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johnpaul87
Guest
Bravo friend
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johnpaul87
Guest
hi friend, i tried reading some treaties or another. id rather go to the dentist. just curiosity. some site directed me to these archives.im going to draw a line here. early church writing are of men. i let the bible interpret the bible.take a look at the last few sentences in the bible(rev) , then get back with me brother.
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johnpaul87
Guest
oh, BTW Mr. church militant, do you happen to believe anything that is not in scripture. take a long think then get back with me.
po18guy
Well-known member
Jesus said that we must suffer:
Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Mark 13:20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
The days of suffering have been cut short, but those who “persevere to the end will be saved” (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13)
The recent opinions on the “left behind” rapture phenomenon do not square with how God has worked in history: Noah and his family were “left behind” and the evil ones were taken (Genesis 7:21 and Luke 17:27 as well as 2 Peter 2:5). Job and his children were “left behind” as Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. The evil were taken (Genesis 18:19-20 and Luke 17:29). Thus, it appears that if we are the elect, we are more likely to be “left behind”. In either case, what’s to worry?
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johnpaul87
Guest
hi friend, i believe i will be taken. just like someone knows if they are born again. if someone doenst know if they are saved…well quess why?Are you? Are you so sure that you’ll be one of those who will be “raptured”?
po18guy
Well-known member
First, Mr. Junior member, take a look at CM’s number of posts and the content of those posts. Also, the problem with your question is that scripture is not complete. It tells you so in John 20:30 and John 21:25. What’s missing? The Apostolic Tradition that Paul said we should keep. NOTE: This is NOT Pharisaic tradition, but that of the Apostles. The bible also lacks the teaching authority of Christ’s One Church, which produced the bible in the first place.
Just a couple of points to ponder.
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mark_a
Guest
Just in case I haven’t already posted this: biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/rapture_and_the_bible.mp3
gives a good overview of the Catholic view of rapture theology. It also gives an interesting take on who gets “taken” and who gets “left behind”.
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With_Questions
Guest
Now far be it for me to defend the Catholic denomination and actually pretend to speak for Catholics…You’re talking about this ?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”
caught up = rapture
I don’t know what the Catholic interpretation of this is
But…
I do believe your Catholic church believes this Scripture just as much as your local First Fundamentalist King-James Only Bible Baptist church.
The only issue here is the timing of the event relative to other stuff that may or may not occur around the same time.
Now notice that none of the other stuff that may or may not occur is even mentioned in this verse.
So…
If you all believe this verse at face value, then you all believe in “The Rapture of the Church”. Period.
Now you may disagree with your local First Fundamentalist King-James Only Bible Baptist church concerning the timing of this event.
(but pssst that’s ok…I do too)
C
Church_Militant
Guest
See that is where you are wrong.
Where does it say in the Word of God “let the bible interpret the bible”. I’ll need chapter and verse on that please?
The fact is that it doesn’t. Nowhere!
Even without the ECF quotes the scriptures of the New Testament are very clear and if you listen to your pastor from the pulpit an/or read any n-C books then of course I suppose that you have the same response to them, right?
What? No!
So then what you are really saying is that you have not the courage of your convictions to honestly examine opinions different from your own to insure that what you have been taught about Christianity is correct and fully true?Two thousand years of Christianity and you want to ignore everything that Christians have taught for all that time in favor of some modern new winds of post reformation doctrines of men?!!
If you say so.
BTW, I am well familiar with the New Testament and know that you refer to Revelation 22:18 For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book. 19 **And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, **God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book
The passage itself clearly tells us that it is speaking of the book of Revelation itself and not the entire Bible.
If this was applicable then all Bibles with any commentary at all would be condemned, now wouldn’t they? If that is true then the whole Rapture doctrine falls on its face since it wasn’t even accepted until it came out in the Scofield Reference Bible.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Have you visited your local non denominational church down the block? You will hear this left behind series preached and believed in their weekly and Sunday glorified bible studies, monthly if not weekly. Not to mention the “traveling Evangelicals” who preach a wealth and health teaching with the left behind series. This left behind teaching is heard on non catholic radio stations.
In fact this left behind teaching scares the “hell” out of uninformed Catholics and Christians who fill the pews whenever this is taught.
One final thought the Movie series is a work of fiction, but the message is not, it is believed and preached, there is a difference. Satan comes at times disquised as an angel.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Certainly do!
I believe that weather reports are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.
I believe that my country began as a colony of England and gradually expanded to include colonies of other European countries and that in 1776 it became The United States of America and has been around for a tad over 200 years.
I believe that the Earth is round, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West.
I believe that there is a great deal of real verifiable authentic history of the Christian faith available that you choose to try to ignore because you have believed some modern teachings of men and that you have not the courage of your supposed convictions to obey the scriptural mandate that St Paul gave to St. Timothy when he told him.
15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Notice that St. Paul does not tell Timothy to study only scripture. You can get back to me when you are ready to do that.
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ryanoneil
Guest
IT IS AT THE LAST TRUMPET. There will be no pre-trib rapture.
****in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. ** For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:52)
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.(1 Thes 4:16-17)**
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jimmy
Guest
The rapture would be nice but it is not the reality of Christian life or spirituality. Those who persevere to the end will be saved. My post was meant to say that Christ doesn’t keep us from suffering but on the contrary there is meaning in suffering. The three youths in the furnace in the book of Daniel did not seek to be released; they realized that it was in the fire that they encountered God. They sat and praised God for His creation. Like them we are not to seek to be released from the fire because that might be the place where we encounter God.
I know the verses that are used to support the rapture but the intent is not to say that the saints are raptured so that they do not have to suffer persecution.
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johnpaul87
Guest
hi mr. militant. ok, so jesus said not to change the words in revelations. so youre saying then its ok to change the rest of the bible or add to it? typicalSee that is where you are wrong.
Where does it say in the Word of God “let the bible interpret the bible”. I’ll need chapter and verse on that please?
The fact is that it doesn’t. Nowhere!
Even without the ECF quotes the scriptures of the New Testament are very clear and if you listen to your pastor from the pulpit an/or read any n-C books then of course I suppose that you have the same response to them, right?
What? No!
Two thousand years of Christianity and you want to ignore everything that Christians have taught for all that time in favor of some modern new winds of post reformation doctrines of men?!!
If you say so.
BTW, I am well familiar with the New Testament and know that you refer to Revelation 22:18 For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book. 19 **And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, **God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book
The passage itself clearly tells us that it is speaking of the book of Revelation itself and not the entire Bible.
If this was applicable then all Bibles with any commentary at all would be condemned, now wouldn’t they? If that is true then the whole Rapture doctrine falls on its face since it wasn’t even accepted until it came out in the Scofield Reference Bible.
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johnpaul87
Guest
hi jimmy. youre rite jim.the rapture isnt to keep saints from trouble. jesus body consists of all the saved believers. christians. in order for the anti christ to come out god has to leave the earth. when he leaves he takes his body with him. then the earth is turned over to satan. remember me when one day you wake up to the news that people are missing from all over the place. thanks for your response
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johnpaul87
Guest
hi mr. militant. bravo! fancy foot work. alright, so im not just to study scripture. so tell me mr. militant, what extra scripture stuff am i suppose to study? sorry, i dont have any fancy latin words to end my message with like some of you scholars doCertainly do!
I believe that weather reports are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.
I believe that my country began as a colony of England and gradually expanded to include colonies of other European countries and that in 1776 it became The United States of America and has been around for a tad over 200 years.
I believe that the Earth is round, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West.
I believe that there is a great deal of real verifiable authentic history of the Christian faith available that you choose to try to ignore because you have believed some modern teachings of men and that you have not the courage of your supposed convictions to obey the scriptural mandate that St Paul gave to St. Timothy when he told him.
15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Notice that St. Paul does not tell Timothy to study only scripture. You can get back to me when you are ready to do that.
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SD_Catholic
Guest
I highly doubt you’re Catholic… do you think that claiming to be Catholic gives you more credit on this forum? You will get busted harder if you’re a Catholic saying this stuff than if you just admitted what you really were. To come ask questions is good… to come throw your personal interpretations (which aren’t even yours) in the face of people who are giving you things to consider is bad…
Let the Bible interpret the Bible??? We see the fruits of that in the last 500 years… Where there’s an opinion there’s a different interpretation.
SD
po18guy
Well-known member
I must differ with you here. The Church teaches exactly that we will go out to meet Christ when he returns. However, from that point on, it differs with recently promulgated theories. Catholics are permitted to hold to at least two varying beliefs regarding what occurs next. She differs with the very recent developments that all seem to claim that the “saved/elect” will be taken and the “lost” will be “left behind”. This amounts to reading a substantial amount into scripture.
Consider how God has worked through human history: In the case of the great flood (Genesis 7), the sinners were taken and the righteous (Noah/family) were “left behind”. In Sodom (Genesis 19), the sinners were taken/destroyed, while Lot and his family were spared and “left behind”.
Consider Jesus’ parable of the wheat and weeds (Matthew 13:24-30): The master allowed them to grow together. At harvest time, the weeds were taken up first, bundled together and burned in the fire. The wheat, which was “left behind” was then gathered into the master’s barn. Methinks the creators of pop/rapture theory have it 180 degrees off.
If the largest, oldest faith organization on earth, after almost two millennia of study, has said that details are lacking as to Christ’s return, who else can claim competently to know more?
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johnpaul87
Guest
hi SD and thanks for your time. you say i will get " busted"…what, is this the military or the federal govt? isnt this a chat site about a belief system? mr. militant and yourself asked me about my statement about " let the bible interpret the bible. mr. militant asked me where in the bible it says that. I SAID IT. that was an interesting remark by mr. militant. where is that in the bible. 99% of the stuff he believes isnt in the bible. what in the world is wrong with letting the bible explain itself??? OOOPPPS. i always forget who im talking to. many here think someone in a robe is suppose to have all the answers. im not saying i have the answers. im saying look to the bible for answers. interesting why that should tick off people. thanks for all the good resposes here. by the way, i attend mass.
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