Should Alabama's Jefferson Davis holiday be abolished?

[Cruciferi]

Karl Marx himself said the Civil War was purely about political and economic power.

That’s the dirty foundation of every conflict. However, it’s usually wrapped up in something more emotional and easier to champion to the public.

I don’t think either side rode the moral high ground.

People conveniently ignore that the North permitted the effective continuation of slavery through sharecropping. Not to mention the extensive prejudice throughout the Union ranks from the top to the bottom.

Especially once you take into consideration the genocide they carried out against the Indians after the war.

Oh, well, let’s not talk about that

 

[StudentMI]

People conveniently ignore that the North permitted the effective continuation of slavery through sharecropping. Not to mention the extensive prejudice throughout the Union ranks from the top to the bottom.

In addition they didn’t outlaw indentured servitude.

 

[Cruciferi]

Another inconvenient truth…

 

[jeannetherese]

I think that most in our society are non-Catholic and that there is a current of anti Catholicism in our land. We are already seeing ocntroversies about art depicting Catholic saints and missionaries.
We, as Catholics, may be more ready to continue to find Joan of Arc or Juniperro Serra praiseworthy than those attempting to write history from a secular perspective. As ours increasingly becomes a minority perspective, is it reasonable to expect that these works of art be maintained? If so, on what grounds?

For an example from Czechlosolvakia:

Prague Catholic statue torn down by mob rises again

 

[FiveLinden]

Why has no Catholic raised the issue of his prosecution of a manifestly unjust war, in terms of Catholic teaching, in relation to whether statutes of him should be preserved?

 

[poche]

I think that this date is a wonderful opportunity for reconciliation. It is Jefferson Davis’ birthday and it is the feast of the Ugandan martyrs.

 

[JulianN]

There are a few people here who will happily tell you that fhe Confederacy was the morally superior side and that they wish they’d won.

I’ve noticed

The “whataboutism” and deliberate refusal to acknowledge that the “states’ rights” the Confederacy was founded on boiled down to the “right” to own other human beings is beyond belief.

There’s no justification for a position supporting a holiday for the president of that. None.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

A a member of the United States living in a different state, I think Alabama’s voters are free to do whatever they want to within federal law.

 

[Nepperhan]

A a member of the United States living in a different state, I think Alabama’s voters are free to do whatever they want to within federal law.

What is your opinion on the matter? We know it is a decision for AL to make.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

As a middle-aged man with young children in 2020 living in the mid-atlantic, would I have any inclination to dedicate a holiday to Jefferson Davis? No. Nor do I see the need to tear down historical statues though either.

Do I much care what another state does? No.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

What is your opinion on the matter? We know it is a decision for AL to make.

Right. I still have an opinion on NYs abortion law even though I live in Virginia.

 

[TULIPed]

As a follower of Christ, if a black friend asked you what you thought about a state having a holiday commemorating Jefferson Davis, how would you approach the conversation? What if your black friend asked you how you felt personally about Jefferson Davis and what he stood for?

 

[RobertAdams]

Hello, I think the ethical issues in the civil war are more often made to be complicated by a poor framing of one’s analysis.

You are correct that weighing moral superiority of the collective human beings who made up either side is complicated to the point of being impossible.

However, evaluating the moral superiority of the two warring “sides” is not. The confederacy launched the war to protect and promote slavery and white supremacy. The US responded first to restore the the union as it was (with limits to the expansion of slavery, then later included various degrees of emancipation). While neither position is perfect, it’s pretty clear to anyone not wilfully choosing to misunderstand that starting a separate country out of sour grapes over your difficulty expanding slavery and the desire to more vigorously enshrine white supremacy, is worse than being an imperfect country fighting to stop said upstart country.

 

[Cruciferi]

What if your black friend asked you how you felt personally about Jefferson Davis and what he stood for?

I view him much like I do Thomas Jefferson, a complicated figure and a product of his time. Davis didn’t desire secession but like Lee felt a loyalty to his state. The rest is history and that’s that.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

I’d tell him I was not a fan and thought it was a silly idea to have a holiday.

That would mean something were I the governor of a state. Look, there are worse things than this that states do. Do you want to be in the business of dictating by fiat what they can and cannot do within the law?

I’d disallow states from having sanctuary cities, state income tax, easy abortion access, and a host of other things.

I am guessing my “friend” whom I spoke with might disagree with some of my wish list. Ergo, we let the states decide how to govern themselves.

 

[TULIPed]

I’d tell him I was not a fan and thought it was a silly idea to have a holiday.

Exactly. Of course you would! Because you are a kind, follower of Christ who takes the following seriously:

"Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!"

And yes, you’re right about the governance issue, which is directly to the OP’s question. But cheese and rice I wish we could love each other around this country a little bit!

 

[TULIPed]

I view him much like I do Thomas Jefferson, a complicated figure and a product of his time. Davis didn’t desire secession but like Lee felt a loyalty to his state. The rest is history and that’s that.

And let’s pretend for the moment that your black friend listened politely to what you thought of Jefferson Davis. Would you be curious (being a follower of Christ) what he thought about the matter?

Incidentally - would you use this same formulation with a Jewish friend in a conversation about Hitler? Sorry - never mind - that would never happen. No statues of him lying around - and certainly no holidays!

 

[Cruciferi]

Would you be curious (being a follower of Christ) what he thought about the matter?

This really has nothing to do with being a follower of Christ. So, self-righteousness aside… If we’re discussing History, that’s best accomplished by looking at the whole picture and approaching it as objectively as possible.

I have friends that are African American and we have discussed the current issues as well the historical legacy of racism in the United States. We have had no problems discussing this subject.

Incidentally - would you use this same formulation with a Jewish friend in a conversation about Hitler?

Contrary to what you might have learned, all roads do not lead to back Hitler. Nor does Jefferson Davis rise to that level. Nevertheless, I’d be more than willing to discuss Hitler, Mao Tse-tung, and Stalin with someone if they desired. However, I digress.

 

[TULIPed]

This really has nothing to do with being a follower of Christ.

Really. Odd that. I was taught that everything we do and say has to do with being a follower of Christ. Here’s where I get it from (From 1 Corinthians 10):

“31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.”

I have friends that are African American and we have discussed the current issues as well the historical legacy of racism in the United States. We have had no problems discussing this subject.

They tell you they have no problems with the idea that evil gets a pass because it’s ok as long as it’s a “product of the times”? These friends of yours have to be Believers. (They must like you a lot.) I like them and I don’t even know them.

Contrary to what you might have learned, all roads do not lead to back Hitler. Nor does Jefferson Davis rise to that level.

You made the argument my friend. You said that Jefferson Davis was a “complicated figure and a product of his time.” How was Hitler not the same? The man was a product of the ashes of post WW1 Germany. Hatred of the Jews wasn’t limited to Germany (and still isn’t). If anyone was a “product of his time”, Adolph Hitler was Exhibit A.

And you’re right. I am self righteous, God forgive me. (Just ask my wife.) I’ve got the Sequoia National Forest in my own eye. I’d make the all-world team in stone throwers. It just makes no sense to me. Why we continue to glorify men who led a nation that enslaved people for profit. But, democracy is messy and we all get a say (thank God.) So on we go.

 

[RobertAdams]

I think the Grimke sisters and John Brown were products of that time as well. There’s no evidence to suggest that JD and Lee couldnt have decided to not be white supremacist traitors, as many people living at that time were not. Not only that, but their choices were at least controversial enough in their own time that they were leading contributors to America’s bloodiest war. Not exactly an I wore bell bottoms because everyone else did kind of situation.