Referendum this coming Friday 25th May in Ireland

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If you didn’t know what the phrase’s connotative meaning was, then that’s on you. People don’t always speak literally.

It means “God’s gonna do what God’s gonna do to fix it, and we’re gonna do what we can to help.” Better?
 
Because the sins of humanity can delay God’s plans for salvation.
 
wkj_123 said:
Just because someone doesn’t believe in God, doesn’t mean they are for abortion. I for one am fully opposed to it.
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Yes indeed, I have an atheist friend who is pro-life. From a scientific point of view, human life begins at conception, and if you think it is wrong to deliberately kill innocent human beings, then regardless of your religious beliefs (or otherwise) it logically follows that abortion is wrong.
 
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Bradskii said:
So abortion being allowed is, in a way you don’t understand but do appreciate, God’s will. You should celebrate God’s will being done whatever the outcome.
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No. That’s not what I said at all. It is NOT God’s will. God does not force himself on us. If the majority vote for abortion then he will not interfere. We weep what we sew. But God often makes good out of bad.

Everyone who votes yes for abortion is risking their eternity in hell. Plain and simple.

When we pray to for God to intercede, and help us make the right decisions. However, God typically speaks to us via prayer and reading of the Scriptures. If a person voter isn’t praying and reading the Scriptures, asking God for help with the vote, then they are most likely not going to hear God.

Typically, God meets us on the way. But we have to be looking and listening for God.
 
phil19034 said:
if the vote is no to abortion, then we will claim our prayer was answered the way we wanted it to be answered.

If the vote is yes to abortion, then we will know that our prayers were answered in a way we don’t understand.
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Cool! Let’s play the game with the following rule: “We toss a coin. If the result is ‘heads’, I win. If the result is ‘tails’, you lose.”

Faites vos jeux, Madame et Monsieur… Banque ouvert!
 
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman said:
Stop trying to trick us into saying that abortion is God’s will.
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I am sorry to announce but you need to learn: “Abortion is part of God’s permissive will”. If God really, really, really did not want something (abortion included) to happen, then it would NOT happen. Nothing can happen against God’s will. So you only have two choices: 1) either God wants abortions to happen, or 2) God does not really care if abortion happens or not.

And the same applies to every event, from the Holocaust, to the “original sin”, the “fall of humanity”… all of them are part of God’s will… (active or permissive… we shall never know).
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman said:
Because the sins of humanity can delay God’s plans for salvation.
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So God is not sovereign any more… we can “make” him to change his plans.
 
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This is, essentially, the problem of evil. The solution is that God apparently values the preservation of will in a greater, absolute way than he “values” the abuse of the will in the commission of sin.

It creates a god that can dislike abortion, but still places greater value on the preservation of free moral agency to get one.
 
If somebody’s forced to love God and do God’s will, they don’t really love God. That’s why free agency is important.
 
Sophia said:
So you only have two choices: 1) either God wants abortions to happen, or 2) God does not really care if abortion happens or not.
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What’s not what permissive will means.

Let’s look at this from a parenting view. Let’s say my I keep telling my son to stop doing something because he might get hurt, but he doesn’t listen. So finally, I decide “fine, I’ll let him learn the hard way” and he does what I kept telling him not to and he get gets hurt.

Was it my will that he gets hurt? No. But did I choose not to intervene when I could have done something to keep him from getting hurt? Yes.

God’s permissive will is similar to that. Sometimes (if not often) humans (children and adults) have to learn lessons the hard way. It is the sin of pride. We want to do things ourselves and we don’t like listening to our elders, who have already learned those lessons the hard way. Because for some stupid reason, the younger generations always think they are smarter than the older generations. I don’t just mean when they are in the 20s, but even when they are 70 years old, they still think they are smarter than the people who came before them.

God Bless
 
This problem is divergent. It will not end by vote or Supreme Court ruling. Prayers are needed all the time.
 
But that’s not accurate. We are forced to love God. If you don’t then you get to burn for eternity. What choice does a sane person have? If someone says give me your money or I will torture you, then we say that person was forced to give over their money.
 
You can make the choice not to. God never puts a gun to our head and forces us to love Him, but neither does He throw us into hell if we don’t. It just happens that the side effect of rejecting God is eternal anguish.
 
In my opinion the Church is partly to blame for this. The scandals involving the Church has led to the sentiment that the Church has betrayed the Irish people.
 
Vonsalza said:
This is, essentially, the problem of evil. The solution is that God apparently values the preservation of will in a greater, absolute way than he “values” the abuse of the will in the commission of sin.

It creates a god that can dislike abortion, but still places greater value on the preservation of free moral agency to get one.
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So, what is the problem? If allowing abortion is superior to preventing it - in the name of “free will”, then why do you attempt to supersede God’s will? Do you consider yourself superior to God? Fortunately we are NOT like God. If we see a terrorist, who is about to detonate a dirty bomb, AND we are in the position to prevent it, we do. And to hell with the “free will” of the terrorist.

As a matter of fact, the “problem of evil” has no solution. It is just another form of the Euthyphro dilemma.
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman said:
If somebody’s forced to love God and do God’s will, they don’t really love God. That’s why free agency is important.
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Nonsense. I do not “love” God, (actually, I have no idea what it means to ‘love’ God), but from that it does not follow that I would even contemplate torture, murder and mayhem. On the other hand, the members of the Inquisition “loved” God, and had no problem with torturing and burning the “heathens” - and believing that the torture was in the heathens’ best interest - to help them to renounce the devil.
phil19034 said:
What’s not what permissive will means.

Let’s look at this from a parenting view. Let’s say my I keep telling my son to stop doing something because he might get hurt, but he doesn’t listen. So finally, I decide “fine, I’ll let him learn the hard way” and he does what I kept telling him not to and he get gets hurt.

Was it my will that he gets hurt? No. But did I choose not to intervene when I could have done something to keep him from getting hurt? Yes.
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It was the result of your “permissive” will. It means that you did not care enough to prevent it. A good parent NEVER allows the child to perform an act with LETHAL consequences. Minor stuff, certainly - so the child can learn from his mistakes. If you allow the act with FATAL consequences, you cannot claim that you “loved” that child. You did NOT CARE.

Oh, by the way, are you ready to play the game I suggested?
 
Sophia said:
It was the result of your “permissive” will. It means that you did not care enough to prevent it.
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Again, it’s not that I didn’t care enough to prevent it. But rather that I felt the lesson learned was of more value to the child.
Sophia said:
A good parent NEVER allows the child to perform an act with LETHAL consequences. Minor stuff, certainly - so the child can learn from his mistakes
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And here is the second part… a good parent doesn’t let a CHILD perform acts with lethal consequences. Keyword - a CHILD.

When parents have adult offspring who are criminals, there comes a point where the parent can no longer prevent them from doing what is dangerous, illegal, immoral, etc.

It’s the same thing with God. If we don’t pray and read scripture, then we will not hear God speaking to us. God typically works though the natural world He created, not though the Supernatural. And even when He does act thought the Supernatural, it’s typically because someone with faith was involved.

God Bless
 
Hold on. Are you saying that you’re superior to God because you’d act to prevent evil, and God apparently wouldn’t?
 
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