Should Alabama's Jefferson Davis holiday be abolished?

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meltzerboy2 said:
For sure, important questions. For some famous people, I think, there is hardly any redeeming quality. Would you agree that Germans would be foolish to celebrate Hitler’s birthday as a national holiday?
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Perhaps, thinking of Germany, it might be easier to see why Prussia might be more enamored with a statue of Bismark, or a holiday recognizing him than Bavaria. Shouls Bavaria be able to demand that such recognition be halted?
 
I don’t care about its cultural significance. It should be abolished. Every confederate flag on a government building should be taken down. And every statue of Robert E. Lee on government property should be taken down.

Lee had a whipping post at Arlington. And it was used.

He’s not a gentleman. It’s time to stop honoring people involved in the protection of slavery.
 
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Did you honestly just use the word “negro” in 2020? This place is crazy.
 
The words change about every generations and are generally contested.
Negro means black in Spanish.
Unfortunately, the word black is also problematical as, globalization has led to an influx of immigrants from many countires including African states and those of African heritage who have immigrated from non-African states. Thus, the experiences of differing communities may represent the experiences of immigrants and/ or those who have lived in the U.S. for many generations, including some who are descendants of slaves.
Perhaps descendants of African American slaves might be the descriptor you seek?
 
You know perfectly well “negro” hasn’t been acceptable for a very long time. Black or African American are both acceptable. Don’t do that. Unbelievable
 
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i think that you might be referring to someone else.
However, the point that I am making is that I think that black might be too general of a term to refer to the complexity existing in the United States. African-Americans is also a fairly broad term but also may be confusing: is one referring to those whose families have been in this country since the days of slavery, to those of a particular skin color, to those having African ancestry regardless of color, to those who have migrated from Africa and are seeking citizenship?
In my area, we have significant immigrant communities.
 
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A patriot typically doesn’t act to support the violation of the basic human rights and dignity of a large chunk of the population, for the sake of personal financial gain!
 
The irony, is as you say. By celebrating the lives of people like Jefferson Davis, one is implying there’s literally no one else in the South who is equally or more worthy of celebration.
 
One needn’t look far to find all sorts of movements, revolts and ideologies associated with patriotism. In the name of love of country, all sorts of behaviors occur.


pa·tri·ot | \ ˈpā-trē-ət

, -ˌät, chiefly British ˈpa-trē-ət
: one who loves and supports his or her country

example: … praised him as a … motivated patriot who was fearless in the quest to preserve American security.— W. R. Hearst, Jr.
 
MJCarzon said:
While I of course do not support slavery, and believe negros are equal people
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Negroes? Out of curiosity, are you American/a native English-speaker? I assume not. That word is now used pretty well exclusively in a historical context. These days one says “black people” or, in a specifically American context, “African Americans”.
jeannetherese said:
Negro means black in Spanish.
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I think we all know the etymology of the word. The point is that it is now regarded as a racist term. Yes, its literal meaning is “black”, but there is more to words than their literal meanings. In the context, “black people” would have been a perfectly good alternative.
IanM said:
His myriad of disciples have!
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You could say the same about Jesus.
 
I feel as if I’m in a weird time warp. I cannot believe there are actually posts here defending the idea of honoring Jefferson Davis with a holiday. This week, that seems simultaneously ironic and horrifying.
 
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Peaceable said:
A patriot typically doesn’t act to support the violation of the basic human rights and dignity of a large chunk of the population, for the sake of personal financial gain!
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It seems clear to me that “personal financial gain” was not the only reason, or even the main reason, for the institution of slavery. The basic justification for slavery was that black people are inferior to white people and that it is therefore natural that black people should be made subordinate to white people through slavery.

Some people will argue that the real reason for slavery was economic and that racism was merely a means of justifying slavery. I would argue that in fact the fundamental reason for the existence of slavery was racism itself and that the opportunity for economic productivity could be regarded as a welcome by-product. One point in favor of this argument is the fact that most economic historians now agree that slavery is in fact a relatively inefficient and unprofitable form of labor. Another is the fact that for some 100 years after the end of slavery, white people continued to keep black people in a subordinate position in the South. Segregation, lynching, denial of voting rights, etc. served no direct economic purpose (probably quite the opposite), but were nonetheless important features of the southern way of life, replacing slavery with another form of subordination.
 
Excellent point, djlm , and I do not disagree with any of this! Thanks for making a better point than I did!
 
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JulianN said:
I feel as if I’m in a weird time warp. I cannot believe there are actually posts here defending the idea of honoring Jefferson Davis with a holiday. This week, that seems simultaneously ironic and horrifying
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There are a few people here who will happily tell you that fhe Confederacy was the morally superior side and that they wish they’d won.
 
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It’s an interesting argument and I would be intersted in exploring it further. Is your research or reading focused upon slavery in the United States or is it a comparative study across time and culture?
The latter would be of particular interest to me.
Thanks,
jt
 
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I have to admit I am a bit of an amateur enthusiast where African American history is concerned. These are just the conclusions I have reached based on what I have read about the subject. I think I’d particularly recommend anything by Kenneth M. Stampp, C. Vann Woodward, and Eugene Genovese - all fairly old now, but absolute classics.

I would add, when I talk to British people about the trans-Atlantic slave trade, they often emphasize the idea that racism was invented around the time that the slave trade took off in a big way as a way of justifying treating black people as chattels (and as labor in British colonies thousands of miles away). However, from the American point of view, perhaps because slavery actually took place right here on American soil, I think there is a lot of evidence that white people in the South genuinely believed that black people were inferior and that it was in the interests of both races for black people to be kept as slaves. During the Jim Crow era, it was also repeatedly argued that segregation was actually in the best interests of black people as well as white people and that the separation of the races was natural.
 
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RolandThompsonGunner said:
There are a few people here who will happily tell you that fhe Confederacy was the morally superior side and that they wish they’d won.
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That can cut across ideological lines however. Karl Marx himself said the Civil War was purely about political and economic power. Hannah Arendt wrote that while repugnant the American south had every right to secede considering our country was founded on the right to secede.

I am not saying the South was the morally superior side or should have won. But the Civil War is a complicated issue. I don’t think either side rode the moral high ground. Especially once you take into consideration the genocide they carried out against the Indians after the war.
 
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Not really. If you’re confused about what term to use to refer to African-Americans, there is good news. As a Catholic you have access to the words of the most marvelous and inspiring of teachers, Sister Thea Bowman, originally from Mississippi. She referred to herself and those who look like her as either black or African-American. Not “Negro”. As has been typical in the United States for over 50 years at this point. There are YouTube videos that you can watch of this Servant of God. I’d be delighted to see a statue of Jefferson Davis in Mississippi be replaced by one of hers! In the meantime I’ll contribute to her cause.
 
No confusion; rather, a recognition that these issues are complex and an interest in exploring and recognizing complexities.
Sister Thea is a fascinating woman, a convert to the faith and a member of the Franciscans.
She died in 1990 and her language, while perhaps suitable to the times, may not be the best or only terms of reference.
May she find eternal rest in Our Lord and intercede for us with the saints in heaven.
Amen.
 
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