THE ELEPHANT IN THE CHURCH a Catholic priest speaks out against homosexual priests

[Kevin_Walker]

tcay584:

Oh cut that out…oops, you already did (out of context)!
This has been bothering me all day. I was really disturbed by the nasty tone of the initial post. It didn’t seem very priestly or christian to me. The fact that the church says that homosexuals cannot be ordained is not my beef, my issue is the degree of hatred and condemnation tossed out towards an entire group of people based on a stereotype. This is the kind of thinking that brought about the Holocaust…that a group of people were somehow just not right, just not equal, just not worth tolerating. I know quite a few gay people, and I just can’t keep their faces out of my mind when I’m hearing all this hate. Sure, I wish they’d change for the sake of their souls, but I’m not going to be their judge, jury and executioner because most of the folks I know are intrinsically GOOD people with one huge cross over their shoulders. I don’t condone their actions, I’d never say it’s godly, but Jesus will be their judge and my job while I’m on this earth is to do my darnedest to show them what Christ is like and hopefully be there for them in love if and when they try and change.
Regards,
Jennifer

Hi Jennifer,

Remember, no one is advocating any kind of violence towards homosexuals, just identifying their condition, a condition which did not bring on the Holocaust, but a condition which brought on the Sex Abuse Scandal within the Catholic Church, because, like the Holocaust, nobody did anything about it before it happened.

 

[katherine2]

Lisa4Catholics:

Nobody said that Katherine, it has been proven that the biggest part of the abuses were homosexual predatory acts,why do you have to twist it around as if they are trying to dismiss hetero attacks?

Yes, Lisa, somebody DID say that. And I carefully checked which Lisa and it was not you. (Jesus help me not to make that mistake again!).

Lisa N posted:

The scandal had everything to do with homosexuality. Look at every single report.

Everything?? How horrid someone would post that. As if these little girls didn’t matter. As if it was the gender not the age of the “other party” is the cause of the scandal.

The scandal has everything to do with the abuse of minors. After that you can start subdividing the scandal into this group and that group but what it is about is the abuse of minors – its the age not the gender of the other party. And because of the age, that person is a victim rather than a co-sinner.

**Don’t **deny the the pain and suffering of these girls. **Don’t **pretend the issue is gender not age.

Those that do, should fear for their souls.

 

[tcay584]

Kevin Walker:

Hi Jennifer,

Remember, no one is advocating any kind of violence towards homosexuals, just identifying their condition, a condition which did not bring on the Holocaust, but a condition which brought on the Sex Abuse Scandal within the Catholic Church, because, like the Holocaust, nobody did anything about it before it happened.

Hi Kevin,
I did not mean to imply that I thought anyone on this board would advocate violence. But didn’t Jesus say that the tongue can be used to slay as much as the sword? This scandal has so devastated our Church and millions of people have been affected, directly and indirectly. However, I still don’t want to see faithful Catholics speaking in such a way as to add a scandal of hatemongering to the scandal that’s plaguing us already. I know this is a Catholic board, but what if some nutcase got on here and thought “Wow! Listen to these folks! I’m gonna go kill me a queer!”. Then he gets arrested and says “Well, I was on this website full of Catholics…”. I know it seems far fetched…ok, maybe even absurd, but you never know.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

tcay584:

Hi Kevin,
I did not mean to imply that I thought anyone on this board would advocate violence. But didn’t Jesus say that the tongue can be used to slay as much as the sword? This scandal has so devastated our Church and millions of people have been affected, directly and indirectly. However, I still don’t want to see faithful Catholics speaking in such a way as to add a scandal of hatemongering to the scandal that’s plaguing us already. I know this is a Catholic board, but what if some nutcase got on here and thought “Wow! Listen to these folks! I’m gonna go kill me a queer!”. Then he gets arrested and says “Well, I was on this website full of Catholics…”. I know it seems far fetched…ok, maybe even absurd, but you never know.

Well, since no one on this Catholic forum that I have read is advocating either violence or hate towards homosexuals, but merely stating facts about homosexuals (it is a condition of irrationality and “objectively disordered”), than the nutcase who tries to blame this website has no case.

 

[tcay584]

Kevin Walker:

Well, since no one on this Catholic forum that I have read is advocating either violence or hate towards homosexuals, but merely stating facts about homosexuals (it is a condition of irrationality and “objectively disordered”), than the nutcase who tries to blame this website has no case.

Not advocating hate?? Have you posted one single post that shows you consider anyone afflicted with homosexuality can possibly, remotely have any redeeming qualities? No. All you’ve done is state your debatable “facts” regarding the homosexual condition. What do you call the absence of compassion if not hate?

 

[Kevin_Walker]

tcay584:

Not advocating hate?? Have you posted one single post that shows you consider anyone afflicted with homosexuality can possibly, remotely have any redeeming qualities? No. All you’ve done is state your debatable “facts” regarding the homosexual condition. What do you call the absence of compassion if not hate?

The absence of love is hate, not the absence of compassion; outside of the sex abuse scandal in the Church, I am ambivulent towards homosexuals. And I have never advocated anything hateful like rounding up homosexuals and shooting them off to another planet, or flamethrowing homosexuals for spreading the AIDS virus around the world, or forcing them to have electronic I.D. to account for their whereabouts, or anyother hateful thing about them?

I have merely pointed out that if there were no homosexuals in the Catholic Priesthood, then there would have been no sexual abuse scandal now rocking the Church.

You cannot at the least deny that homosexuality is "objectively disordered’? And if you have ever had to deal with homosexuals, or ever had to work with them, then you are totally aware that they are not well adjusted individuals and incapable of emotional stability or clarity of thought.

It’s just best to exclude them from the Priesthood just to be on the safeside, just as homosexuals are excluded from the CIA or FBI to be on the safe side; and there is nothing hateful about it.

 

[katherine2]

bring on the tests. we want the tests.

 

[Ghosty]

The Catechism directly defines homosexualilty as “objectively disordered” and your tortured rationalization is unnecessary.

Since when does homosexual impulses being “objectively disordered” mean that such people are irrational in a way that people with the impulse to steal are not? Objectively disordered simply means that it can be seen to be disordered through basic reason. This is no different from theft, murder, or adultery.

Please demonstrate that someone with SSA is inherently irrational (not to be confused with having an irrational desire). A rational person with an irrational desire can supress that desire and not act on it. Please show me that SSA have an inherent inability to rationally supress their desires.

 

[tcay584]

Kevin Walker:

The absence of love is hate, not the absence of compassion; outside of the sex abuse scandal in the Church, I am ambivulent towards homosexuals.

I have merely pointed out that if there were no homosexuals in the Catholic Priesthood, then there would have been no sexual abuse scandal now rocking the Church.

You cannot at the least deny that homosexuality is "objectively disordered’? And if you have ever had to deal with homosexuals, or work with them, then you are totally aware that they are not well adjusted individuals and incapable of emotional stability or clarity of thought.

It’s just best to exclude them from the Priesthood just to be on the safeside, just as homosexuals are excluded from the CIA or FBI to be on the safe side; and there is nothing hateful about it.

Oh Snarf!!! You are impossible. I have had many dealings with homosexuals and have not frequently seen the character traits you mention. I’m sure there are homosexuals who are ill adjusted and emotionally unstable (don’t you go and clip this out of context)…but then again, I know lots of straight people who are also. However, most homosexuals I know don’t really seem that different than the straights I know. Maybe the type of homosexuals in my field of work are less typical of those you obviously are so well acquainted with.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Ghosty:

Since when does homosexual impulses being “objectively disordered” mean that such people are irrational in a way that people with the impulse to steal are not? Objectively disordered simply means that it can be seen to be disordered through basic reason. This is no different from theft, murder, or adultery.

Please demonstrate that someone with SSA is inherently irrational (not to be confused with having an irrational desire). A rational person with an irrational desire can supress that desire and not act on it. Please show me that SSA have an inherent inability to rationally supress their desires.

The topic is the homosexual presence in the Church, and the all the sex abuse caused by those homosexuals in the Church. Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability and that is why the Church has sagaciously defined homosexuality as “objectively disordered” to answer your query.

Your post is a collection of non-sequiturs, Strawman arguments, and other rationalizations.

 

[katherine2]

Ghosty:

Objectively disordered simply means that it can be seen to be disordered through basic reason. This is no different from theft, murder, or adultery.

The term, which has brought a lot of emotional reaction, doesn;t even really have that meaning. A phyiscal disability (being born blind) is an objective phyiscal disorder. Having a non-existant sexual desire is an objective disorder. Autism is an objective disorder.

 

[tcay584]

Kevin Walker:

Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability.

Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability
Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability
Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability
Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability

You are starting to sound like a parrot, Kevin. Repetition does not equal truth.
Regards,
Jennifer

 

[Kevin_Walker]

tcay584:

Oh Snarf!!! You are impossible. I have had many dealings with homosexuals and have not frequently seen the character traits you mention. I’m sure there are homosexuals who are ill adjusted and emotionally unstable (don’t you go and clip this out of context)…but then again, I know lots of straight people who are also. However, most homosexuals I know don’t really seem that different than the straights I know. Maybe the type of homosexuals in my field of work are less typical of those you obviously are so well acquainted with.

My experiences with homosexuals come directly from my first hand experience in 1970 with a Jesuit ‘street priest’ who showed up on my street corner to do ‘social’ work with us kids and ended up sleeping with two of the guys and has been arrested in 2002 in the initial round up of the Boston sex abuse scandal (no, I was never abused); then there was four years in the Navy; then in the merchant marines; then on fishing boats, tugboats, tallships, boatyards, shipyards, & construction sites; in the theater where I rigged up curtains, etc., and they were all negative experiences.

Now with the homosexual/pedophile sex abuse scandal in the Church, I have to argue against all the insipid liberals and ‘fag hags’ who inanely stereotype homosexuals as silly, gentle, fun-to-be-with, misunderstood nice guys who are so very entertaining, and defend these dangerous and emotionally damaged persons to the detriment of society.

 

[katherine2]

tcay584:

Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability
Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability
Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability
Homosexuals are incapable of clarity of thought or emotional stability

You are starting to sound like a parrot, Kevin. Repetition does not equal truth.
Regards,
Jennifer

maybe Kevin needs to work on his own emotional stability

 

[Kevin_Walker]

tcay584:

Oh Snarf!!! You are impossible. I have had many dealings with homosexuals and have not frequently seen the character traits you mention. I’m sure there are homosexuals who are ill adjusted and emotionally unstable (don’t you go and clip this out of context)…but then again, I know lots of straight people who are also. However, most homosexuals I know don’t really seem that different than the straights I know. Maybe the type of homosexuals in my field of work are less typical of those you obviously are so well acquainted with.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

katherine2:

The term, which has brought a lot of emotional reaction, doesn;t even really have that meaning. A phyiscal disability (being born blind) is an objective phyiscal disorder. Having a non-existant sexual desire is an objective disorder. Autism is an objective disorder.

It could also mean given a homosexual’s insipid irrationality of thought, that they are incapable of objectivity - therefore they are “objectively disordered”.

 

[Ghosty]

katherine2: Yes, a person with blindness is objectively disordered, what is your point? It can be seen objectively, by use of unbiased reason, that they have a defect. This applies to ALL disorders that can be seen from reason alone. Natural Law is the moral law that is written into the hearts of all humans, regardless of their religious views; it is an objective moral law. The Church includes theft and adultery as disordered according to Natural Law, the objective moral law. So why are such desires not “objectively disordered” when, by definition, they can be seen as disordered from an objective standpoint?

When the Church calls homosexuality objectively disordered, and rightly so, it is saying that it needs not make any appeal to religious belief to show that it’s disordered, just, in your example, blindness need not have any religious demonstration of being disordered. Incidently, the Church makes the exact same claims about all the sins listed in the Ten Commandments, simply using slightly different words. In fact, it even goes so far as to say that the very desire towards those sins is disordered. Please, look up objective in the dictionary and you’ll see that it quite simply means what I say it means.

Your post is a collection of non-sequiturs, Strawman arguments, and other rationalizations.

Please explain how a post explaining that a) Sinful desires are disorded by reason of Natural (read: objective) Moral Law, and that b) homosexual desires, along with ALL desires that run contrary to objective moral law, are indeed objectively disordered is in any way a non-sequitor. Furthermore, where have I posted a strawman argument of anykind? Every argument I’ve attacked has been posted by someone on this thread.

 

[sbcoral]

Kevin Walker:

And if you have ever had to deal with homosexuals, or ever had to work with them, then you are totally aware that they are not well adjusted individuals and incapable of emotional stability or clarity of thought.

.

You need to get out more often if you think that. Homosexuals are just like me and you, pretty much. My uncle is gay, and he’s a wonderful person. As I’ve said, I am pretty sure both the priests at my parish are gay, and they’re super people. I’ve worked with and befriended many gays over the years. They never tried to molest me, and they were all at least as clear-minded as me, probably more. Many gay men that I’ve known are very sensitive, caring people, more so than lots of straight men. I think your bigotry is apparent.

 

[Ghosty]

And if you have ever had to deal with homosexuals, or ever had to work with them, then you are totally aware that they are not well adjusted individuals and incapable of emotional stability or clarity of thought.

I’m afraid that my experiences run completely contrary to this statement. Every SSA that I deal with regularily is capable of both emotional stability and clarity of thought. Many of them even recognize their attractions as unnatural, which very clearly demonstrates their clarity of thought.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

sbcoral:

You need to get out more often if you think that. Homosexuals are just like me and you, pretty much. My uncle is gay, and he’s a wonderful person. As I’ve said, I am pretty sure both the priests at my parish are gay, and they’re super people. I’ve worked with and befriended many gays over the years. They never tried to molest me, and they were all at least as clear-minded as me, probably more. Many gay men that I’ve known are very sensitive, caring people, more so than lots of straight men. I think your bigotry is apparent.

Homosexuals are nothing like me, or any other heterosexual!

I dispise the euphemism of ‘Gay’ applied to homosexuality, there is nothing Gay about homosexuality, their suicide rate, sado/masochism, irrationality, depression rate, alcoholism, drug abuse, inverterate lying and denial, and anti-social behavior belies that cover-up.

There is nothing ‘Gay’ about a homosexual lying to enter the Priesthood, allowing themselves to be ordained under false pretenses, then living a lie while using their position of authority to target-stalk-bugger/grope little Catholic boys: are you trying to insinuate that that is the definition of GAY and should be applied to the homosexual?

The is the most sophistic apologistic view towards homosexuality I have read outside of a “Gay Rights” polemic.