Spanish Bishop Angers Homosexuals by Mentioning Church Doctrine

[Steeltemplar]

Oh really?

Yes, really. And you have yet to prove how they are conceptually similar in any way.

Just how long was it before interracial marriage wasn’t considered unnatural and outlawed.

Again, this is a false analogy. Just because marriage is the issue does not mean that all marriage issues are analogous. You have yet to prove that being black and having SSA are conceptually similar.

And just how long was it before the Southern Baptist Convention renounced its racist past, using the bible…THE BIBLE!! to promote slavery.

In case you haven’t noticed, this is not the Southern Baptist forums. Just because they might have acted in a racist fashion in the past does not make the Catholic Church guilty.

Also, that does not make your analogy with SSA any less false than it was to begin with.

Whether its SSA or being black, each have had the same reality withn the timeline of humanity. Their descrimination was the SAME!!

Again, you present no real argument. We are supposed to accept this because you say so apparently?

But in reality SSA, which is a matter of sexual attractions, and being black, which is merely about genetic makeup, are not at all analogous. Furthermore, the Catholic Church is not discriminating against people who have SSA at all. The Church condemns homosexual behaviors. The two issues are entirely different.

 

[Steeltemplar]

As i have said once before…BEYOND THE 2000 YEARS OF CHUCH TEACHING, IS OVER 4000 YEARS OF BIBLICAL TRUTHS AND HISTORY. I’m comfortable with the latter!

Oh my! It appears you did not want to show us how you know Greek and have familiarized yourself with early manuscripts. Is there a reason for that? Could it be that it is because you don’t know Greek and have never read the early manuscripts?

You know, TYPING IN ALL CAPS DOES NOT MAKE YOUR POINTS ANY BETTER.

These “Biblical truths and history” is according to who? You? Two people may read the same Bible and have two opposing opinions. That is why I take the Church’s interpretation of scripture over your personal and very human opinion.

 

[truagape]

Unless you’re a moderator or the webmaster, you have no say in who or who will not remain silent on these forums, truagape. I suggest you employ a little more courtesy in your interaction with other members.

I know this fact very well! I neither have the physical ability or the permission to enforce such an action. This is obviously the case seeing’s how I’m not a moderator. My statements have only the power to employ a thought. And that thought being to encourage responses that do more than quote a transation of scripture to make a point. I want to encourage the same thing Jesus did which was to study God’s word and to test every inspired expression.

 

[Wolseley]

I know this fact very well! I neither have the physical ability or the permission to enforce such an action. This is obviously the case seeing’s how I’m not a moderator. My statements have only the power to employ a thought. And that thought being to encourage responses that do more than quote a transation of scripture to make a point. I want to encourage the same thing Jesus did which was to study God’s word and to test every inspired expression.

Better, much better. Now, try to keep it on that same level with every post, and we’ll all have a much more pleasant message board experience. Don’t you agree?

 

[Steeltemplar]

My statements have only the power to employ a thought. And that thought being to encourage responses that do more than quote a transation of scripture to make a point.

So far you have yet to quote anything, scripture or otherwise, to support your ideas. All you have done is made unsupported statements.

I want to encourage the same thing Jesus did which was to study God’s word and to test every inspired expression.

Christ is God. He knows the scripture and its intent with perfection because it is His. The Church is also His. That is why the Church has the authority needed to interpret scripture.

 

[revelations]

God’s word is very clear about sodomy, and men lying together as they would with a woman.

I don’t see where the scripture isn’t clear about that?

Sin is sin is sin is sin is sin. It’s easy to understand…the lamp post isn’t meant to shine light in the sewer pipe…it’s pretty clear in the bible, and it is not the intended purpose for such organs.

So, what’s the problem?

 

[truagape]

Oh my! It appears you did not want to show us how you know Greek and have familiarized yourself with early manuscripts. Is there a reason for that? Could it be that it is because you don’t know Greek and have never read the early manuscripts?

You know, TYPING IN ALL CAPS DOES NOT MAKE YOUR POINTS ANY BETTER.

These “Biblical truths and history” is according to who? You? Two people may read the same Bible and have two opposing opinions. That is why I take the Church’s interpretation of scripture over your personal and very human opinion.

Alright. I’ll begin with the question I last asked in another thread that has yet to be responded to. What is the original Greek and Hebrew word for “sodomite”?

 

[Wolseley]

I am not a scholar of ancient languages; my field is modern history. However, Strong’s Concordance lists the Hebrew for “sodomite” as qadesh, meaning, basically, a male prostitute dedicated to a cult or shrine of a pagan god. By extension, this also takes on the meanings of “idolater” or “unclean”. There does not appear to be a Greek reference for “sodomite”; the Greek term Sodoma merely references back to the Hebrew entry.

All of which means nothing. I am not Jewish, I am a Catholic Christian. The constant teaching of the Catholic Church since the beginning is that active homosexual behavior is a sin—period. As a Catholic Christian, I believe that Christ bestowed the charism of infallibility upon the Sacred Magesterium of the Church, that same Magesterium which has consistently defined active homosexual behavior as a sin from the beginning.

(shrug) We can play hermeneutic word games all day, but there’s really no contest here. “Roma locuta est, causa finita est.”

 

[truagape]

I am not a scholar of ancient languages; my field is modern history. However, Strong’s Concordance lists the Hebrew for “sodomite” as qadesh, meaning, basically, a male prostitute dedicated to a cult or shrine of a pagan god. By extension, this also takes on the meanings of “idolater” or “unclean”. There does not appear to be a Greek reference for “sodomite”; the Greek term Sodoma merely references back to the Hebrew entry.

All of which means nothing. I am not Jewish, I am a Catholic Christian. The constant teaching of the Catholic Church since the beginning is that active homosexual behavior is a sin—period. As a Catholic Christian, I believe that Christ bestowed the charism of infallibility upon the Sacred Magesterium of the Church, that same Magesterium which has consistently defined active homosexual behavior as a sin from the beginning.

(shrug) We can play hermeneutic word games all day, but there’s really no contest here. “Roma locuta est, causa finita est.”

So there’s no original Greek or Hebrew word for sodomite? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Wolseley]

So there’s no original Greek or Hebrew word for sodomite? Is that what you are saying?

No; I said there appears to be no original Greek word for “sodomite”, or at least in the New Testament Greek referenced by Strong. The Hebrew is qadesh as outlined above.

 

[truagape]

No; I said there appears to be no original Greek word for “sodomite”. The Hebrew is qadesh as outlined above.

Ok then, let’s just talk about the Greek for now. That same word, “sodomite” is erroneously supplied by some translators at 1. Cor. 6:9. What is the original Greek word being translated there?

 

[Wolseley]

Ok then, let’s just talk about the Greek for now. That same word, “sodomite” is erroneously supplied by some translators at 1. Cor. 6:9. What is the original Greek word being translated there?

What does it matter? As I said, we can play translational games all day, but that still does not alter the fact that the Church has declared active homosexual behavior a sin. For Catholics, myself included, this declaration is binding.

 

[truagape]

What does it matter?

Are you kidding?!! Jesus did more than promote his followers to have a knowledge of the truth. No. He told them to have an *Accurate * knowledge of the truth. That’s what matters. And if slavery and the misuse of scipture isn’t a prime example of what happens when you don’t, then what is? Studying God’s word is not only a benefit for humanity. But for a Christian, its a must!

 

[Wolseley]

Are you kidding?!! Jesus did more than promote his followers to have a knowledge of the truth. No. He told them to have an *Accurate * knowledge of the truth. That’s what matters. And if slavery and the misuse of scipture isn’t a prime example of what happens when you don’t, then what is? Studying God’s word is not only a benefit for humanity. But for a Christian, its a must!

I trust the Magesterium to have not only an accurate knowledge of the truth, truagape, but the accurate knowlege of the the truth.

Personal study is all very well, but what it boils down to for Catholics is that Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, as interpreted by the Sacred Magesterium, is the final authority in all matters. And as I have stated (three times now), that authority tells me that that active homosexual behavior is a sin, regardless of what the Greek translation or its etymological history (yes, I have read your posts in the other threads) might be.

That’s really about as far as we can go with this, I’m afraid. I’m not sure what you’re trying to justify (this topic of Greek and Hebrew translations of “sodomite” is literally the only
thing you’ve posted about, in 30+ posts), but this is as far as I can go on this one.

Blessings and peace to you.

 

[truagape]

as interpreted by the Sacred Magesterium, is the final authority in all .

I have yet to discuss interpretation. Translation is the focus here. So you obviously don’t think that having a full appreciation of the original Greek in regards to “sodomite” and 1 Cor.6:9 is of any importance? How convenient!

 

[wanner47]

I have yet to discuss interpretation. Translation is the focus here. So you obviously don’t think that having a full appreciation of the original Greek in regards to “sodomite” and 1 Cor.6:9 is of any importance? How convenient!

May I ask what exactly makes your translation of Scripture superior to that of anyone else’s, including the Catholic Church’s?

 

[truagape]

May I ask what exactly makes your translation of Scripture superior to that of anyone else’s, including the Catholic Church’s?

Perhaps you can answer your own question by responding to post # 51.

 

[wanner47]

Perhaps you can answer your own question by responding to post # 51.

That’s not answering my question in the slightest.

Again, what exactly makes your translation of Scripture superior to that of anyone else’s, including the Catholic Church’s?

 

[chrisb]

The excerpt says it “based” on scripture. This opens up all the discussions about translations, meanings of translations, and the sociology of 2000 years ago and the sociology of today. It gets very complicated very quickly.

Grace and Peace,

Perhaps you don’t know but we have 2000 years of Holy Tradition guiding the Church in our intrepretation of the Sacred Scriptures.

How long have you been Roman Catholic?

Or as referred to in the Gospel “Love your neighbor as yourself” leads to a pretty simple interpretation of loving others with the strong faith and spirituality we all have. I strive to look at each person as a mirror into my own self, a difficult spiritual exercise at times but it gives me compassion towards others by not focusing on differences. That is really part of what it means to be a faithful Christian, not a “teaching” of division towards others based on this or that.

Yes our call to charity is a very wonderful calling but such should never be an excuse for license. Remember what our Blessed Paul said to the Parish in Galatia:

For you, brethren, have been called unto liberty. Only make not liberty an occasion to the flesh: but by charity of the spirit serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if you bite and devour one another: take heed you be not consumed one of another. I say then: Walk in the spirit: and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh: For these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would. But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:13-21

Our charity is not a call to the tolerance of vice but the freedom in Christ to pursue virtue. Are we not instructed to avoid every occasion of sin… including participating in another’s sin By Counsel; By Praise and By defense of the sin commited?

Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers: Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Should we not, in the fear of God, be separate from that which the saints admonish us to avoid?

Take heed lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. - 2 Peter 3:17

Be careful.

 

[agmoose02]

Oh really? Just how long was it before interracial marriage wasn’t considered unnatural and outlawed. And just how long was it before the Southern Baptist Convention renounced its racist past, using the bible…THE BIBLE!! to promote slavery. Whether its SSA or being black, each have had the same reality withn the timeline of humanity. Their descrimination was the SAME!!

While it is true that certain Protestant sects and certain individual Catholics may have been guilty of racist beliefs or actions, the Church has never had any policy in this matter beyond the dignity of human life and the spread of the word of God. In fact it was the Church and it’s missionary representatives that condemned the widespread slavery and disregard of human life in the early colonial period, whether it be Africa, the Americas or Asia. In fact St Peter Claver among many others spent themselves in service of African slaves and among the various indigenous populations.

As for intermarriage, the Church has always blessed unions between a man and a woman of any races as long as they are Christian. It was the Church that worked so hard to stop the widespread polygamy and disregard of the dignity of indigenous women throughout the early colonial period. Jesuit fathers were exiled from early Paraguay for instance for condemning the situation there where the Spanish settlers often had 5 or more native wives.

The Church has always taught dignity and respect for all the children of God, even those with SSA. Loving the sinner though is not the same thing as loving the sin they commit. So further, if you wish to accuse the Church of racism, please back this claim up as well.