The Slaughtering of Animals in Factories. Moral dilemmas in the modern world

[fix]

vern humphrey:

Be careful what you wish for . . .

Indeed. It is worth repeating here:

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

 

[tcay584]

fix:

2418 It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery.

Hmmm, so would this make spoiling Poochie a venial sin?

 

[fix]

tcay584:

Hmmm, so would this make spoiling Poochie a venial sin?

Perhaps. IMO, we have two extremes today. On one side are institutions like the fast food industry that seem to abuse, or act callously, toward animals and on the other side we have plenty of folks who almost worship animals or put them on a level they should not be placed.

Our cultue is kooky.

 

[mosher]

tcay584:

Phooey on you, you great big meanie. :tsktsk:
If no animals go to heaven…boy, do I ever wish I was a vegetable!

lol

My Moral Theology Professor would always love to remind people that their pets would not be in heaven - He always did it with a smile. However, for children he would go the St. Bonaventure route and say that in so far as they made you happy that happiness that was found in your pet would virtually be found in God.

 

[springbreeze]

mosher:

lol

My Moral Theology Professor would always love to remind people that their pets would not be in heaven - He always did it with a smile. However, for children he would go the St. Bonaventure route and say that in so far as they made you happy that happiness that was found in your pet would virtually be found in God.

Dear friend

Your Professor knew this categorically how? No-one knows who or what will be in heaven unless it is human and has been beatified by the Church. So just how does your professor friend know there will not be animals in heaven, seeing as God can create and re-create at will?

You professor is promoting his own theories on this and cannot confirm without doubt anything he is spouting out as gospel!

The Father knows when a sparrow falls from the sky, a small and seemingly worthless sparrow, this shows how great His love is for humans and our worth to Him, but it also shows that the Father loves the sparrow also and since He created it, it has remained in His mind.

Just because we can eat an animal and perhaps the animals purpose of existance is eventually to be eaten, does not mean that hands out carte blanche to treat them without love and kindness whilst they are still alive and further to this, why is it such a hardship to treat animals with kindness? Animals that we eat we owe to our survival by the grace of God, could we not show them a little kindness.

These theories you express run down the drain along with the theories of consciousness someone else expressed and as with every unproven theory it is most seriously open to running down the drain! At the end of the day these are just your opinions.

When I meet my maker, I would like to say I am truly sorry for all of my sins and I did my best to be kind to all of His creatures.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[batteddy]

What about the gorillas and chimpanzees who learned several hundred words of sign language? Seems like more than organic robots to me.

And what about computers that can communicate with humans much better than these animals?? SmaterChild for instance if anyone knows what that is. It’s a relatively simple program actually.

Your problem is equating emotions and intellegence with Consciousness and a Spiritual Soul.

There could be computers a thousand times smarter than humans, in fact, there perhaps soon will be. Ones that will be able to simulate humanity perfectly. Doesn’t mean they have a soul. Inside, they are still just empty. Blacked-out. Unconscious. Nothing to themselves, for the have no self.

 

[springbreeze]

batteddy:

And what about computers that can communicate with humans much better than these animals?? SmaterChild for instance if anyone knows what that is. It’s a relatively simple program actually.

Your problem is equating emotions and intellegence with Consciousness and a Spiritual Soul.

There could be computers a thousand times smarter than humans, in fact, there perhaps soon will be. Ones that will be able to simulate humanity perfectly. Doesn’t mean they have a soul. Inside, they are still just empty. Blacked-out. Unconscious. Nothing to themselves, for the have no self.

Dear friend

Another good theory, but God did not create the computer…man did, however man did not create the animals, God did! If you want to kick a computer it feels no pain, you kick a dog and it yelps, it bleeds, it becomes fearful of you and you have offended God by being cruel to an animal, His animals, period. Animals have souls, they do not possess a spiritual soul however, but by the very fact they live they serve God and humanity.

I see humans who are less conscious than others, I see humans who are less intelligent than others, this does not give an person the right to treat them differently or with no love or kindness, but society seems to be going this way and promotes euthansia as well as other abohrrent things such as , deliberate sterilisation, mass genocide, abortions etc.

Just because we are in charge , does not mean we can do anything we decide to do, there are rights and wrongs in all things. It is wrong to be cruel and cause unnecessary suffering to an animal. Period. If my dog was drowning and my child at the same time was and I could only save one of them , I would save my child, that’s about the only time I would be unkind to an animal.

Retruning to the original post…Yes it is cruel to mass farm animals in unnatural surroundings, to manipulate their bodies to such an extent that they cannot function as the animal God created them to be and to slaughter them inhumanely and we will all have to answer for that.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[HelpingHands]

I want to bring up another aspect of meat eating that hasn’t been brought up, aside from the fact that modern animal husbandry techniques are cruel to animals,

There was a book back in the 70’s called http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/events/bancroftiana/120/images/recipe4.jpg The book was full of well researched data supporting the fact that a diet heavily based on animal products uses far more acreage per calorie of protein. Our American husbandry methods of fattening up beef with grain are wasteful of the earth’s precious resources.

I’ve found some sites explaining this.

The Case Against Meat Evidence Shows that Our Meat-Based Diet is Bad for the Environment, Aggravates Global Hunger, Brutalizes Animals and Compromises Our Health

Loaves and fishes in reverse- Global hunger and the meat-based diet

In fact, reading an considering this subject makes me want to cut back on my own consumption of meat. Thanks for this thread!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Another good theory, but God did not create the computer…man did, however man did not create the animals, God did! If you want to kick a computer it feels no pain, you kick a dog and it yelps, it bleeds, it becomes fearful of you and you have offended God by being cruel to an animal, His animals, period. Animals have souls, they do not possess a spiritual soul however, but by the very fact they live they serve God and humanity.

I see humans who are less conscious than others, I see humans who are less intelligent than others, this does not give an person the right to treat them differently or with no love or kindness, but society seems to be going this way and promotes euthansia as well as other abohrrent things such as , deliberate sterilisation, mass genocide, abortions etc.

Just because we are in charge , does not mean we can do anything we decide to do, there are rights and wrongs in all things. It is wrong to be cruel and cause unnecessary suffering to an animal. Period. If my dog was drowning and my child at the same time was and I could only save one of them , I would save my child, that’s about the only time I would be unkind to an animal.

Retruning to the original post…Yes it is cruel to mass farm animals in unnatural surroundings, to manipulate their bodies to such an extent that they cannot function as the animal God created them to be and to slaughter them inhumanely and we will all have to answer for that.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

And the only answer to this is as fix posted earlier.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

Animals do not have an immortal soul, only man does.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

HelpingHands:

I want to bring up another aspect of meat eating that hasn’t been brought up, aside from the fact that modern animal husbandry techniques are cruel to animals,

There was a book back in the 70’s called The Bancroft Library | UC Berkeley Library The book was full of well researched data supporting the fact that a diet heavily based on animal products uses far more acreage per calorie of protein. Our American husbandry methods of fattening up beef with grain are wasteful of the earth’s precious resources.

I’ve found some sites explaining this.

The Case Against Meat Evidence Shows that Our Meat-Based Diet is Bad for the Environment, Aggravates Global Hunger, Brutalizes Animals and Compromises Our Health

Loaves and fishes in reverse- Global hunger and the meat-based diet

In fact, reading an considering this subject makes me want to cut back on my own consumption of meat. Thanks for this thread!

All this denies the fact that man is an omnivore. Which is how God created us.

 

[HelpingHands]

Hello Byz Catholic!

Is that all you have to say? Did you read the statistics provided in my links? I think we are intelligent children of God, made in his image and likeness. We are able to consider the ethics and morality of our actions, not just omnivorous beasts with no reason.

I posted another thread about the impact of our Western eating habits on global hunger. I think global hunger and wise use of farmlands and resources is an important subject, don’t you?

Global Hunger and Meat-based Diet

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

HelpingHands:

Hello Byz Catholic!

Is that all you have to say? Did you read the statistics provided in my links? I think we are intelligent children of God, made in his image and likeness. We are able to consider the ethics and morality of our actions, not just omnivorous beasts with no reason.

I posted another thread about the impact of our Western eating habits on global hunger. I think global hunger and wise use of farmlands and resources is an important subject, don’t you?

Global Hunger and Meat-based Diet

Again, God created us as omnivores, why deny this? Nothing better than a nice tasty buffalo wing or some sushi… mmmmm, now I am getting hungry.

As for your statistics and propaganda, no need to read it as I thoroughly enjoy meat and statistics can be manipulated to say just about anything. The fact is man was made to eat meat and there is no prohibition to be found against eating meat in the Bible or the Traditons of the Church. Heck, even Jesus ate meat.

As Benjamin Disraeli (1804 - 1881), British prime minister 1868, 1874-1880, said, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

 

[HelpingHands]

LOL, Byz,
Too bad you aren’t open to new information. If you had followed this thread, though, you’d see that I’m not a vegetarian nor am I advocating that people become so. My premise is that we follow the advise of the Catechism and treat animals that we use for food and clothing with the gentleness that God’s precious creation deserves. My second point is that if we all eat less animal products, that it is easier on our planet, our farmland, and better for all of humanity. We can feed more people with less farmland! I think that’s a worthy goal!

 

[springbreeze]

HelpingHands:

LOL, Byz,
Too bad you aren’t open to new information. If you had followed this thread, though, you’d see that I’m not a vegetarian nor am I advocating that people become so. My premise is that we follow the advise of the Catechism and treat animals that we use for food and clothing with the gentleness that God’s precious creation deserves. My second point is that if we all eat less animal products, that it is easier on our planet, our farmland, and better for all of humanity. We can feed more people with less farmland! I think that’s a worthy goal!

Dear friend

Yes it is a very worthy goal and I’d like to think that I am more than my stomach!

I could never eat another piece of meat and survive healthily. Eating meat day in and day out is purely a matter of taste and for my matter of taste to be part of the reason other people suffer, well I think I should well and truly re-examine my tastes!

Thank you Helping Hands, you’ve done me a favour, no more red meat as of NOW.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[HelpingHands]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Yes it is a very worthy goal and I’d like to think that I am more than my stomach!

I could never eat another piece of meat and survive healthily. Eating meat day in and day out is purely a matter of taste and for my matter of taste to be part of the reason other people suffer, well I think I should well and truly re-examine my tastes!

Thank you Helping Hands, you’ve done me a favour, no more red meat as of NOW.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Dear Springbreeze,
Thank you for your post. I’m really glad for this thread because it’s causing my to reexamine some of my eating habits and revisit the idea of a less meat-centered diet. Everything we do, the choices we make, impact others. And, as you say, we shouldn’t be slaves to our appitites. I’m going to make a concious effort to reduce my meat consumption. It’ll save money too!
Sincerely, HH :angel1:

 

[mosher]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Your Professor knew this categorically how? No-one knows who or what will be in heaven unless it is human and has been beatified by the Church. So just how does your professor friend know there will not be animals in heaven, seeing as God can create and re-create at will?

You professor is promoting his own theories on this and cannot confirm without doubt anything he is spouting out as gospel!

The Father knows when a sparrow falls from the sky, a small and seemingly worthless sparrow, this shows how great His love is for humans and our worth to Him, but it also shows that the Father loves the sparrow also and since He created it, it has remained in His mind.

Just because we can eat an animal and perhaps the animals purpose of existance is eventually to be eaten, does not mean that hands out carte blanche to treat them without love and kindness whilst they are still alive and further to this, why is it such a hardship to treat animals with kindness? Animals that we eat we owe to our survival by the grace of God, could we not show them a little kindness.

These theories you express run down the drain along with the theories of consciousness someone else expressed and as with every unproven theory it is most seriously open to running down the drain! At the end of the day these are just your opinions.

When I meet my maker, I would like to say I am truly sorry for all of my sins and I did my best to be kind to all of His creatures.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Quite frankly because it is a proposition given by St. Thomas

 

[springbreeze]

mosher:

Quite frankly because it is a proposition given by St. Thomas

Dear friend

It’s St Thomas’ theory and it is not Gospel, it is not part of the deposit of faith and has not been declared doctrine. It’s a theory and no-one should get too carried away with theories as to base their life on them!

Pope John Paul II had theories on animals, he said they had souls and if you like I’ll find those theories out for you, he’s up for being a beatified also and he’ll be a 20th century Saint. How do you answer about theories now?

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Ruthie]

Aurora 77,

“We don’t NEED meat to survive. We do need some of the (very few) nutritious things that it provides.”

That was my point! Don’t remove meat from your diet without replacing the essential nutrients it contains… I can see how that may have sounded. But I will nit-pick and say that, without replacing those nutrients artificially, we do indeed need meat to survive.

“My discussion about eliminating meat from the diet was directed at a poster who seemed intelligent enough to understand that you don’t just not eat meat…”

But you should never take that for granted. (No insult intended to the poster you were addressing!) I would rather state the obvious needlessly that not state it when it was needed.

“The other problem I have is where you say that ‘cows are bred to be stupid.’ To me, this is a slippery slope argument.”

There’s truth to that. In truth, beef cattle are bred to get big & muscley & fat. The stupidity is more a side effect. As I said, smart cattle are troublemakers. It’s easier for the rancher to have them slaughtered than to keep them.

“… chickens. The kind they got were specifically bred to put on so much weight that they’d be unable to move at 4 months, so they could be slaughtered earlier. I find this a disgusting manipulation of life.”

Ditto. And, I’d bet that, if they didn’t need them to walk to their fates, “they” would have done that to cattle, too. So - what we need are 1200 pound chickens… !

“Oh, yeah, Ruthie, if you’re a carnivore, you may be in trouble–you really need to be eating some fruits and vegetables along with your meat! ”

You’re right. OK, I admit it, I’m an omnivore! And I could certainly improve my diet, as you’d know if you could see me. I am, to put it kindly, rotund.

I could live happily on a nice rib steak, a good salad (mine have more cukes and tomatoes than lettuce), and strawberries or blueberries. That, say, 5 days a week, with some chicken alfredo and/or seafood pasta the other two days.

Hey, that reminds me, I got a watermelon in the fridge - see you later!

 

[Adonis33]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

It’s St Thomas’ theory and it is not Gospel, it is not part of the deposit of faith and has not been declared doctrine. It’s a theory and no-one should get too carried away with theories as to base their life on them!

Pope John Paul II had theories on animals, he said they had souls and if you like I’ll find those theories out for you, he’s up for being a beatified also and he’ll be a 20th century Saint. How do you answer about theories now?

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

I would like to read where Pope JPII said animals have souls.

Animals do not have am immortal soul.

 

[HelpingHands]

I’m wondering if some people on this thread are feeling judged or condemned because others of us are suggesting a reexamination of some of our attitudes about animal husbandry? I just want to say, I’m certainly not feeling that way. But, I want to present information so we can all be more conscious.

As far as animals having souls, the Church teaches that all beings have souls, though not in the image of God like humans. Even in the old testament, when instituting the Sabbath, God told the Isrealites that even the beasts of burden were to rest on the Sabbath. These laws that God sent were for the good of all.

It’s actually in our self interest to treat animals humanely, because then they are healthier, and we are healthier. When modern overcrowding exists, then other unhealthy interventions such as heavy use of antibiotics and hormones must be used, which are harmful to our health.

Also, if we eat less animal products, we are healthier, our planet is healthier, and there is more food to go around! No one has to totally give up meat to accomplish those goals. I’ll admit, I love a nice rare ribeye myself now and then! Moderation, I believe, is the key, and facing facts, many of us in the prosperous nations have trouble moderating our appitites due to the bountiful abundence that we possess!