Scapegoat of recent scandal?

[ConstantLearner]

But this is not a combat field. All the victims are injured. I think the Church needs to pay for their counseling, no matter how long it takes.

 

[bullish1]

The heck it aint! Spiritual warfare if I have ever seen it!

 

[ConstantLearner]

The heck it aint! Spiritual warfare if I have ever seen it!

Granted abusers of any stripe are ill, but the Church is not at war with it’s own priests, or do you think it is?

 

[bullish1]

Granted abusers of any stripe are ill, but the Church is not at war with it’s own priests, or do you think it is?

No, only in a war with the liar and deceiver Satan. First, Stop the abuse (bleeding) and the subculture it thrives in. Then the church should do it’s best to help those, including priests, who have fallen prey to the lie in all forms.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The Church is never at war with human beings. Scripture tells our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness.

These abuse cases, all of them, are evil and so we pray and ask God to guide us in our working or battling to solve the problem.

 

[bullish1]

Every time Pennsylvania is mentioned as though it is some new scandal, I will interject that it uncovered specifics cases already covered by the John Jay report from 1950-2002. The Pennsylvania priest scandal is only an outgrowth of political ambition.

I will not sit idle while the narrative of an on-going scandal is drawn by this historical data.

You keep posting on multiple threads that this is an old and over-blown story driven by political reasons. The latter may be true but the abuse is neither old or over-blown.

https://www.catholicnews.com/annual-audit-of-churchs-abuse-allegations-shows-cautious-improvement/

“Introductory remarks in the 2017 report urge church leaders not to assume that “sexual abuse of minors by the clergy is a thing of the past and a distant memory. Any allegation involving a current minor should remind the bishops that they must rededicate themselves each day to maintaining a level of vigilance,” wrote Francesco Cesareo, chairman of the National Review Board, which oversees the audits.”

 

[Gab123]

Realize that another report claims that the pope said there is no hell. Did he contradict the report? No… Yet plenty of actual statements he actually made about the existence of hell prior to that supposed claim.

Again, homosexuality is a psychological condition, while homosexual activity is a perversion of the gift of sexuality, thus homosexual activity is a serous sin. Bible teaches it, Church has always taught it, so don’t be fooled by all the noise out there…

 

[pnewton]

You keep posting on multiple threads that this is an old and over-blown story driven by political reasons. The latter may be true but the abuse is neither old or over-blown.

And I will keep on saying it. From your article:

The newly released report – based on audits conducted between July 1, 2015, and June 30, 2016 – shows that 1,232 survivors of child sexual abuse by clergy came forward with 1,318 clerical abuse allegations in 132 Catholic dioceses and eparchies. The allegations represent reports of abuse that occurred from the 1940s to the present.

Of course crimes will still be committed. The difference now is that they are being reported as they come to light to the police. The difference is now that the acts are caught at a lower level of abuse and they are drastically fewer in number. The difference now is that despite the charter for protection of children, the Church is still trying to find ways to improve and monitor progress.

On the the other hand, this Pennsylvania report brought the past into the present to make the present look like the past. And yes, Josh Shapiro is a politician. The grand jury system, designed to indict people without prejudice for the purpose of trial is not capable of an unjust or balanced study like they tried. They should have no more weight than a class of middle-schoolers presenting a definitive study on global warming.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Again, homosexuality is a psychological condition, while homosexual activity is a perversion of the gift of sexuality, thus homosexual activity is a serous sin. Bible teaches it, Church has always taught it, so don’t be fooled by all the noise out there…

I studied theology in college for six years with no break. I’m not an adherent to the Catholic faith, but I believe those who are should follow Christ’s Vicar on earth and successor of St. Peter. I am religious, but I also form opinions based on qualified research, etc.

I know homosexuality is biological.

We disagree. That’s okay. Let’s just leave it at that.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Of course crimes will still be committed. The difference now is that they are being reported as they come to light to the police. The difference is now that the acts are caught at a lower level of abuse and they are drastically fewer in number. The difference now is that despite the charter for protection of children, the Church is still trying to find ways to improve and monitor progress.

I hope you’re right, but how do you know that? How do you know child abuse crimes are not going on now and being covered up?

I don’t think any of us can know.

 

[pnewton]

I hope you’re right, but how do you know that? How do you know child abuse crimes are not going on now and being covered up?

I don’t think any of us can know.

I do not think the word “know” is useful. Nothing can be done about that which is not known. Surely the Church has no responsibility for something that is unknown. So what we can know is how many reports are made and how many priests are convicted. We can also know how many bishops, or other Church leaders, are indicted/convicted of failure to report child abuse.

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[ConstantLearner]

I do not think the word “know” is useful. Nothing can be done about that which is not known. Surely the Church has no responsibility for something that is unknown. So what we can know is how many reports are made and how many priests are convicted. We can also know how many bishops, or other Church leaders, are indicted/convicted of failure to report child abuse.

I think it does have some responsibility for what’s unknown. It must take steps to make sure safeguards are in place to prevent what has happened in the past. Of course, cases will still slip by the best of safeguards, but one thing we can learn from PA is that what is in place now is better, but still not enough. Parish councils, or something similar, must be formed to make sure all are safe from any priest who is predatory. If anything even seems amiss, they must investigate.

 

[pnewton]

. It must take steps to make sure safeguards are in place to prevent what has happened in the past

“Prevent” is another less than useful word. "Safeguard is better. And those steps have been taken. It is enough in that it is all that is possible. I have never heard anyone suggest anything more that can be done. Perfect safety is not a possibility in the world, in any form or fashion. What I have learned from Pennsylvania is that for many there are not steps that are enough, short of shutting the doors on all Catholic Churches.

 

[Theo2]

homosexual activity is always a mortal sin, as is any sexual activity outside of the bond of matrimony between a man and a woman…

This is not right. It is always grievous matter but only God and the person maybe the priest can say whether it was a mortal sin.

 

[Gab123]

If you start off with the premise that men who are sexually attracted to male bodies are born with that condition, your argument would mean that men who are sexually attracted to children, or men who are sexually attracted to animals, or men who are sexually attracted to both sexes, or men who are only sexually attracted to young, fit and tanned bodies, were born with that attraction.

Furthermore, you would have to ignore all the studies that link homosexuality to a psychological development, some related to a complicated father-son relationship, and the gateway drug of pornography that develops into all sorts and varieties of sexual fetishes.it’s like a drug.

What starts off as a thought becomes a fantasy, that turns into an action; the action turns into habit, habit onto addiction, addiction into a way of life. Heroin addicts think they can’t live without heroin. to go from little baby to adult heroin addict was a journey that had many outside influences and many personal choices. It doesn’t help when the world and Hollywood celebrate, honor and urge people to embrace a lifestyle based on one’s own personal fetishes.

Here is Joseph Scambria, an ex “gay porn star” who explains his journey into homosexuality:

 

[Thorolfr]

This article in Crisis Magazine is so full of stereotypes:

The confusion begins when you meet an effeminate classmate. The effeminate tendencies in this classmate may be easily ignored at first. You think, “young men are not always fully formed.” They just haven’t developed strong masculine traits yet. Thus, you accept it as a normal happening in humanity and presume that these traits will be charitably formed by the seminary community into strong masculine traits that befit a father.

But this assessment changes once you notice one, two, or maybe most of the priest on the faculty or formation staff also have effeminate traits. These traits manifest as constant and oftentimes public sarcasm which then devolves into private gossip, or maybe personal secrets.

On the other hand, in a healthy context, heterosexual young adult males focus on developing their masculinity. They look to strong male role models to imitate and to gain wisdom. Young men require healthy physical contact in sports and need to work with their hands. They like to be challenged—challenged to become holy and to develop holy friendships. They strive to be moral in their private affairs and public conduct.

First, not all gay men are effeminate while some straight men can be on the effeminate side.

Second, someone is not less of a “real man” if he doesn’t like sports. My father, for example, doesn’t like sports much. Nevertheless, he’s not at all effeminate in any way and did a lot of other things when I was growing up that are stereotypically masculine. He liked to collect and shoot guns and I can still remember him splitting logs with an ax when we lived in a house that had a wood burning stove.

Thirdly, gossip is not a “feminine” thing. The notion that it’s mostly women and gay men who sit around gossiping is ridiculous.

And fourthly, the notion that heterosexual men “strive to be moral in their private affairs and public conduct,” whereas, I suppose, gay men don’t, is laughable. Look at our president. Would anyone consider him to be someone who is striving to be moral in his private affairs and public conduct?

 

[Theo2]

On the the other hand, this Pennsylvania report brought the past into the present to make the present look like the past. And yes, Josh Shapiro is a politician. The grand jury system, designed to indict people without prejudice for the purpose of trial is not capable of an unjust or balanced study like they tried. They should have no more weight than a class of middle-schoolers presenting a definitive study on global warming.

I disagree. The past is the past. What we learned is that the church has tried for many years to keep things secret. Now, we have to face our history and Pennsylvania is but a sample of what has happened all over the US and all over the world.

The weight of the report is the data which is largely just the Bishops secret files.

There is no doubt we are doing a better job now because cases are now reported immediately to law enforcement and people have been educated to not be naïve. Also, we have painfully learned that the fines can be enormous.

Finally, we will do a even better job in the future because of the report.

 

[Thorolfr]

Here is Joseph Scambria, an ex “gay porn star” who explains his journey into homosexuality:

Don’t you have any other examples besides Joseph Sciambra? He’s the only person you post videos about even though his experience is hardly representative of all or even most gay men.

If you start off with the premise that men who are sexually attracted to male bodies are born with that condition, your argument would mean that men who are sexually attracted to children, or men who are sexually attracted to animals, or men who are sexually attracted to both sexes, or men who are only sexually attracted to young, fit and tanned bodies, were born with that attraction.

Most of the things that you’ve listed above are paraphilias which are defined in the DSM V as follows:

Paraphilias are defined as intense and persistent sexual interests outside of foreplay and genital stimulation with phenotypically normal, consenting adults.

So, homosexuality is not in the same category as bestiality, pedophilia, etc,

 

[Gab123]

Don’t you have any other examples besides Joseph Sciambra?

There are plenty of ex “gays” testimonies. Do a search.

 

[ConstantLearner]

There is no doubt we are doing a better job now because cases are now reported immediately to law enforcement and people have been educated to not be naïve. Also, we have painfully learned that the fines can be enormous.

How do you know the Church is doing a better job now? No one knows what has yet to come to light. I don’t think anyone can know unless they have access to all bishops’s files.