'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

1 Cor 15:1-9 [ The Gospel Teaching] Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you , which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved , if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried ; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep . After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me. For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

That is the gospel message

Well, if only…

i mean look at Nicene decrees/creed, what a page or two ? Then look at Trent decrees, 40 or more pages ?

As to your text, I see nothing but what Christ alone did for us, as witnessed by apostles and some 500 also

And if by that text your gospel does not err , then nor does mine, and indeed by that there still is a universal church, under no flagship save that by Christ .

 

[ArchStanton]

not ignoring you, but will be back tomorrow

 

[Johan]

You try to keep asking people what they “think” or “believe” as individuals and from Scripture alone.

Well, certainly you must believe something regardless of whether your church has told you to believe that or not. So do you really think it is wrong to ask what you think or believe? What is the purpose of a discussion forum, if not to discuss thoughts? You interact with me voluntarily and if you find it problematic to do so for different reasons, then why not just stop doing so? I will not stop criticizing Catholic theology just because you think my posts are obnoxious.

You seem to want to trip Catholics up asking if they believe in a Bible verse here or there taken out of context also.

Ah, the context card. But if you claim to believe all of the Scriptures, then you certainly believe John 3:16 as well. And since the Bible does not contradict itself, no other part of it will disagree. Hence, all who believe in Christ will be saved.

These are very common protestant tactics.

I could tell you a thing or two about Catholic tactics, if you are really intent on discussing how we discuss, rather than the subject matter at hand. I am not ashamed of being a dissenting voice.

 

[mcq72]

These are very common protestant tactics.

well perhaps.

Salvation is at least a very personal thing. We can talk doctrine and works all day, but out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. I think the most important, pivotal, personal , loving conversation deals with our eternal standing, and the reasons why we have such a hope.

Is that a tactic, to ask , " if you were to die tonight…" , and you know the rest ? It most certainly can be a forced question, mostly certainly can be done in a leading fashion. But it most certainly can be also be done with care and love and in the Spirit.

Solas and all doctrines are peripheral and can be held mentally, but discussing the above is more personal and of the heart, and better to put to the fire our justification foundation now than when it is too late.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

And if by that text your gospel does not err , then nor does mine, and indeed by that there still is a universal church, under no flagship save that by Christ .

It is not the text that errs but man’s own understanding, so yes there absolutely needs to be a flagship, lest Paul’s words get twisted as Peter says they do or we get tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

too bad you didn’t have google

lol, that is what I had. It wasn’t that long ago. I used Blue Letter Bible, Biblegateway and others. Not there. As a matter of fact, in the KJV, it is vanity to believe we are saved apart from works:

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

In the NIV, it is a foolish man who believes he is justified without works:

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless

it would be quite cynical to think Luther put his "alone " in there without some merit from scripture and his times.

Not cynical at all. He was very deceptive.

Even here i have seen a few comments from some that show that some self justification is still alive and well.

So, again, it is man that fails. It is man that sins. Self righteousness can be found in many a denominations but I haven’t read any posts here promoting self justification. That is not what the Church teaches and that is not what anyone is saying. They are just trying to explain the Biblical understanding of salvation given to the Catholic church from the leading of the Holy Spirit.

It is actual grace that gives us the ability to do what God asks:

Actual grace is therefore a transient divine assistance to enable man to obtain, retain, or grow in supernatural grace and the life of God. Catholic Culture.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Well, certainly you must believe something regardless of whether your church has told you to believe that or not.

Nope, not anymore. I used to, as you do, but it led to nowhere. When I answer a post I only do my best to explain Church teaching. I trust God has led the Church and I no longer have any desire to lean on my own understanding in regards to Christianity.

then you certainly believe John 3:16 as well. And since the Bible does not contradict itself, no other part of it will disagree. Hence, all who believe in Christ will be saved.

I do belileve in John 3:16 but again it must be taken in context of the whole Bible. You are right, Scripture does not contradict itself but completes.

I could tell you a thing or two about Catholic tactics, if you are really intent on discussing how we discuss, rather than the subject matter at hand. I am not ashamed of being a dissenting voice.

That would be your choice. I am not trying to say anything without charity. All I am saying is that protestants many times will give a Bible verse, as you just did with John 3:16 and ask Catholics in different ways if they believe it, perhaps thinking that Catholics do not believe those Bible verses but as I said before the whole Bible is inerrant, not just certain verses. We believe it all.

 

[mcq72]

It is not the text that errs but man’s own understanding, so yes there absolutely needs to be a flagship, lest Paul’s words get twisted

Well you are adding to text given to represent the gospel then. That is ok. But the text was that we are saved, that we receive that Christ died for our sins, etc., and was witnessed by apostles…as being the gospel per post.

ut wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

In the NIV, it is a foolish man who believes he is justified without works:

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless

these verses underline the foundation of faith. Faith comes first, apart from works

 

[MagdalenaRita]

we are saved, that we receive that Christ died for our sins, etc.,

yes but Scripture also instructs us to accept that Christ founded a visible Church.

these verses underline the foundation of faith.

Catholics would certainly agree with that. As I said earlier, we need faith, we have to have faith, faith is first and foundational but it doesn’t stop there in our righteousness.

Faith comes first, apart from works

Yes, but it doesn’t stay there. Scripture just does not support that it does.

 

[mcq72]

I trust God has led the Church

right , you believe something. You have exercised
your fee will. This is your personal belief, to belief only in Church understanding

I no longer have any desire to lean on my own understanding in regards to Christianity.

I would not have it any other way for you. That is , it would be wrong for you or anyone to be in any church based upon leaning upon their own understanding, and not divine revelation.

 

[Johan]

I do belileve in John 3:16 but again it must be taken in context of the whole Bible.

Right, so the next time James 2:24 pops up (it will for sure!), we Protestants could simply reply that it needs to be understood in context of the whole Bible, including Paul’s writings. Good. Because that is precisely what we aim to do.

All I am saying is that protestants many times will give a Bible verse, as you just did with John 3:16 and ask Catholics in different ways if they believe it, perhaps thinking that Catholics do not believe those Bible verses but as I said before the whole Bible is inerrant, not just certain verses. We believe it all.

You can claim to “believe it all”, but it is still the case that a verse or a passage does not need the entire Bible to be understood. One could even state that what you are saying here is part of Catholic tactics. Genesis 1:1 says that God created heaven and earth. I do not need any other verse in the Bible to understand that statement. The rest of the same chapter goes into the details of how the world was created, but from Genesis 1:1 alone I can state with absolute certainty that God has created this world. With the same certainty, I claim that all who believe in Christ will be saved, as per John 3:16. Unless you think His statement is somehow ambiguous or unclear, that verse does not need to be “completed” by any other part of the Bible in order to be understood.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Right, so the next time James 2:24 pops up (it will for sure!), we Protestants could simply reply that it needs to be understood in context of the whole Bible, including Paul’s writings. Good. Because that is precisely what we aim to do.

Yes, absolutely. That is good. It should be.

 

[mcq72]

yes but Scripture also instructs us to accept that Christ founded a visible Church.

of course, but to be saved ? One is saved first, then places you in the “called out ones” church,and yes, the preacher is already a member who first gives you the gospel…

 

[MagdalenaRita]

of course, but to be saved ?

Yes because otherwise we can be led astray into believing we are saved and bound for heaven when we are not.

When we place our faith in Christ, we place our faith in everything He said and did and that includes giving us the visitible Church, which is where the fullness of truth is found.

If one is outside the Catholic church and doesn’t know out of no fault of their own that the Catholic church is the True Church, but loves and follows Christ as best they can, it is possible for them to be saved but they will be missing out on many graces that Christ gives us through the Church.

does salvation teeter in the balance of works ?

According to Scripture it does.

I would think the more i rest and abide in Him the more my works are His.

Yes, it is by His grace that we are moved to do good works, not on our own ability but we also have free will and can say no and that does impact our salvation.

 

[mcq72]

Yes, but it (faith) doesn’t stay there

does salvation teeter in the balance of works ? Not if faith is squarely founded on His works. I would think the more i rest and abide in Him the more my works are His.

 

[mcq72]

If one is outside the Catholic church and doesn’t know out of no fault of their own that the Catholic church is the True Church, but loves and follows Christ as best they can, it is possible for them to be saved but they will be missing out on many graces that Christ gives us through the Church.

well thank you , but if one were really dogmatic about CC teaching it is much grimmer for Protestants than just missing out on graces here. and as to that , it is very difficult to quantify such graces between a Christian in this church or that church.

As to that I will once again cite a sermon by someone who was behind the iron curtain titled, " the power of nothing". You can see graces abound when you have nothing in a cell but yourself and your Lord for years. Unbreakable, unconditional fullness of the Spirit.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

You can see graces abound when you have nothing in a cell but yourself and your Lord for years. Unbreakable, unconditional fullness of the Spirit.

Yes, many martyrs would certainly attest to that.

There are definitely different ways our Lord graces us. One way is in our daily life, day to day, empowering us to pick up our crosses and follow Him. That would be the type of grace one would have found behind the iron curtain.

Another way God graces us is in the sacraments; Baptism, Confirmation, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Marriage, Last Rites, Ministerial Priesthood.

 

[mcq72]

yes but Scripture also instructs us to accept that Christ founded a visible Church.

Only a sectarian view would even think that any Christian would not accept this, and that it is part and parcel of being made a Christian.

As to the “visible”, again sectarian, yet we have an invisible head, and we have an invisible portion of ecclessia in heaven. I have yet to go to an invisible church, be it Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant.

Understand you also mean structure, not a building, but authority structure. But just as we deny your visible head as pope, you deny validity of other authority in “other” churches.

Big topic

 

[ArchStanton]

But just as we deny your visible head as pope, you deny validity of other authority in “other” churches.

Isn’t that the crux of the matter?

Did the authority given to Peter and the other apostles have an expiration date?

 

[ArchStanton]

I claim that all who believe in Christ will be saved, as per John 3:16. Unless you think His statement is somehow ambiguous or unclear

As Steve Ray would say…“believe is a pregnant word” … an action [ongoing]

 

[mcq72]

Isn’t that the crux of the matter?

Apparently it is to some that deny “other” church office holders as valid.

Did the authority given to Peter and the other apostles have an expiration date

I posted big topic, meaning we could go on and on. Was pressed for time but my next immediate thought was that churches should be “apostolic” .

The apostles and Peter certainly expired. It is debated whether we have such apostles thereafter. But certainly we have the offices listed in writ, ,of presbyters/ bishops, teachers etc.

I find it quite artificial, institutional that the non expiration date is applied only thru successive laying on of hands. Key word only, as is if otherwise unconditional. As if that is only sure visible means of transferring right doctrine, practice and attitude.

Even the world knows better. Apostolic is as apostolic does. (from Forest Gump movie, “Stupid is as stupid does.”).It is conditional. Like circumcision, succession is only good if indeed the Lord has also circumcised/anointed.