The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[justasking4]

Quote:
originally posted by justasking4 #358

My reference about “the dead” is about those who have died here. They are the “dead” to us here.

Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead

It is true that God is the God of the living. However it is a different relationship between the dead and the living. The dead are no longer in this world for one.

And where in scripture does it tell us that? Scripture specifically tells us that they are not dead but alive. So where does scripture tell us that they are dead to us here,

One place to look is Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 which says–
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

contrary to the understanding of early Christians and the apostles Creed of the “communion of saints”?

There is no such term as the " communion of saints" in Scripture. What does it mean and what is the basis for it?

---

Yes, I am a Blood bought, spirit taught, Bible totin’, Scripture quotin’, Christ Followin’, Born Again, Christian Believer from the Tiber Swim team class of 2000.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why would God want the saints who have died and are in heaven to Not Love those alive here on Earth?

Why would God want them to Not pray for those alive here on Earth?

Does God get off on permanent lack of charity?

Who believes in a monster God like that?

 

[s4angel]

Jesus Christ gave to us his mother and said behold your mother.
thats enough for me. Mary is such a wonderful mother. As a mother who lost her first born son I can identify with her pain when she was forced to be seperated from him how much more was her pain after seeing him tortured and knowing who he was. How much more her love for her son. How much more her love for us knowing how much he loved us. Her soul reflected Jesus Christ. She was and is the handmaiden of our God.

The saints reflect what is in their hearts and if God/Jesus Christ was what is reflected can death ever take it away since Jesus Christ overcame death?

How much more powerfully now after the death of their bodies do they reflect what is in their hearts something that death can not take away?

I am not sure who my patron saint is. sometimes I think it is paul because his words speak so powerfully to me. Sometimes I think it is Luke because his words fill me with love. Or perhaps I am wrong and my patron saint changes I don’t know all I know is I wish I had even half of thier faith.

 

[bankerdavid]

As a writer-researcher, 20 years of Biblical studies has helped me to view with a critical stance, in an effort to prove from Biblical writings, archaeology and history, incorrect understandings and what is truth in the written WORD. So . . .

I’ll take 2000 years of biblical studies of the Church Fathers and Magesterium, thanks.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p 670 acknowledges: Usually in the New Testament, – “all prayer, private as well as public liturgical prayer, is addressed to God the Father Through Christ.” … In this reference material, encouragement is given to pray for the saints…but not to them or through them.

John 14: 6, 14 - “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.” – “If you ask for anything in my name (Jesus’ name), I will do it.” … intercession to be heard is through Christ Jesus alone.

1 Timothy 2:5 - “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus.”

Romans 8:34 - “Who is he that will condemn - Christ Jesus is the one who died yes, rather of the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.”

Hebrews 7:25 - “Consequently he (Christ) is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, - because he is always alive to plead for them.”

In Romans 15:30 - The apostle Paul who himself was considered a saint asked his fellow Christians, to pray for him. "Now I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the spirit, that you exert yourselves with me in prayers to God for me . . . . " - Jas. 5:16 also reminds us to pray for each other. But not to or through each other.

John 15:16 - “I appointed you to go on and keep bearing fruit and that your fruit should remain; in order that no matter what you ask the Father in my name (Jesus’ name) he “might” give it to you.”

A Reminder: John 16:23, 24 - “if you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name (Jesus’ name). - Until now, you have not asked a single thing in my name. Ask and you will receive, that your joy may be made full.”

“Jesus Christ is therefore the one and only “way” of reconciliation with God and approach to God in prayer.” See Eph 2:16-18

All of this does not preclude asking the Saints to bring our prayer to Jesus, who will ask God for what we pray for. When we ask the Saints to pray for us to God through Christ, we’re asking them to do for us what we do for them.

 

[bankerdavid]

Quote:
originally posted by justasking4 #358

It is true that God is the God of the living. However it is a different relationship between the dead and the living. The dead are no longer in this world for one.

One place to look is Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 which says–
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

There is no such term as the " communion of saints" in Scripture. What does it mean and what is the basis for it?

Don’t you know that when we die, our physical bodies die, but our souls remain alive? There are no dead bodies in heaven. And dead souls are usually in hell.

---

Yes, I am a Blood bought, spirit taught, Bible totin’, Scripture quotin’, Christ Followin’, Born Again, Christian Believer from the Tiber Swim team class of 2000.

 

[justasking4]

Why would God want the saints who have died and are in heaven to Not Love those alive here on Earth?

Why would God want them to Not pray for those alive here on Earth?

Does God get off on permanent lack of charity?

Who believes in a monster God like that?

There is no need for any saint to intercede for you here. Christ is more than sufficent for your needs. God has more than demonstrated His love for us by sending Christ into the world to die for our sins.

 

[justasking4]

I’ll take 2000 years of biblical studies of the Church Fathers and Magesterium, thanks.

All of this does not preclude asking the Saints to bring our prayer to Jesus, who will ask God for what we pray for. When we ask the Saints to pray for us to God through Christ, we’re asking them to do for us what we do for them.

I’m confused. How do these passages you quote support praying to saints?

 

[MariaG]

This is true. However the context is always for those alive in this world. Those that are living here.

Would you happen to have the verse for this? It’s certainly not Hebrews 12:1.

This is true. However, it is you who is making this claim and you need to show this is actually the case.

This is not a question of “How” but what do the scriptures teach about this? If you want to go beyond what is written in Scripture, then you are going to have to show how a person who makes such statements is telling you the truth or makiing it up.

I’m not sure who you are referring to here. It certainly not those of the NT church.

Protestants don’t depend on “Oral Traditions” but the Scriptures.

There are major problems when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. For one, how do you know that the person who is telling you to pray to a saint knows that specific saint can hear you? This is impossible to know since there is no way to know with any certainty that so and so is in any position to hear and do something about your prayers. No one knows the the state of a dead person.

Exactly. This is speculation. This is what happens when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures do give us the confidence that we can pray directly to Christ because He alone intercedes for us. Only He can hear our prayers and has the power and authority to answer them. With this great promise there is no need to pray to any saint, Mary or angel. Christ is all you need.
God Bless,
Maria

Hi Justasking.

I do not have the time to respond to your post. My time on the internet has been severely limited. I am posting this so I can easily find (and remember ) that I need to respond to your questions.

I think soon I will have “retire” for awhile after all the threads I am in die a natural death (although I am prolonging this one it seems ), I will be back within the week, possibly the day:shrug: but any reply would take more time than my “quick look” would allow.

If anyone else has responded and I missed it in my skim, or anyone is going to respond, I thank you

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

But again, scripture DOES teach specifically to the fact that Saints are supposed to pray for one another and ask each other for prayer.

This is true. However the context is always for those alive in this world. Those that are living here.

No, that is how you have interpreted the text. Scripture that has been repeatedly quoted to you, tells us that the saints in heaven are living not dead. You have interpreted all reference to saints to only refer to those who are here on earth.

And again, we can see that the early Christians disagree with your interpretation. The Catacombs from the 1st and 2nd centuries are covered with requests for prayers from the saints in heaven.

The Apostles creed speaks of the “communion of Saints”. This refers specifically to the mystical body of Christ of which the saints in heaven are part of.

Scripture DOES specifically speak to those who have died being aware and concerned for those still on earth.

Would you happen to have the verse for this? It’s certainly not Hebrews 12:1.

In Rev. 5:8 we see the elders, the saints in heaven, presenting the prayers of the saints on earth to God.

We also see in scripture the parable of Lazarus and the rich man that even those who go to hades, care about those still on earth. Luke 16:19–31

Further, we can see in Jewish traditions, that they believed that Father Abraham could hear them and looked kindly upon them.

And further, we see the writings of the early Christians, who confirm that the Catholic interpretation is the valid one of exactly what “communion of Saints” is all about.

Cyprian of Carthage

“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (*Letters *56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

And scripture does NOT tell us that once we are saints in heaven, that we are no longer supposed to pray for those on earth.

This is true. However, it is you who is making this claim and you need to show this is actually the case.

You have it backwards. Although I have in fact shown you scripture, I have also then shown the beliefs of the Early Church. It is only 1600 years after the fact that people have come along with different beliefs.

Apparently you believe that God let His Church stumble and fall since these beliefs are clearly reflected in the 2nd and 3rd century of Christianity?

But again, we are supposed to follow what is written and what is oral and the communion of the saints, although written about quite early, is part of that oral Tradition we are told to hold fast to.

As for the HOW it can be done, it is only through God’s mercy and Grace.

Maria

This is not a question of “How” but what do the scriptures teach about this? If you want to go beyond what is written in Scripture, then you are going to have to show how a person who makes such statements is telling you the truth or makiing it up.

It is you who have gone beyond what is written. Where in scripture does it tell us we have written it all down now, only follow the written? Where does it tell us that scripture is the final authority?

The word of God is the Word of God. God inspired written word as surely as He inspired the spoken word.

2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t

I have shown the scripture as well as the historical words of Christians in the first few centuries of Christianity. All you have shown me is your interpretation of Scripture that is nowhere in the history of Christianity until a short few hundred years ago.

 

[MariaG]

As for speculation, it is not speculation to show that the very first Christians practiced this and believed in this the very same manner that Catholic Christians do.

I’m not sure who you are referring to here. It certainly not those of the NT church.

Yes, I most certainly am refering to the NT Church. Again, all you have to offer is your interpretation of Scripture and your interpretation of the apostles creed as to what “communion of Saints” means.

I have scripture, jewish beliefs, and Early Christians who all believe that the saints in heaven can hear our requests and present our prayers to God. What do you think the cloud of witness’s is in Heb? The Elders in Rev?

Scripture tells us to hold fast to Tradition whether by word or by letter. Another thread, but where is the Oral Tradition we are supposed to hold fast to according to your Church?

Protestants don’t depend on “Oral Traditions” but the Scriptures.

And Protestants have to then discard and ignore scripture as a result. The word was meant to be preached and entrusted to faithful men. Not entrusted into a book. No book was given the final authority. Living breathing men were given the authority.

But again, I cannot stress this too much. You say you only follow scripture. But scripture itself tells you to hold fast to the oral tradtions given to you. You have lost the oral tradtions and don’t even seem to know this or care.

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men

Or where does scripture tell us that it has all been written down now, only follow the written in books xyz, since Luther disagreed with the Christians of 300 AD?

There are major problems when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. For one, how do you know that the person who is telling you to pray to a saint knows that specific saint can hear you? This is impossible to know since there is no way to know with any certainty that so and so is in any position to hear and do something about your prayers. No one knows the the state of a dead person.

There are not major problems when one trusts in the Lord. I trust in Christ. I trust in His word. And His word tells me that the Mt 16:18 Gates of Hell will never prevail, that Jn 14:16 - Holy Spirit will be with you always and my God is big enough to lead a whole church and not just me individually.

I also know that we will be guided to all truth Jn16:13, we will be reminded of everything Jn 14:26, And most importantly, I know that scripture tells me that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of Truth” 1Tim 3:15.

It is His very Word, scripture, that led me to the truth of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Where is the spoken word of God scripture tells us to hold fast to?

 

[MariaG]

As for your question about purgatory, there really is no answer for that. Especially since the Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is a place at all. But rather that we will be completely Holy and completely cleased by Christ’s blood. Whether this is instantaneous thing as some believe or whether it is an actual place where “time” is spent as others believe is simply speculation.

Exactly. This is speculation. This is what happens when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures do give us the confidence that we can pray directly to Christ because He alone intercedes for us. Only He can hear our prayers and has the power and authority to answer them. With this great promise there is no need to pray to any saint, Mary or angel. Christ is all you need.

Exactly nothing.

If you want a discussion on all the scripture that I can show you about purgatory, start a new thread and ask. But my response was to your questions and any answer would be purely speculative and not part of the official teaching of the Catholic Church contrary to what you seem to think.

There is not official teaching on whether or not those “in” purgatory can hear us because purgatory is NOT defined as a place at all in Catholic teachings.

posted by justasking4

The secondary issue is: how do you the state of a catholic who has died? If they are in purgatory, can they hear your prayers to them from there?

I have to say further, that you seem to be under the impression since you constantly bring it up, how we go “beyond” scripture. This is simply not true. The Catholic Church is very scriptural. We follow all scripture including that which tells us to follow the oral and the written and have not added manmade doctrine of “scripture alone” which is not found in one verse in scripture itself.

Ironic, you look to scripture as the final authority, yet nowhere in that sacred word does it tell you to do so

God Bless,
Maria

 

[epostle]

There are major problems when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach.

First you are assuming the scriptures can teach without a teacher. This is impossible and illogical, as scripture does not teach thousands of conflicting interpretations. Neither does the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 4:6 -. Many scholars believe the phrase “don’t go beyond the scriptures (above the line)” was inserted by a translator as an instruction to someone in the translation process. Others say Paul is quoting a proverb regarding kids learning to write by tracing letters. By saying don’t go above line, Paul is probably instructing them not to be arrogant. But even if the phrase is taken literally, to what was Paul referring? The Talmud? The Mosaic law? The Old Testament Scriptures? This is a problem because there was no New Testament canon at the time Paul wrote this, and the text says nothing about the Bible being the sole rule and guide of faith.

There are also many other things, which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25) I don’t think it is your intention to accuse St. John of “going beyond what is written” regarding revealed truths, or claiming that St. Paul is referring to the whole of New Testament scriptures that had not yet been fully enscripturated. There are major problems when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach.is not very honest.

There is not one verse in scripture that says the bible “teaches” or interprets itself.

There is not one verse in scripture that says only doctrines explicitly found in scripture is trustworthy, because not the text or even the concept is found anywhere in scripture.

These obstacles must be overcome before “Communion of Saints” and many other doctrines can make any sense. The Body of Christ on earth can not afford to re-commit the sins of our spiritual ancestors. Deep down, every true believer aches of the wounds to unity. Theological smarts is the wrong place to start. The healing of the wounds has already begun. The “Kingdom of God” is both heaven and earth, as Jesus uses the term as “either/and”, not “one-meaning-opposed-to-the-other”. In Catholic hospitals, clinics, hospices, after-school programs, camps, soup kitchens, day care centers, mental institutions, third world missions and the like, all men and women of good will from all denominations are one in acts of love. That is where we begin understanding the Communion of Saints and the Kingdom of God. It’s where the rubber meets the road in terms of ecumenism.

Separating the saints on earth from the saints in heaven is the same as separating the Kingdom of God. Heaven is not a retirement home and certain saints have certain jobs. This explains the countless miracles throughout the centuries that God did from their intercession. including the saints on earth. We (in heaven and earth) are one family in Christ, devotions (on earth) help us be one with Christ (who is in heaven and earth) so those on earth can interceed for each other in the same way those in heaven interceed for us.

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

MariaG;2524275]No, that is how you have interpreted the text. Scripture that has been repeatedly quoted to you, tells us that the saints in heaven are living not dead. You have interpreted all reference to saints to only refer to those who are here on earth.

Where in any passage of scripture in context leads you to believe they are speaking of someone who has died and gone to heaven? Its the context of the verse-passge that determines this question.

And again, we can see that the early Christians disagree with your interpretation. The Catacombs from the 1st and 2nd centuries are covered with requests for prayers from the saints in heaven.

All this shows is a superstitous belief. Who exactly were the people who wrote these prayers? Do you what kind of knowledge they had of the after life?

The Apostles creed speaks of the “communion of Saints”. This refers specifically to the mystical body of Christ of which the saints in heaven are part of.

Does it say in the creed that these saints in heaven can hear your prayers?
How do you know even if the person is in heaven to begin with?

In Rev. 5:8 we see the elders, the saints in heaven, presenting the prayers of the saints on earth to God.

Again, this is not prayers being said directly to some saint.

We also see in scripture the parable of Lazarus and the rich man that even those who go to hades, care about those still on earth. Luke 16:19–31

Is this what Jesus was teaching here i.e. people who have died care about us or was it about judgement and rejection of Christ?

Further, we can see in Jewish traditions, that they believed that Father Abraham could hear them and looked kindly upon them.

No doubt many believe such things. However that does not make it true.

And further, we see the writings of the early Christians, who confirm that the Catholic interpretation is the valid one of exactly what “communion of Saints” is all about.
Cyprian of Carthage

“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (*Letters *56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

How does Cyprian know it is like this in heaven?

You have it backwards. Although I have in fact shown you scripture, I have also then shown the beliefs of the Early Church. It is only 1600 years after the fact that people have come along with different beliefs.
People can believe errors for a long time. So it is here.

Apparently you believe that God let His Church stumble and fall since these beliefs are clearly reflected in the 2nd and 3rd century of Christianity?

Since Jesus never promised that His church could not teach error or that they would be led astray by false teachers in their midest i’m not suprised there are false teachings in your church and others.

But again, we are supposed to follow what is written and what is oral and the communion of the saints, although written about quite early, is part of that oral Tradition we are told to hold fast to.

The problem with these “oral traditions” is that there is no evidence for what they were. Do you what any “oral tradition” of the apostles not found in scripture?

 

[justasking4]

Part 2

It is you who have gone beyond what is written. Where in scripture does it tell us we have written it all down now, only follow the written? Where does it tell us that scripture is the final authority?
For one thing it is the scriptures alone that are inspired-inerrant. There is no greater authority than that. Not even your church or its leaders are inerrant-inspired. The Scriptures alone are the final authority in these matters.

COLOR=#000000]The word of God is the Word of God. God inspired written word as surely as He inspired the spoken word.

Where is this “inspired spoken word of God” to be found?

2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter

Whose traditions is Paul referring to here?

SIZE=3]2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition

Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture

What other “things” not recorded in scripture are you referring to?

Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t

I have shown the scripture as well as the historical words of Christians in the first few centuries of Christianity. All you have shown me is your interpretation of Scripture that is nowhere in the history of Christianity until a short few hundred years ago.

What i have shown you is that when you study the scriptural passages used for praying to the saints are not what the scriptures teach. Look at the context in every verse-passage used and you will not see any appeal to someone who has died.

 

[justasking4]

epostle;2524695]First you are assuming the scriptures can teach without a teacher. This is impossible and illogical, as scripture does not teach thousands of conflicting interpretations. Neither does the Holy Spirit.
I agree. however the scriptures do teach that false teachers will come into the church and decieve many.

1 Cor. 4:6 -. Many scholars believe the phrase “don’t go beyond the scriptures (above the line)” was inserted by a translator as an instruction to someone in the translation process. Others say Paul is quoting a proverb regarding kids learning to write by tracing letters. By saying don’t go above line, Paul is probably instructing them not to be arrogant. But even if the phrase is taken literally, to what was Paul referring? The Talmud? The Mosaic law? The Old Testament Scriptures? This is a problem because there was no New Testament canon at the time Paul wrote this, and the text says nothing about the Bible being the sole rule and guide of faith.

Since your church claims to be the only church with the authority to interpret the scriptures, what do they offical say about this passage?

There are also many other things, which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25) I don’t think it is your intention to accuse St. John of “going beyond what is written” regarding revealed truths, or claiming that St. Paul is referring to the whole of New Testament scriptures that had not yet been fully enscripturated. There are major problems when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach.

is not very honest.
Using a john 21:25 as some kind of justification for the docrines of Mary is absurd. That fact that John mentions this has nothing to do with the marian docs but with the life of ministry of Christ. If there is any dishonesty its on those who misuse the scriptures to support doctrines that the scriptures don’t.

There is not one verse in scripture that says the bible “teaches” or interprets itself.

Christ gave the church teachers to teach the scriptures. Also, there are many passages in scriptures that shed light on other passages.

There is not one verse in scripture that says only doctrines explicitly found in scripture is trustworthy, because not the text or even the concept is found anywhere in scripture.

There is nothing like the scriptures. Only they are inspried-inerrant and not doctrines. It is by the scriptures that we grow in respect to salvation. See I Peter 2:2.

These obstacles must be overcome before “Communion of Saints” and many other doctrines can make any sense. The Body of Christ on earth can not afford to re-commit the sins of our spiritual ancestors. Deep down, every true believer aches of the wounds to unity. Theological smarts is the wrong place to start. The healing of the wounds has already begun. The “Kingdom of God” is both heaven and earth, as Jesus uses the term as “either/and”, not “one-meaning-opposed-to-the-other”. In Catholic hospitals, clinics, hospices, after-school programs, camps, soup kitchens, day care centers, mental institutions, third world missions and the like, all men and women of good will from all denominations are one in acts of love. That is where we begin understanding the Communion of Saints and the Kingdom of God. It’s where the rubber meets the road in terms of ecumenism.

Separating the saints on earth from the saints in heaven is the same as separating the Kingdom of God. Heaven is not a retirement home and certain saints have certain jobs. This explains the countless miracles throughout the centuries that God did from their intercession. including the saints on earth. We (in heaven and earth) are one family in Christ, devotions (on earth) help us be one with Christ (who is in heaven and earth) so those on earth can interceed for each other in the same way those in heaven interceed for us.

This all sounds great but has no basis in scripture. For one you have no way to know if a specific dead person you may pray to can hear your prayers. You don’t know, nor does your church know if that person is in purgatory or hell. The Only one we are commanded to pray to is God.

 

[MariaG]

Part 2

For one thing it is the scriptures alone that are inspired-inerrant. There is no greater authority than that. Not even your church or its leaders are inerrant-inspired. The Scriptures alone are the final authority in these matters.

But where in scripture does it tell us that scripture is the final authority? I see where scripture tells us to “take it to the church”, tells us that scripture can be hard to understand and some will twist it to thier own peril.

This does not even address the issue of whose INTERPRETATION of scripture one should believe, but lets keep it simple…

Where in scripture does it tell us it has all been written down now, you no longer need to follow the written and the oral, only follow the written?

But I see that this has now strayed from the thread content.

But ultimately I don’t think there is anything else to talk about. You believe that God was unabale to lead us to all truth for over 1500 years and I believe the promises in scripture came immediately.

I could go point by point to your two posts but so far, I at least tried to give you scripture when asked, even though you disagree with the interpretation but you fail to show me where your contention that scripture is the final authority actually is in scripture:shrug:

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2524284]Exactly nothing.

If you want a discussion on all the scripture that I can show you about purgatory, start a new thread and ask. But my response was to your questions and any answer would be purely speculative and not part of the official teaching of the Catholic Church contrary to what you seem to think.

I know the doctrine of purgatory and there are major major problems with it.

There is not official teaching on whether or not those “in” purgatory can hear us because purgatory is NOT defined as a place at all in Catholic teachings.

**

I have to say further, that you seem to be under the impression since you constantly bring it up, how we go “beyond” scripture. This is simply not true. The Catholic Church is very scriptural. We follow all scripture including that which tells us to follow the oral and the written and have not added manmade doctrine of “scripture alone” which is not found in one verse in scripture itself.

There is no such thing today as the “oral teachings of the apostles”. The only record we have of the apostles is the Scriptures. it may have been true at one time but no today. This is why “oral traditions” carry no weight in this discussion of praying to the saints.

Ironic, you look to scripture as the final authority, yet nowhere in that sacred word does it tell you to do so

God Bless,
Maria

What other authority do you know that is inspired-inerrant? It surely not your church leaders who are composed of fallen men.

 

[justasking4]

But where in scripture does it tell us that scripture is the final authority? I see where scripture tells us to “take it to the church”, tells us that scripture can be hard to understand and some will twist it to thier own peril.

This does not even address the issue of whose INTERPRETATION of scripture one should believe, but lets keep it simple…

Where in scripture does it tell us it has all been written down now, you no longer need to follow the written and the oral, only follow the written?

But I see that this has now strayed from the thread content.

But ultimately I don’t think there is anything else to talk about. You believe that God was unabale to lead us to all truth for over 1500 years and I believe the promises in scripture came immediately.

I could go point by point to your two posts but so far, I at least tried to give you scripture when asked, even though you disagree with the interpretation but you fail to show me where your contention that scripture is the final authority actually is in scripture:shrug:

Your right your comments are off thrread. Look at those passages in scripture that your church uses to justify praying to saints in context and you will see they don’t support this idea of imploring help from them.

 

[MariaG]

I agree. however the scriptures do teach that false teachers will come into the church and decieve many.

Yes, scripture does warn this.

Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest. He certainly qualifies as a man who decieved many.

2Pet2:18-22
18] For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error.
19] They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved.
20] For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21] For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22] It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

 

[MariaG]

Sparked by the following post:

I know the doctrine of purgatory and there are major major problems with it.
.

Let’s discuss that here. Problems with the doctrine of Purgatory.

First, let’s put up what the teaching of purgatory is.

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439)S 1304; Council of Trent (1563)S 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274)S 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

Which part is in error?