Someone can lose their salvation?

[Matariel]

Greetings PJM,

Jesus reminds you, “You did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15:16). “Let these words sink into your ears… You did not choose me, but I chose you” (Luke 9:44; John 15:16).

“The enemy of grace presses on and urges in all ways to make us believe that grace is given according to our deservings, and thus grace is no more grace; and are we unwilling to say what we can say by the testimony of Scripture? Do we fear, forsooth, to offend by our speaking him who is not able to receive the truth? and are we not afraid lest by our silence he who can receive the truth may be involved in falsehood?” (St. Augustine, The Gift of Perseverance).

With the love of Christ,
Pete

Here is a good article on the views of predestination that are permissible according to Church dogma, in comparison with Calvinistic views:
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

 

[Pete_Holter]

Here is a good article on the views of predestination that are permissible according to Church dogma, in comparison with Calvinistic views:
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

Thank you! Are you seeking to correct me on something?

 

[NonCatholic]

No, the Bible doesn’t not say we are puppets of God. It also clearly speaks of falling away from salvation and other such things.

Another great post; did you even look at the previous post and do the word study?

 

[NonCatholic]

hmm … how would you know?
Please post any posting in this thread where that is stated. Did anyone write “they control their own salvation” or “we work our way to heaven”. If so please cite … otherwise I consider this to be a bearing of false witness … a breaking of one of the 10 commandments.

You are avoiding the issue.

 

[Matariel]

Another great post; did you even look at the previous post and do the word study?

I did a couple of them. But I’ve already seen these verses. Did you check out my link? My whole point was that some Catholics are closer to what you believe but not exactly the same, altough God does not make mindless puppets to play with and manipulate. God predestines, inasmuch as He knows what course we will ultimately take, but He doesn’t actively make that decision for us. He offers salvation, and we either accept, and go with Him to His Heaven, or reject, and go down to Hell.

 

[guanophore]

You are avoiding the issue.

No, he is not. You are saying “the only other option is…” and we are saying no, there is more than one more option. The Catholic Church does not teach that we can “work” our way to heaven, or that we can accomplish our own salvation. God has to be at work in us to will and to do HIs good pleasure. He does not do this without our consent. That is why it is possible for people to reject His purpose for themselves.

 

[NonCatholic]

No, he is not. You are saying “the only other option is…” and we are saying no, there is more than one more option. The Catholic Church does not teach that we can “work” our way to heaven, or that we can accomplish our own salvation. God has to be at work in us to will and to do HIs good pleasure. He does not do this without our consent. That is why it is possible for people to reject His purpose for themselves.

Anyone that is saved can be outside the will of God, but that one will be chastened if they remain that way for any period of time.

 

[NonCatholic]

I did a couple of them. But I’ve already seen these verses. Did you check out my link? My whole point was that some Catholics are closer to what you believe but not exactly the same, altough God does not make mindless puppets to play with and manipulate. God predestines, inasmuch as He knows what course we will ultimately take, but He doesn’t actively make that decision for us. He offers salvation, and we either accept, and go with Him to His Heaven, or reject, and go down to Hell.

Rather than gloss over the passages; I would suggest you look at all of them carefully. That mindless puppet you keep referring to was an original made by another poster. Predestined means before time. Who hardened Pharaohs heart? There are many more examples. I don’t have to know what Calvin taught, as I have been reminded that he did, to see what is so blatantly obvious in Scripture. It is a hard on to swallow or understand, but when you do it will either scare you to death or make you stand there in awe.

 

[NonCatholic]

No, he is not. You are saying “the only other option is…” and we are saying no, there is more than one more option. The Catholic Church does not teach that we can “work” our way to heaven, or that we can accomplish our own salvation. God has to be at work in us to will and to do HIs good pleasure. He does not do this without our consent. That is why it is possible for people to reject His purpose for themselves.

I say you can do nothing; God does it all! What do you say?

 

[Matariel]

That mindless puppet you keep referring to was an original made by another poster.

I’m sorry, could you rephrase that, I don’t understand what you mean.

Predestined means before time. Who hardened Pharaohs heart?

Did you read the link? Catholics understand this hardening of heart in terms of Romans 1:20-32, where Paul repeatedly states God gave pagans up to their sinful desires after they refused to acknowledge him. Also in James 1:13.

You really should check out that link.

There are many more examples. I don’t have to know what Calvin taught, as I have been reminded that he did, to see what is so blatantly obvious in Scripture.

We must be dumb not to see it, is that what you’re implyling? Even as a Protestant fundamentalist, I always looked at 5-Point Calvinism as something imposed on the Scriptures and completely foreign to them.

This also demonstrates the flaw of *Sola Scriptura *to a certain extent, but we’ll save that for another thread.

It is a hard one to swallow or understand, but when you do it will either scare you to death or make you stand there in awe.

No, I would never accept double-predestination, that would make God cruel and unjust. Singular predestination I’m willing to accept, but it’s still hard. Singular predestination is what St. Thomas Aquinas believed.

 

[Matariel]

I say you can do nothing; God does it all! What do you say?

God does it all, but He waits for our consent. He is not a manipulator.

 

[guanophore]

Anyone that is saved can be outside the will of God, but that one will be chastened if they remain that way for any period of time.

So, how long can the saved person be outside the will of God? Perpetually?

This stuff boggles the Apostolic mindset. The Apostles taught that being saved was about being in right relationship with God. coming to HIm in faith, remaining with Him in faith, acting in the obedience of faith. Those who did not do these things were considered to have either never made a profession of faith, or had fallen from the faith.

The idea that a person could be “saved” and yet be outside the will of God contradicts all that the Apostles taught.

. Predestined means before time. Who hardened Pharaohs heart? There are many more examples. I don’t have to know what Calvin taught, as I have been reminded that he did, to see what is so blatantly obvious in Scripture. It is a hard on to swallow or understand, but when you do it will either scare you to death or make you stand there in awe.

Pharoah hardened his own heart. God then permitted this action. In Jewish terms, this is referred to as God hardening Pharoah’s heart. However, if Pharoah had let the people go, as God commanded, God would have blessed him.

You are reading scripture with Calvanist glasses. Catholics read it with Apostolic glasses. We each perceive in it according to our mindset. JW’ perceive other things, etc.

I say you can do nothing; God does it all! What do you say?

That you are disregarding a large amount of scripture. I just posted you a list of things that Abraham did…

People choose. People act on their faith, or fail to do so. Perhaps when you read the early church fathers, that will help you to open your mind. It did mine. It is clear that they were all Catholic.

At what point do you think the “Catholic” Church separated from the Church that Jesus founded? If it was right after the NT, then reading the early fathers will not help.

 

[guanophore]

God does it all, but He waits for our consent. He is not a manipulator.

I think this would indicate a passive role on the part of the believer. If the person does not run the race, strive, etc, then God is not going to save them while they sit back at the pool and drink beer. Non is saying that, if they are one of the elect, then yes, God will save them, even if they act outside of His will.

 

[Matariel]

I think this would indicate a passive role on the part of the believer. If the person does not run the race, strive, etc, then God is not going to save them while they sit back at the pool and drink beer. Non is saying that, if they are one of the elect, then yes, God will save them, even if they act outside of His will.

Well, I was casually speaking.

What I meant was, God does all the saving, we just consent by trusting in Him with true faith from which a life of good works springs forth.

 

[ncgolf]

You are avoiding the issue.

Repeating the same accusations when such documentation does not exist … at least in this thread … is disingenious. No one has put words in your mouth yet you seem to do this … while not always … frequently.

If you want to make the thread productive … avoid those baseless accusations. If they are made … point them out … but if they don’t exist … don’t accuse the posters.

I don’t think I am avoiding the issue … my issue is not even so much with your theology … though I don’t agree with it but when you continually accuse Catholics of a belief they have over and over again said does not exist. The pre-conceived notions you entered this discussion with are not what we Catholics believe … and as such it seems, at least to me, a certain amount of frustration whelms you because those notions are not to be found here.

I do not know what interactions you have had with Catholics in the past but if you choose not to believe as Catholics believe … then base your decision on what we really believe and teach, not from what you may have been led to believe.

This particular forum exists specifically to discuss these differences … not to discuss … discuss, bash Catholicism in general … discuss, discuss … bash.

In the end, if you choose to agree to disagree then at least you can, in the future, disagree from Catholic belief rather than Catholic fiction.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think I am avoiding the issue … my issue is not even so much with your theology … though I don’t agree with it but when you continually accuse Catholics of a belief they have over and over again said does not exist. The pre-conceived notions you entered this discussion with are not what we Catholics believe … and as such it seems, at least to me, a certain amount of frustration whelms you because those notions are not to be found here.

I do not know what interactions you have had with Catholics in the past but if you choose not to believe as Catholics believe … then base your decision on what we really believe and teach, not from what you may have been led to believe.

This particular forum exists specifically to discuss these differences … not to discuss … discuss, bash Catholicism in general … discuss, discuss … bash.

In the end, if you choose to agree to disagree then at least you can, in the future, disagree from Catholic belief rather than Catholic fiction.

Well said! :clapping:

 

[sodak]

:banghead: uch:

Good reply.

James 2:21 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?”

Justified before men; not God-this is often overlooked and misunderstood. One of the reason Luther called James an epistle of straw. Same thing with Rehab.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Again, the same argument. Justified before men; not God. James whole point is to point out anyone can “say” they have faith, and many claim that faith but have absolutely no evidence of it before men; whereas the one with true faith will be seen by men because of their works. This is why James made the monumental statement in James 2:18 But someone may {well} say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

I didn’t see in the Bible where James said “justified before men”. Perhaps you can cite the verse.

Thanks for being thoughtful; but I do not need that prayer. I tell you the truth, but none of you listen to the truth because you are steeped into religion.

Yes. The religion that Jesus founded. You claim to tell us the truth. The truth according to who? It is we who are telling YOU the truth, but you aren’t willing to listen.

 

[The_Smiter]

Repeating the same accusations when such documentation does not exist … at least in this thread … is disingenious. No one has put words in your mouth yet you seem to do this … while not always … frequently.

If you want to make the thread productive … avoid those baseless accusations. If they are made … point them out … but if they don’t exist … don’t accuse the posters.

I don’t think I am avoiding the issue … my issue is not even so much with your theology … though I don’t agree with it but when you continually accuse Catholics of a belief they have over and over again said does not exist. The pre-conceived notions you entered this discussion with are not what we Catholics believe … and as such it seems, at least to me, a certain amount of frustration whelms you because those notions are not to be found here.

I do not know what interactions you have had with Catholics in the past but if you choose not to believe as Catholics believe … then base your decision on what we really believe and teach, not from what you may have been led to believe.

This particular forum exists specifically to discuss these differences … not to discuss … discuss, bash Catholicism in general … discuss, discuss … bash.

In the end, if you choose to agree to disagree then at least you can, in the future, disagree from Catholic belief rather than Catholic fiction.

This is why I just stopped posting responses to him and now just read things for laughs.

I am hoping, however, that NonCatholic’s lack of substantive responses means that he knows he is running out of material and that his invincible ignorance is possibly being chipped away!

 

[mystagogia]

The question, “Can someone lose their salvation?” is one of anxiety. It seeks the confidence of knowing that one is saved. Only if that confidence can be surely attained can one begin to wonder about its permanence and whether that can be lost.

You can never know with surety that you are “saved.” You can never know that you are saved; and you must know this before you can begin to imagine that you are “lost”.

No man or woman has the power to say who is “saved” and who is “lost”. We cannot discern these things, but trust God.

 

[Cinette]

You come across as a bitter person.

I was thinking about you NonCatholic and wondering what it is that makes you so bitter and full of hatred. You are full of venom. Some of the posters have bent over backwards for you and one would think that you would at least be polite but no you insult the Church, tell us that we do not worship God. I can’t imagine God being very supportive of your attitude.

Materiel has been very patient with you although sometimes it must be extremely difficult.

I don’t think you can be proud of your behaviour.