The organisation behind the Idol (Pachamama) disposal

[IanM]

“If people are committed to attacking what looks like idolatry, they should attack ad orientem because it looks like idolatry. It looks like idolatrous worship of the rising sun as much as bowing to the Pachamama does.”

Er, not really…

“For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be.”

Mathew 24:27
Daouay-Rheims Bible

 

[Cirdan_XII]

I am of mixed mind here.

On the one hand I feel, that if there was genuine dialogue or opportunity for dialogue, this action has killed that off or at least made it much more awkward. It is also disrespectful and insulting and is unnecessarily creating enemies. We need to show respect for genuine heart-felt beliefs of others.

On the other hand, looking at the pictures, I cannot help but feel a tad cynical. What was this dialogue? Was there even a meaningful dialogue? What was discussed? Was anything agreed upon? If so, why wasn’t that reported?

The pictures show various random items from indigenous cultures displayed inside a church. To me that looks more like one of those old-fashioned anthropological museums than degrades the quanitness of other cultures to a form of amusement for urbanites or torture for unwilling school classes forced to parade through it all. Is that a basis for dialogue? It seems to me like some ideological flexing of muscles and occupation of topics and of space that does neither the Catholic Church nor the indigenous cultures any real good but rather seeks to forment division.

I don’t agree with throwing stuff in the river. This reaction has clearly gone too far. But we need to look at what happened before critically and ask exactly what is going on and what it is meant to achieve.

 

[quies]

See, I think the perps acted with total purity of intent - at least at the time of the episode.

The donations are an afterthought.

Reason being, IMO a group that’s only looking to incur some pecuniary gain to finance their start-up organization would have at least thought to write down the dimensions of the mamas-in-question or made a mold of one before hucking 'em into the Tiber?!

That way, instead of jonesing for handouts - a bona fide entrepreneur would have made a bunch of replica mamas out of dried Tiber-mud, autographed their bottoms, and hustled those babies via a buy-it-now on that auction site.

Pshaw, it would’ve been win-win for everybody…

• The “real” idols could still have been given the ol’ Chicago overcoat like they were.
• The haters could have bought the replicas for target practice.
• Those goofs that love 'em could have purchased them to make garden shrines.
• …Heck, the ambivalent folks could turn them upside down, hollow them out, and then use them for tiki-style wastebaskets.

Shoot, I’d of bought two or three myself to replace my tired-out lawn jockey and those two old ugly, rotted plastic pink flamingos in my front yard that the neighbors keep giving me the stinkeye about!

 

[aroosi]

I read the entire publication in Italian. It is a serie of pages in which they are offering material that can be used in small groups for discussion and basic knowledge about the synod and the situation in the Amazon. For example they have a map of the area, a list of the different ethnicities living there, a list of people killed to defend the rights of native in Amazonia etc. There are also Catholic prayers for the synod (page 11 and 22) and a generic prayer to be peacemaker (page 27). The pachamama prayer (page 17) is inserted in the booklet to show the important role of the earth in Amerindian cultures and religions.

Sinodo sull'Amazzonia

cloud.3dissue.com

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Dovekin:

Please note, I have nothing against the use of pagan symbols for Christian worship. I am just observing that people who do object to pagan symbols probably should be protesting against ad orientam worship.

Only if the assumption is accepted that the source of “ad orientam” is from paganism rather than from within authentic Judaism –> Christianity.

The point being that east and west have their own significance in Judaism and Catholicism that does not, in any way, reduce to pagan influence.

That is in no way assumed in what I wrote. I did not say pagan “rather than” Judaism. I quoted a passage about how a “cosmic symbol expresses the universality of God…” The rising sun, the east, has a universal dimension that is recognized in every nation.

The issue is whether the Pachamama also is a cosmic symbol of that type or if it is a solely pagan image. Does Judaism respect “the mother of all the living”? Is fertility important to the religion of the Patriarchs who were promised their descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky? Does birth have an important role in a religion with miraculous births?

If people are committed to attacking what looks like idolatry, they should attack ad orientem because it looks like idolatry. It looks like idolatrous worship of the rising sun as much as bowing to the Pachamama does.

Neither Judaism nor Catholicism divinize cosmic symbolism, attributing godlike powers to natural forces. They are recognized as natural forces under the auspices of God and his providence. There is no “looks like idolatry” anywhere in either Judaism nor Catholicism so you are barking up the wrong tree.

The closest this attribution comes is the personification of wisdom in the book of Wisdom, but that book is a relatively late work that has sufficient Greek influence that Wisdom appears to be remarkably like the Logos of the Greek theistic philosophers or the Word in the Gospel of John.

If you want to push this point your are invited to produce instances of treating natural forces as divinities in any works in the Bible. Mere “cosmic” symbolism or using metaphor or figurative language isn’t anything like paganism where natural forces are personified and divinized. Not the same thing.

 

[Dovekin]

Mere “cosmic” symbolism or using metaphor or figurative language isn’t anything like paganism where natural forces are personified and divinized. Not the same thing.

Yes, that is my point. You got there by a rather circuitous path, but you got there.

Now all you have to do is explain why you think the use of the Pachamama figures was pagan idolatry, and not an acceptable use of cosmic symbolism.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Mere “cosmic” symbolism or using metaphor or figurative language isn’t anything like paganism where natural forces are personified and divinized. Not the same thing.

Yes, that is my point. You got there by a rather circuitous path, but you got there.

Now all you have to do is explain why you think the use of the Pachamama figures was pagan idolatry, and not an acceptable use of cosmic symbolism.

Because Pachamama is worshiped as a GODDESS by the Incas?

Pachamama is a goddess revered by the indigenous people of the Andes. She is also known as the earth/time mother. In Inca mythology, Pachamama is a fertility goddess who presides over planting and harvesting, embodies the mountains, and causes earthquakes. She is also an ever-present and independent deity who has her own self-sufficient and creative power to sustain life on this earth. Her shrines are hallowed rocks, or the boles of legendary trees, and her artists envision her as an adult female bearing harvests of potatoes and coca leaves.

Pachamama - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Seems pretty self-explanatory. I’ve bold-faced the part that sticks out to me, for your benefit.

“Ever-present” “independent deity” with “her own self-sufficient and creative power to sustain life on earth,” doesn’t seem anything like “an acceptable use of cosmic symbolism.” Sounds more like a classic pagan goddess.

 

[Dovekin]

Because Pachamama is worshiped as a GODDESS by the Incas?

Do you want me to post articles showing that the Sun has been worshipped as a GOD by Greeks, Italians, japanese, almost every nation in the world?

And yet, use of the sunrise and the east in Judaism is okay.

So your bluster here does not make your point. It is possible for something worshipped by pagans to be acknowledged and respected by Christians. At least, that seemed to be your point about the sunrise.

Now you reject that principle in favor of anything worshipped by pagans is idolatrous and forbidden to Christians.

I hought we were making progress.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Out of curiosity, do you put up a Christmas tree in your home? Does your parish display one?

Yes but we don’t bow down to it. It is for decorative purposes, that Christian analogies can be applied but that is all nor did the Church ever think of it as anything more than a tree.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Because Pachamama is worshiped as a GODDESS by the Incas?

Do you want me to post articles showing that the Sun has been worshipped as a GOD by Greeks, Italians, japanese, almost every nation in the world?

And yet, use of the sunrise and the east in Judaism is okay.

So you are claiming “use of the sunrise and the east in Judaism” is tantamount to worshiping the Sun as a god?

If that is the level of precision within which you want to operate in this discussion, then carry on without me.

I suppose that me exclaiming, “What a beautiful sunrise!” amounts to Sun worship, according to your understanding? Okee.

 

[Dovekin]

you are claiming “use of the sunrise and the east in Judaism” is tantamount to worshiping the Sun as a god?

I do not know how you can get such an idea from what I wrote.

What I said is the the Sun has been worshipped as God, as in temples to Helios and Sol. So the logic of your last post, that the Pachamam is a pagan idol and so impermissible for the Church, would mean that the Sun cannot be used by the Church.

I beleive that the Sun and related phenomena like sunrise are cosmic symbols that are used universally. Their use as pagan idols does not diminish their use by Judaism or Christianity.

And I would extend the same respect to the Pachamama as an embodiment of fertility and the lifeguving earth. Its use as a pagan idol does not diminish the fertility of the Earth as a part of Judaism and Christianity.

If you cannot follow the parallels, I do not know what I can do to help you understand. It is the way I think.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

you are claiming “use of the sunrise and the east in Judaism” is tantamount to worshiping the Sun as a god?

I do not know how you can get such an idea from what I wrote.

What I said is the the Sun has been worshipped as God, as in temples to Helios and Sol. So the logic of your last post, that the Pachamam is a pagan idol and so impermissible for the Church, would mean that the Sun cannot be used by the Church.

The Sun is a natural, real, and cosmologically significant entity that is critical to life on Earth. Pachamama is not.

For the Church to treat the Sun differently than a Pachamama statue is backed by science and solid theology.

If you cannot follow the parallels,

They are hardly parallel.

Case closed.

 

[Vico]

…

Another example along those lines is the five pointed downward pointing Star of Bethlehem in the Adoration of the Magi , a manuscript illumination by the Master of the Berthold Sacramentary Germany, Weingarten Abbey ca. 1215. That form is hardly seen today in Christianity.

 

[blackforest]

You’re unscoring my point. Idols become idols when we bow down to them.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Perhaps. Bowing to idols can be physical along with being in our hearts and then sometimes we only bow in our hearts by putting something before God.

Placing something that represents a pagan goddess, which people were bowing down to in the garden, in the sanctuary of a Catholic church is putting something before God, even if only in our hearts. It is also an insult to God.

Catholics don’t bow down to Christmas trees in our hearts or physically.

 

[blackforest]

Catholics don’t bow down to Christmas trees in our hearts or physically.

We don’t do that to Amazonian statuettes, either.

Bowing to idols can be physical along with being in our hearts and then sometimes we only bow in our hearts by putting something before God.

Very much agree.

Placing something that represents a pagan goddess, which people were bowing down to in the garden, in the sanctuary of a Catholic church is putting something before God, even if only in our hearts. It is also an insult to God.

They weren’t in a sanctuary. This was an outdoor, interfaith ceremony. Our Holy Father should be commended to reaching out to people of other faiths in prayer to heal our environment . . . not demonized by lay Catholics for hosting them.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

We don’t do that to Amazonian statuettes, either.

But they did in the…

outdoor, interfaith ceremony.

They weren’t in a sanctuary.

They were placed in the chapels at Santa Maria in Traspontina after bowing down to them at the outdoor, interfaith ceremony

Our Holy Father should be commended to reaching out to people

Yes, I agree and I do commend him for reaching out. I don’t commend the actions that happened at the outdoor interfaith ceremony, nor the placing of the mother earth statues in the Catholic church.

 

[Polak]

An update on our ‘hero’ friend from Austria. He is in the USA now. Apparently gave a talk yesterday at the TFP Washington Bureau on ‘his heroic exploits in Rome’. Wonder if some of that donation money went towards his flight?

.(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

So much for ‘this wasn’t done for publicity’.

 

[Aquinas11]

Wonder if some of that donation money went towards his flight?

Yes clearly more important than the $500 million stolen from the Vatican bank to possibly pay for party pads…let’s find out whether the guy who removed a false Idol from a Church got a $300 flight!!

 

[Polak]

A) Why does one thing have to rule out another? You think not liking the fact that this guy seems disingenuous means I don’t care about possible corruption to do with the Vatican bank?
B) What does what you are saying have to do with this topic?