The term "Herd immunity" only refers to those who live. Please stop using it?

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Stop using it as some rhetorical weapon. You couldn’t have stopped it, nobody in power could’ve (besides the Chinese). Standing on graves is an awful, immoral rhetorical practice, meant to condemn and shame others. Don’t do it.
I am well aware that people are going to die and there there’s a lot that’s out of our control.

At the same time, we can’t be flippant about it and say: “oh well, people are going to die anyway, so it doesn’t matter what we do,” which is how I perceived the tone of the post I was responding to.
 
Im an RN. Unfortunatley parents dont know if their infant is one of the rare children to have a severe effect by their vacccines, the first time its given and then its too late. thats why there is the Vaccine Injury law no one hears about that has paid out billions of dollars to injured children after their parents have to go through difficulty proving it. Its absurd how many vaccines are given to infants today but it comes down to parents needing to do their research beforehand about the risks.
 
…it comes down to parents needing to do their research beforehand about the risks.
But you also said:
Unfortunatley parents dont know if their infant is one of the rare children to have a severe effect by their vacccines.
So by your own admission, parents cannot “do their research” because there is nothing they can find out about their particular situation.
 
And if people die, it’s on them. They were never fit to begin with and only the fit survive.

How Darwinistic. From self-identified pro-lifers too.
No one is being cruel by recognizing that some people will die and some will live. It’s reality in this fallen world.

I like the analogy of driving a car, or travelling in a car. It is a fact that people die or undergo massive life-changing injuries in car crashes. When we go somewhere in a car, we could become one of the deaths or major injuries.

So we take simple precautions–wearing seatbelts, wearing glasses and hearing aids if we need them, not drinking and driving, making sure we have had enough sleep, not trying to eat our dinner while we’re driving, iff possible planning a route that does not take us through heavy traffic, keeping our car in decent condition, etc.

But no matter how many precautions people make, some will die.

Is this reason to get rid of all cars–to stop people from dying? I’m thinking that if someone I loved is ever killed in an auto accident, I might feel that way for a while.

But it’s not realistic in today’s world. And it’s not cruel to recognize that some will die in auto accidents and most will live and we will all keep driving anyway, any more than it’s cruel to recognize that some will die from COVID-19 (or other infectious diseases) and some will live, but we all have to keep living our lives in public, not staying safe at home.

We CAN"T stop basic living to save every life in the world! It won’t work. We will all die anyway of something.

I remember hearing comedian Redd Foxx talking about giving up smoking, drinking, staying out late–and sittin’ aroun’ dyin’ of nuthin! 🙂
 
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exactly and they can consider saying no to their infant being vaccinated and demand it not be mandated the way it is set up. Many parents delay the vaccines until the child is older and their brains are developed and some just dont vaccinate them at all. but you probably know this.
 
exactly and they can consider saying no to their infant being vaccinated and demand it not be mandated the way it is set up. Many parents delay the vaccines until the child is older and their brains are developed and some just dont vaccinate them at all. but you probably know this.
But without any justification for why their child should be excused from vaccination, there is no reason why their child should be given special treatment. And if you are implying that nobody should be required to be vaccinated ever, well, that is just not something I would expect any RN to say. I can see delaying vaccination while the child is kept at home. But once a child starts mixing with children outside that family and in society in general, an obligation arises to protect the society in general, and that is when some sort of reasonable mandates are justified.
 
They can do resesrch about relative risk though. No you can’t predict whether you’re going to be the unlucky recipient of a 3% chance side effect. But parents can certainly get a feel for whether these risks are too high and act accordingly.
Unless there is specific information about their child that makes that child more at risk than other children generally, there is nothing to research, other than public policy. And we have public health officials to do that. If something thinks the public health policies are wrong for the public, there are ways to attempt to change public policy. What you are describing is not an individual decision because it affects more than the individual and his family.
 
Unless there is specific information about their child that makes that child more at risk than other children generally, there is nothing to research, other than public policy
Some vaccines have decades of history, their safety record is well known, and the potential consequences of skipping the vaccine are overwhelming.

Other vaccines have less of a proven safety record, and the benefits are far less obvious.

A parent may be aware this child or a sib has has had a reaction to an earlier vaccine with similar ingredients.
 
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@Anonkun, what you failing to acknowledge and accept is the communal nature of communicable disease. If contracting a disease only affects the individual, one might reasonably argue that the individual should be allowed to make his own decisions regarding his own safety. But when contracting a disease increases the danger for the whole community, that decision can no longer be left up to the individual, but must be made by the community acting in the common good.

If that is not clear, consider this analogy. During the Blitz in London, the Londoners were ordered to turn off their lights at night during a raid. Does it make sense to argue that each individual Londoner should have been allowed to make that decision for themselves without any coercion? Of course not. The danger is communal, therefore the actions taken to combat that danger must also be communal.
What’s wrong with this picture?
What’s wrong with the picture as you have painted it is that it is a straw man. The reasonable “Vaxxer” (i.e. society) does not claim that if one person fails to get vaccinated the rest of the society will all get sick. It is a matter of risk. The risk goes up a little for each person who does not get vaccinated. This is OK as long as the number is vanishingly small. But when a sizeable number of people join the “anti-vaxxers”, the combined added risk becomes significant, as we have already is isolated outbreaks of measles among communities with strong views against vaccination. To use another analogy, it does not hurt the grocery store if one person shoplifts a single avocado. But when 200 people a day shoplift an avocado, it starts to hurt.
A parent may be aware this child or a sib has has had a reaction to an earlier vaccine with similar ingredients.
That may very well qualify for a medical exception. There are already provisions for that sort of thing. By the very nature of the situation, that number is almost certain to stay small so that granting those exceptions will not significantly harm the overall effort to combat the disease.
 
I have no problem with parents that delay the initial vaccines in their newborns for a bit. The problem is assuring they don’t forget to get them after waiting. Delay for a year isn’t usually an issue though I worry about delaying the MMR for more than 6months as measle outbreaks are rising alarmingly.

The problem is forgetting. At a year old, moms are so busy that forgetting is just too easy to do. If they are responsible enough to make sure they resume or start vaccinating, fine. I have no appreciation for anti vaxxers, however. Their arguments are hogwash.
 
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@Anonkun, what you failing to acknowledge and accept is the communal nature of communicable disease. If contracting a disease only affects the individual, one might reasonably argue that the individual should be allowed to make his own decisions regarding his own safety. But when contracting a disease increases the danger for the whole community, that decision can no longer be left up to the individual, but must be made by the community acting in the common good.
I don’t get this. Since the vaccine protects an individual from getting the disease, why can’t it be up to an individual if he wants a particular vaccine? Me deciding against it doesn’t hurt you in any way since you are vaccinated and therefore won’t catch the disease from me. How is there a danger to the community at large? Sounds like the only danger is to those who chose to take the risk.

And by the same logic, should the flu vaccine be required?
 
that all sounds great in theory but if your the parent of one of the unlucky victims of vaccine injury that changes everything doesnt it? Im an RN who witnessed one of my own infants have a bad effect, not permanent thank God but the pediatrician revealed to me the pertussis part of the dtap was being stopped for everyone so she skipped it from my daughters following vaccines and also held it back from my next child. They got the replaced pertussis years later in middle school, and were fine. No harm came from delaying but I began to research in depth everything I could find about what the vaccine industry does. Others have to do their own research.
 
If you can prove you are perfectly healthy, then sure, no reason for you to wear a mask. How many people can do that? Not even a negative covid-19 test is perfect assurance that you are not infected. And even if it is accurate, it only says you are not infected the day you take it. The test proves nothing about you a week later. So the only people that could possibly be excluded from having to take social distancing precautions are the very few who got a negative covid-19 test the same day. That is a fraction of a percent of the US population. It would be crazy to try to structure a rule that allowed for that exception. It would be impossible to administer. I that clearer?
I work in a lab, and we do the COVID-19 tests in our department (the rapid tests, done in one hour).

I’m beginning to think we are wasting our time testing people. You say that not even a negative COVID-19 test is perfect assurance that you are not infected. Well, then WHY BOTHER? You might test negative, and then within the next HOUR, become infected and spread COVID-19 everywhere. The test seems rather useless, and all that money being spent on increased testing should perhaps be spent in more useful ways.

Maybe along with a vaccine, we need to do some very honest studies (ha ha, that’lll be the day!) to determine whether this belief that “even asymptomatic people are capable infecting others” is valid. If it IS valid, then we are all doomed. Lovely. Doomed and still not allowed to attend Mass regularly in many areas.

And we can quit running around like chickens with our heads cut off doing these stupid COVID-19 tests. Yesterday, a couple of hours of my work time was spent tracking down a test that had “gone missing” because the patient (no symptoms of COVID-19) was scheduled for surgery in the afternoon. Meanwhile we were getting more and more behind on our other work.
 
Since the vaccine protects an individual from getting the disease, why can’t it be up to an individual if he wants a particular vaccine?
Because not getting the vaccine endangers others, because that individual goes out into society and mixes with others.
but if your the parent of one of the unlucky victims of vaccine injury that changes everything doesnt it?
Only if the number of such cases is enough. If it is that dangerous then no kid should get the vaccine.
 
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Because not getting the vaccine endangers others, because that individual goes out into society and mixes with others.
NY State is now mandating vaccines for conditions that are not contagious. The mandate formerly covered public schools, now Public and private schools. Eventually it will be extended to home schoolers.

The repeal of the religious exemption was aimed at prolifers.

Those who oppose the most recent, mandated controversial vaccine of at best marginal benefit are on the internet being equated with those who want to want to return to the era of polio outbreaks.

There is a bandwagon effect, momentum for vaccines.
 
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And only the people who hasn’t had the vaccine will be endangered by the non-vaccinated people. So the anti-vaxxers will only be endangering themselves and other anti-vaxxers? Seems fair to me.

I am pro-vaccines and my children will get them, but I absolutely can’t condone the government forcing vaccines upon anyone.
 
And only the people who hasn’t had the vaccine will be endangered by the non-vaccinated people. So the anti-vaxxers will only be endangering themselves and other anti-vaxxers? Seems fair to me.
You are forgetting about those who cannot take the vaccine because of a medical deficiency. These are not anti-vaxxers and they depend on the rest of us to keep them safe.
I absolutely can’t condone the government forcing vaccines upon anyone.
Yet you expect society to allow those same people who refuse vaccination to mix with the rest of us? To go to school with our kids? To spread disease to our kids? I absolutely cannot condone that.
 
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