

[whatevergirl]

whatevergirl,

she’s not a candidate…she’s the actual youth minister. It happened while she was in the current position.

ok–stop the presses.
can i delete everything i said previously? ha!
no, just kidding…but, that does change the landscape a bit. Hmmm…where’s the guy in this? If this was a long-term relationship…where’s he? If he wasn’t…does she sleep around? That might be the notion the kids get then, if there’s no man around. If I had to make a split second decision–the girl is already working there–I probably would ask her to step down, knowing this now. I thought she was applying for the job, was already pregnant…and was selected.

Listen to me…I sound like a busy body.

 

[whatevergirl]

Mary I understand your concerns and that you have explained things about the girl’s pregnancy to your daughter, but tell me aren’t you using double standards. ? You acknowledge the young girl’s courage in continuing her pregnancy, yet you now want her hidden away because she is not not a good example.
If enough of you parents protest and the priest requests her withdrawal before this girl herself understands that she needs to retire for her and the baby’s health, then the victimisation begins for her. Even within her own miliue, the catholic group.
I would hav thought that she would be up held as a great example of some one making a difficult decision and making it the right way. In favour of life. Sorry I dont agree with you that she should be asked to withdraw and hide in shame.
Grace Angel.

Hi Grace…thank you for your prayers in my thread asking for prayers…I appreciate that.

Regarding this thread…not sure if anyone is saying to hide in shame, but now knowing the whole story–I mean, it’s not a ‘regular’ job…it’s a job where the person teaching, should try his/her hardest to uphold some morality. Now, granted…I have stood by that if she is remorseful, she should be allowed to stay. But, the problem with it all is this…you have someone who is teaching xyz to kids, yet doesn’t necessarily follow what she is teaching/preaching. That is really probably more of the dilemma here, than the actual sin, itself. It would be no different than if she stole, or committed adultery as a married woman. You don’t want to shun someone, but at the same time–the kids may also get a mixed message thinking…gee, she was telling us not to sleep with guys before marriage, and here she is…etc…etc…

I see both sides. I feel for the woman…I understand the posters who feel she should step down.

This one is definitely not a black or white situation.

 

[agapewolf]

An additional thought here…with the way teenagers are:

They can be taught, and might come to even believe that pre-marital sex is wrong. But I will tell you, not many of them actually believe that chastity is doable. It’s becoming better, due to programs like Lifeteen and the like, but even then, the core members in youth ministry are expected to live out the teachings. They have the role models showing them that chastitiy is possible.

They see “Everyone is doing it”, and our world is shouting at them that you don’t need any self-control at all. Instant gratification, etc. If you can’t find a model at the church in the express position of a model, then where can you find them?

 

[Julianna]

Hi Grace…thank you for your prayers in my thread asking for prayers…I appreciate that.

Regarding this thread…not sure if anyone is saying to hide in shame, but now knowing the whole story–I mean, it’s not a ‘regular’ job…it’s a job where the person teaching, should try his/her hardest to uphold some morality. Now, granted…I have stood by that if she is remorseful, she should be allowed to stay. But, the problem with it all is this…you have someone who is teaching xyz to kids, yet doesn’t necessarily follow what she is teaching/preaching. That is really probably more of the dilemma here, than the actual sin, itself. It would be no different than if she stole, or committed adultery as a married woman. You don’t want to shun someone, but at the same time–the kids may also get a mixed message thinking…gee, she was telling us not to sleep with guys before marriage, and here she is…etc…etc…

I see both sides. I feel for the woman…I understand the posters who feel she should step down.

This one is definitely not a black or white situation.

How would you or anyone else “know” if she was remorseful? Should she stand up in front of the church and tell her whole story? All juicy details? Let’s leave that in confession and between her and God…where it should be.,

 

[whatevergirl]

An additional thought here…with the way teenagers are:

They can be taught, and might come to even believe that pre-marital sex is wrong. But I will tell you, not many of them actually believe that chastity is doable. It’s becoming better, due to programs like Lifeteen and the like, but even then, the core members in youth ministry are expected to live out the teachings. They have the role models showing them that chastitiy is possible.

They see “Everyone is doing it”, and our world is shouting at them that you don’t need any self-control at all. Instant gratification, etc. If you can’t find a model at the church in the express position of a model, then where can you find them?

That’s true.

 

[whatevergirl]

How would you or anyone else “know” if she was remorseful? Should she stand up in front of the church and tell her whole story? All juicy details? Let’s leave that in confession and between her and God…where it should be.,

yes–I said I feel for both sides. I am torn with the whole thing…

 

[agapewolf]

Also, most job descriptions for a youth minister have in them that the requirement of the job is to live out the teachings of the church and not be involved in serious sin.

 

[maryjk]

No, if she were raped that is different - totally. She can held up as a great example to the kids - someone they should emmulate - someone who does the right thing despite terrible circumstances.

But only if she tells everyone that she was raped. Do you know the stats on women that report rape? Imagine how hard it must be to tell the police. But now you want her to tell the parish. :dts:

actabuse.com/SAstatistics.html

Only an estimated 16% of rapes are ever reported to law enforcement. (National Victim Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, 1992.

 

[Julianna]

But only if she tells everyone that she was raped. Do you know the stats on women that report rape? Imagine how hard it must be to tell the police. But now you want her to tell the parish. :dts:

yeah, go figure.

actabuse.com/SAstatistics.html

 

[seekerz]

I choose not to comment on the young woman’s particular circumstances since I don’t know her. If I did, it would seem reasonable to draw her aside for a private chat. Any parent of the youth she’s responsible for would seem to have that right (or even obligation).

On a general note, it does seem to me that we Catholics really have to examine ourselves for a double standard which has existed from time immemorial. Pregancy is never a sin - never has been, never will be; married or not. Fornication is the sin, which, since it’s committed in private can (and usually is) hidden.

To ask someone to reliquish a position based on what we can see seems to fly in the face of Jesus’ teachings on and attitude to sin and sinners. Why was a woman of ill-repute allowed to wash his feet and then have her story repeated to all Christians till the end of time? What her host saw as a scandal, Christ used as a lesson for us all, impressionable youth included: no matter how terrible your sin, you can still become an example of Christian love. Repentance is what is important, nothing else.

How much do we know of the real sins of those impeccable role models that we seek for our kids? Can we see into their hearts, their bedrooms or their computers? How many impeccable public figures have to be caught in sin before we understand what the only Impeccable One is trying to teach us?

To be completely honest, I’d feel uncomfortable as a parent of one of those young people. But that very discomfort is what causes me to look deeper…

By the way, to the poster much earlier who wondered about oohing and aahing over the baby when it’s born: every child deserves to be oohed and aahed over - as we say often on this board, every child is a precious gift from God.

 

[carol_marie]

I
To ask someone to reliquish a position based on what we can see seems to fly in the face of Jesus’ teachings on and attitude to sin and sinners. Why was a woman of ill-repute allowed to wash his feet and then have her story repeated to all Christians till the end of time? What her host saw as a scandal, Christ used as a lesson for us all, impressionable youth included: no matter how terrible your sin, you can still become an example of Christian love. Repentance is what is important, nothing else.

.

I’m only quoting you because you’ve expressed what so many others have expressed in this thread - if she is sorry … that’s enough - end of story. It’s not our place to question.

I’m wondering if the same would apply to a Priest who is caught fooling around with a teenager? May he remain in his position? Let’s assume it was a mutual relationship - between a boy of 18 and a 27 year old Priest… and it becomes public knowledge to the parish for whatever reason. Should everyone just say that’s between him & his confessor and carry on as normal or do you believe the Priest caused scandal and should be removed from that Parish?

I am not trying to pick a fight here - I have found this entire thread facinating in that we seem to be divided on opposite sides. I’m trying to understand the other side (she should stay) so I’m wondering if a line is ever drawn?

 

[agapewolf]

How much do we know of the real sins of those impeccable role models that we seek for our kids? Can we see into their hearts, their bedrooms or their computers? How many impeccable public figures have to be caught in sin before we understand what the only Impeccable One is trying to teach us?

I know we don’t honestly know directly and immediately what sins people commit that are in ministerial roles, but trust me, it comes out in the wash. It will effect their ministry, their conscience, the people they minister too. Think about a priest…if he stops praying… immediately, it won’t effect much, but down the line… the overall difference of everythign would be huge

By the way, to the poster much earlier who wondered about oohing and aahing over the baby when it’s born: every child deserves to be oohed and aahed over - as we say often on this board, every child is a precious gift from God.

But think about the teen girls… how many teen girls who are in such low self-esteem…see all the attention this is getting, and decide it isn’t so bad to be like that.*

 

[JLSacred]

I’m only quoting you because you’ve expressed what so many others have expressed in this thread - if she is sorry … that’s enough - end of story. It’s not our place to question.

I’m wondering if the same would apply to a Priest who is caught fooling around with a teenager? May he remain in his position? Let’s assume it was a mutual relationship - between a boy of 18 and a 27 year old Priest… and it becomes public knowledge to the parish for whatever reason. Should everyone just say that’s between him & his confessor and carry on as normal or do you believe the Priest caused scandal and should be removed from that Parish?

I am not trying to pick a fight here - I have found this entire thread facinating in that we seem to be divided on opposite sides. I’m trying to understand the other side (she should stay) so I’m wondering if a line is ever drawn?

Very well stated, Carol Marie. I just don’t understand why people don’t see the point. Incidentally, the Church also teaches that we remain responsible for the effects of sin, even after forgiveness. This is why Purgatory is necessary, because we still carry a burden for the effects of sins we have committed, even after we have gone to confession. This is a very Catholic concept.

The Protestant concept of being wiped clean as a whistle by the blood of Jesus isn’t really in line with our Church’s teaching. We are still responsible for the effects of our sin, even after we have been forgiven. We can work some of that off in our lifetime through indulgences and penances, but much of it must continue to be cleansed from us in Purgatory.

 

[maryjk]

I’m wondering if the same would apply to a Priest who is caught fooling around with a teenager? May he remain in his position? Let’s assume it was a mutual relationship - between a boy of 18 and a 27 year old Priest… and it becomes public knowledge to the parish for whatever reason. Should everyone just say that’s between him & his confessor and carry on as normal or do you believe the Priest caused scandal and should be removed from that Parish?

By caught, you mean that you would know for sure that the priest was having a sexual relationship with a man? ( At 18, I wouldn’t consider him a boy.) Truly caught? Not just some people gossiping about what they think has happened?

Because that is what is happening here. Gossiping about what people think happened. They think this person is pregnant. They think she was having sexual relations while unwed. They do not know, because they have not talked to the priest or to the woman.

Now, in the situation that you pose. A priest has taken vows or at least made promises of obedience and chastity. By having a homosexual relationship, he has broken his vows or promises. By calling it a relationship, it isn’t something that happened one time. He wasn’t forced to have sex with another man. The relationship was a choice. These are things we don’t know about the youth director. So we are in effect comparing apples to oranges.

But, it would be up to the Bishop as to whether the priest should leave his post. Just like it is up to the priest whether this woman should leave her post.

All I am saying is that we cannot say she should leave her post without knowing the whole situation. And we may never know the whole situation.

The OP may go to the priest and find out that the youth director had been raped, or had one night of loosing control. It may be that the priest cannot share what happened, but is satisfied that the youth director can stay. At what point is her life no longer private? Should she have to get up at Mass and tell everyone what happened? Or would that not satisfy some?

 

[agapewolf]

Maryjk,

Please read all past posts… You will see that there are 2 discussions…one is the practical for the situation, the other is regarding a hypothetical situation with certain assumptions made.

and yes, this girl was “caught” (in the hypothetical situation)…its not a matter of gossip, its a real situation.

 

[Mary3]

Thank you all for your valuable insights. It is some comfort to know that I’m not alone in feeling conflicted about this poor girl and her (our) situation. A brief response to a few of your questions and comments.

Am I SURE she’s pregnant and not just gaining weight? She’s a trim young woman who is either pregnant or has a rapidly growing tumor of the abdomen only. No other weight gain.

Could she have been raped? Sure. She also has a boyfriend with whom she strolls the parish halls while holding his hand and looking soulfully into his eyes.

Do I think she should be punished or hidden away? I hope I did not imply that, as I surely don’t feel that way. The fact is that she has become a source of public scandal. This is not just any 'ol private sinful behavior, but she holds a visible position of responsibility for a few hundred teenagers. Her job duties entail the teaching of Catholic doctrine. We have an active pro-life ministry as well as an active chastity education program. She is giving a public example that is contrary to the job she was hired to do. While I applaud her courage in not compounding her problems with an abortion, her actions are interpreted by the teens as “chastity is not really do-able, just like we suspected”.

Could I remove my child and go elsewhere? Sure. But we won’t be able to run from every worrisome situation for the rest of our lives. And my daughter may already be disheartened enough without pulling her away from friends she’s known since preschool.

There are certainly unknown details to this story. I’m glad to not be the pastor when things like this occur. God bless our priests…what a difficult job they have. I don’t know what a good solution would be, but I lean toward this one, assuming this is a pregnancy, and it occurred due to fornication.

First choice, the youth leader shows incredible courage and addresses the children with great transparency (not talking graphic details or too much info, OK?). She tells them what she has learned from this experience, and how she would do things differently if she could. She reiterates the value of a chaste life, and muses on the cost of abandoning that teaching of our faith. And she also talks about the immense value of every life, and why she decided to do the right thing and allow her baby to live. Then she makes herself available for questions, public or private, for the rest of this school year (which is thankfully near a close). Hopefully, she has the good sense to find another job over the summer break.

My second choice, if she could not muster such a baring of the soul, would be that she reassigns to an office job until the baby is born. I would never advocate that she be summarily terminated, and it’s also probably illegal. If she cannot ‘come clean’ to some degree with the youth, she probably should not return to that job.

My last choice is that CCD is over in 3 weeks, and we’re done till September. One poster noted that there may be secret agendas in progress to transition her to another place. We wait and see what happens regarding her continued employment in this role, and weigh the decision about whether to return after the summer.

Thanks again for your very wise (name removed by moderator)ut.
:grouphug:

 

[carol_marie]

Thanks Mary3 for the add’l info. I think she is pregnant by her boyfriend. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck… it’s probably a duck. It bugs me that the rape thing gets thrown out there everytime a pro-abortion person wants to justify themselves. They always say, “What about the rape victim?” Just like the VAST majority of abortions are not because of rape, the VAST majority of women get pregnant because they chose to have sex.

I stand by my original opinion that she should have the good sense to step down from her position. That would, without question, be in the best interest of the kids and the parish.

If she was unwilling to do that, I think it shows a complete lack of concern for anyone but herself and THAT alone does not make for a good role model for the kids.

If it were me, and she was my children’s youth leader, I would ask to speak to her privately and I would ask her if she was expecting. This is when I am CERTAIN that she is showing - and I mean 100% certain - not just a little pooch - but a big pregnant tummy. If she said yes, I would express my concern that she was setting a bad example for the kids (having unmarried sex) and if she was not planning on quitting, I’d pull my kids from the program. I would not make a big fuss or discuss it with others - but MY kids would not be under her direction for all the reasons I stated in my previous posts.

And I would be very sad about the whole mess.

 

[Spirithound]

I disagree simply because it may never become known that he has fathered a child. He CAN HIDE that reality. So, just like the male high school students who are expectant fathers, he’ll be able to maintain his status, while she’ll have to give up her’s (in h.s. girls who are pregnant near graduation and/or prom are not allowed to attend these public events, but the boys who are the expectant fathers are allowed because they don’t cause a “visible” scandal).

You’re clearly not a member of the Ottawa Catholic youth community. We all know each other quite well, and if my (hypothetical) male Youth Co-ordinator (hypothetical cuz the current YC is a woman) got his girlfriend pregnant, we would all know about it. Unless, of course, he had constantly locked her up in their house, which we had never visited, in which case he should be dismissed, and will be once we learn of her.
I can’t attest to highschool policy, but i can speak for the situation involving a male teen and his girlfriend, who got pregnant. We are still welcoming them in charity, but we (depending on the level of our relationship with him), are holding him to his new duties as a father.

 

[Spirithound]

You would take away his pay and support? Now, not only doesn’t he have a job, his girlfriend is pregnant and there is no money coming in. Yeah, then I think the parish should help him out since they took his job away.

So he could be her boyfriend, still preside as a youth director, if the child was not his?

Always about the offender, never about the youth, eh? Do you want your son learning that it’s ok to have sex outside of marriage? And I never said that the parish shouldn’t help them out. Not because they “took his job away”, but because helping out the less fortunate is a good thing for a Catholic parish to do.

Theoretically, yes the man could still be the youth director if the child was not his. But, on the average salary of a youth director…maybe not.

 

[Spirithound]

You would take away his pay and support? Now, not only doesn’t he have a job, his girlfriend is pregnant and there is no money coming in. Yeah, then I think the parish should help him out since they took his job away.

So he could be her boyfriend, still preside as a youth director, if the child was not his?

Always about the offender, never about the youth, eh? Do you want your son learning that it’s ok to have sex outside of marriage? And I never said that the parish shouldn’t help them out. Not because they “took his job away”, but because helping out the less fortunate is a good thing for a Catholic parish to do.

Theoretically, yes the man could still be the youth director if the child was not his. But, on the average salary of a youth director…maybe not.