The Case for Impeachment Is Overwhelming | The American Conservative

[7_Sorrows]

In this post I was speaking of the IG hearings with Horowitz - not the impeachment so I was not on the topic of the thread. My apologies @dvdjs

 

[Kindnessmatters]

Whatever negatives one has to say about Trump, it is a sin to bear false.witness and many Democrat souls are in peril tonight.

I watched quite a bit of.today’s monkey circus and there is no excuse for the Democrat lies. This will all backfire with a Republican sweep in 2020.

 

[dvdjs]

many Democrat souls are in peril tonight.

Democrat lies

I agree that it is a sin to bear false witness.
But you offer no specifics and no support for your accusations.
Perhaps, upon specification, it might be found that there is kinder interpretation of what you call a lie,

 

[F_Marturana]

Trump is meeting with the Russians in the Oval.

And he hasn’t had a White House meeting with Zelensky yet. What message does that send?

I’m remembering when he thought Ambassador McFaul should be given up for interrogation by Putin.

 

[OneSheep]

How did President Trump violate the Constitution?

The word “constitution” has the root “constitute” which means to “establish”. Our forefathers warned us about foreign “quagmires”, and while they did not specifically designate calling on foreign powers to investigate political rivals as a crime or against the law, one can see that this act leads to some real problems. According to constitutional scholars, they used the words “such as” bribery, etc. because there may be other crimes not listed that comprise impeachable offenses.

For example, Mr. Trump has called on Russia, China, and Ukraine to investigate his political rivals. What if Mr. Putin takes him up on it, and comes up with a bogus claim that is difficult to confirm or deny? Then, Putin could possibly call upon our president to do the same kind of investigation of his own rivals, or he may ask for favors regarding military positions or so on. This is a big problem, and adds up to foreign relations nightmares, nightmares that begin with someone using his power as president for his own political gain.

And while the laws were a little more lenient about his calls for Russia to investigate Hillary Clinton (who I am still glad is not in office) because he was still only a candidate, now he has real political power, and he is using his position to call upon foreign nations to investigate political rivals. This is an abuse of power, and it can be looked upon as bribery in certain circumstances.

Imagine what it would be like to have a small shop somewhere and a mafioso comes by and asks you to “do him a favor”. You might say that the Ukrainian president should trust Trump, that he is no threat. However, Trump has repeatedly shown high regard for Putin, who was/is the leader of a nation that threatens the very existence of Ukraine. Trump does this against the policies guiding our relationship, as witnessed by every ambassador and foreign relations worker in our government who testified.

And Trump has the arrogance to do this even though there was a long investigation about conspiracy with Russia, in part triggered by his solicitation, as a candidate, of Russia to investigate his political rivals .

So the problem is that Trump is not only abusing his power, he is denying that there is anything wrong with such solicitations because he continues to solicit other nations to investigate his rivals. He is not learning that what he is doing is wrong. Indeed, he is deciding for himself what is right in a very short-sighted way, not thinking about the possible ramifications of his actions and precedent for future administrations.

Do you actually believe that our relations with other nations should have an element by which a sitting president can ask for favors from foreign leaders that contribute to his own political gain? Please, do not think of just this one president. Think of our future.

 

[Guinness]

Our forefathers warned us about foreign “quagmires”, and while they did not specifically designate calling on foreign powers to investigate political rivals as a crime or against the law, one can see that this act leads to some real problems.

Who is supposed to investigate a President’s political rivals that may be involved in foreign corruption?

 

[OneSheep]

There are departments within the administration and in other governments that are in charge of doing these. We have the CIA and other such means.

 

[Guinness]

There are departments within the administration and in other governments that are in charge of doing these. We have the CIA and other such means.

All of whom answer directly to the President. What’s the difference between the President telling the CIA director to call his foreign counterpart about investigating corruption involving a political opponent and the President calling his counterpart directly to request an investigation?

 

[OneSheep]

All of whom answer directly to the President. What’s the difference between the President telling the CIA director to call his foreign counterpart about investigating corruption involving a political opponent and the President calling his counterpart directly to request an investigation?

There is a difference between doing investigations that involve national interest vs doing investigations that involve personal interest. While Hunter Biden’s position was suspect, testimony revealed that there was nothing that rose to the need of investigating this specific person vs. other people for national interest.

What Trump wanted was a public announcement of the investigation. While a public announcement might be appropriate after something has been revealed from investigation, a public announcement beforehand only serves personal political interest.

Back to the crux of my post:

Do you actually believe that our relations with other nations should have an element by which a sitting president can ask for “favors” from foreign leaders that contribute to his own political gain? Please, do not think of just this one president. Think of our future.

 

[PaulinVA]

All of whom answer directly to the President. What’s the difference between the President telling the CIA director to call his foreign counterpart about investigating corruption involving a political opponent and the President calling his counterpart directly to request an investigation?

We have FBI offices in every embassy to conduct investigations in conjunction/cooperation with host nations.

If Trump had asked Ze to ask his law enforcement people to cooperate with the FBI SAIC, that would be something completely different. But, he didn’t want that. He wanted the Ukrainians to smear Biden before the election with an investigation and allegations of wrongdoing. Completely different.

 

[Guinness]

There is a difference between doing investigations that involve national interest vs doing investigations that involve personal interest.

A sitting Vice President and his son’s involvement in a corrupt Ukrainian venture doesn’t involve a national interest?

What Trump wanted was a public announcement of the investigation. While a public announcement might be appropriate after something has been revealed from investigation, a public announcement beforehand only serves personal political interest.

I think you might have a very narrow vision when it comes to Trump. A public announcement by the President of the Ukraine that corruption will be investigated seems like a good precursor to telling the world the business as usual is over and that he intends to clean up corruption.

We have FBI offices in every embassy to conduct investigations in conjunction/cooperation with host nations.

All of whom report to the President.

He wanted the Ukrainians to smear Biden before the election with an investigation and allegations of wrongdoing.

It’s amazing how many people can read Trump’s mind because his request made no mention of “smearing” anyone.

 

[PaulinVA]

It’s amazing how many people can read Trump’s mind because his request made no mention of “smearing” anyone.

I find it just as amazing that people can read about a mob-style, “Hey, we got a favor for youse” and think it’s about fighting corruption instead of being corruption.

 

[Guinness]

I find it just as amazing that people can read about a mob-style, “Hey, we got a favor for youse” and think it’s about fighting corruption instead of being corruption.

That’s not what was in the transcript…that’s just you make uncharitable assumptions.

 

[OneSheep]

It’s amazing how many people can read Trump’s mind because his request made no mention of “smearing” anyone.

Okay, if this specific case was truly an national interest problem worthy of world and public attention, why was it not started as soon as Trump came into office?

Again, this is all separate from my general question. The president has publicly called for several foreign governments to investigate his political rivals. He had not called for investigations of people who have actually been convicted of crimes involving meddling by foreign governments (who happened to be people in his campaign! ).

Is our constitution to allow that our relations with other nations should have an element by which a sitting president can ask for “favors” from foreign leaders that contribute to his own political gain? Please, do not think of just this one president. Think of our future

 

[Guinness]

Okay, if this specific case was truly an national interest problem worthy of world and public attention, why was it not started as soon as Trump came into office?

So, you’d be okay with it if it was the first thing Trump did when after taking the oath of office?

The president has publicly called for several foreign governments to investigate his political rivals.

Several? How many is that?

Is our constitution to allow that our relations with other nations should have an element by which a sitting president can ask for “favors” from foreign leaders that contribute to his own political gain? Please, do not think of just this one president. Think of our future

I am thinking of the future. You want to impose restrictions on Trump that no other President before have had to live under.

 

[PaulinVA]

That’s not what was in the transcript…that’s just you make uncharitable assumptions.

Nope. Millions of Americans see it that way. If it had played out the way I said, there would be no problem.

WE investigate Americans for corruption. Asking for an announcement of an investigation against the Bidens only serves a political purpose, not a law enforcement purpose.

 

[OneSheep]

So, you’d be okay with it if it was the first thing Trump did when after taking the oath of office?

Yes, or soon after. But starting with the CIA or other agency, not in public initially.

How many is that?

Three that I know of.

I am thinking of the future. You want to impose restrictions on Trump that no other President before have had to live under.

The restrictions were already the subject of the Mueller report, but Trump persisted in calling for investigations of his political rivals from foreign nations.

Is our constitution to allow that our relations with other nations should have an element by which a sitting president can ask for “favors” from foreign leaders that contribute to his own political gain? Please, do not think of just this one president.

I cannot recall any other president doing what Trump has been doing, but he has already heard loud and clear that this is wrong, but he persists. Can you just answer the question?

 

[Guinness]

Nope. Millions of Americans see it that way.

So what? Millions don’t.

WE investigate Americans for corruption. Asking for an announcement of an investigation against the Bidens only serves a political purpose, not a law enforcement purpose.

Who’s is this “WE” you refer to, and so what if it serves a “political purpose”? The investigation of Trump served a political purpose too, but I don’t see you guys squawking about that.

Yes, or soon after. But starting with the CIA or other agency, not in public initially.

It wasn’t in public, it was a private phone call between two national leaders that was leaked.

Three that I know of.

Got some names?

 

[OneSheep]

It wasn’t in public, it was a private phone call between two national leaders that was leaked.

He wanted the Ukrainian president to make a public announcement.

Got some names?

Russia, Ukraine, China

The investigation of Trump served a political purpose too, but I don’t see you guys squawking about that.

The investigation of Trump was for our national security. That they could make political hay out of it was not the motive. There were convictions that came from the investigation, remember?

 

[Nahar]

Is our constitution to allow that our relations with other nations should have an element by which a sitting president can ask for “favors” from foreign leaders that contribute to his own political gain? Please, do not think of just this one president.

We can ask this question until we turn blue in the face. The same question was asked MANY times during the impeachment hearings. It was NOT answered. The trumpians pretended that nothing was asked, and then started YELLING.