The Vatican Condemned Halloween Last Year

[Julianna]

LOL…I love Halloween! It’s alive and well in our house. So is the “santa lie” as I’m hearing it so sadly called on CAF lately. Apparently the hardcore folks who are trying to de-cafeteriacize themselves no feel it necessary to bash Halloween and Santa Claus. I’m sure the evil Tooth Fairy and leprachauns are next

I sure don’t know where this evangelical/fundementalist Catholicity is coming from…

In a neighborhood ninety something percent Catholic…as a child…we all hit the streets on Halloween night.

Visits to the store (before malls) to sit on Santa’s lap and a picture too…were the norm. As kids…our neighbors…and in school…“public school”…we wrote letters to Santa Claus…and the teacher mailed them for us. In Catechism class we learned about Saint Nicholas…we knew they were one in the same…only the “American” version of Santa Claus dressed a bit different than the European Santa Claus.

The Easter Bunny always left us a basket of treats and small toys on Easter morning. Only we could not eat one piece of a chocolate bunny until after Mass. My Italian aunts made Easter pizza and bread with hard boiled eggs, shell and all baked in it.

Fast Forward…Charleston SC…on St. Patricks Day…the Hibernian Society members would march down King Street for the St. Pat’s parade drinking green beer. All of them members of a Catholic Parish in Charleston.

Tooth Fairy…yes, she visited me…I got a quarter for a tooth. Flash forward to my kids…inflation brought it to $1.00.

I don’t get where some of these people are coming from…

 

[pnewton]

First, this article is from USA Today saying that the Telegraph that said that L’Osservatore Romano said that Joan Maria Canals said…

Come on. If the Holy See wants to put out instructions, it is a sure bet that it will not use the secular media, especially questionable ones, to make its will known to the faithtul. I could find nothing pastoral on the USCCB website on the issue either.

My son has two costumes. St. Michael for the Church carnival and school. A ninja for trick or treat.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

My son has two costumes. St. Michael for the Church carnival and school. A ninja for trick or treat.

Which kind? An old fashioned one?

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Or the latest revision?

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[gurneyhalleck1]

Wait a minute, Julianna, are you saying that we can believe in Christ, His Church, the communion of saints, be well-catechized, believers and yet still have some fantasies for kids without emotionally scarring them for life? Cool, dittoes!

The hardcore evangelically-minded in here who think of “the santa lie” will tell you that back in those days those Catholics weren’t really Catholics but phony cafeteria Catholics who weren’t well-catechized and abused their kids with unhealthy fables, lies, devilry, hurtful stuff. Oh brother…

It’s ironic how much both secularists AND excessively-zealous Christians are both doing their best to ruin our country’s traditions. The secularists want to destroy the religious holidays. The hardcore fanatical folks in Christianity (not mainstream) want to abolish any secular or traditional fun in holidays. What you net is ZERO.

I sure don’t know where this evangelical/fundementalist Catholicity is coming from…

In a neighborhood ninety something percent Catholic…as a child…we all hit the streets on Halloween night.

Visits to the store (before malls) to sit on Santa’s lap and a picture too…were the norm. As kids…our neighbors…and in school…“public school”…we wrote letters to Santa Claus…and the teacher mailed them for us. In Catechism class we learned about Saint Nicholas…we knew they were one in the same…only the “American” version of Santa Claus dressed a bit different than the European Santa Claus.

The Easter Bunny always left us a basket of treats and small toys on Easter morning. Only we could not eat one piece of a chocolate bunny until after Mass. My Italian aunts made Easter pizza and bread with hard boiled eggs, shell and all baked in it.

Fast Forward…Charleston SC…on St. Patricks Day…the Hibernian Society members would march down King Street for the St. Pat’s parade drinking green beer. All of them members of a Catholic Parish in Charleston.

Tooth Fairy…yes, she visited me…I got a quarter for a tooth. Flash forward to my kids…inflation brought it to $1.00.

I don’t get where some of these people are coming from…

 

[Andre1000]

In Germany reformation day is at the same day as Halloween and because of that the people stopped caring about reformation day and do not praise Luther for his sins.
So I like Halloween.

 

[shondrea]

First, this article is from USA Today saying that the Telegraph that said that L’Osservatore Romano said that Joan Maria Canals said…

Come on. If the Holy See wants to put out instructions, it is a sure bet that it will not use the secular media, especially questionable ones, to make its will known to the faithtul. I could find nothing pastoral on the USCCB website on the issue either.

My son has two costumes. St. Michael for the Church carnival and school. A ninja for trick or treat.

I actually do like the idea of religion-inspired costumes (as long as the kids wants that). I mean, once he knows what angles REALLY are, and not adorable floating naked babies, what little boy WOULDN"T wanna be that cool?

 

[Lujack]

The hardcore evangelically-minded in here who think of “the santa lie” will tell you that back in those days those Catholics weren’t really Catholics but phony cafeteria Catholics who weren’t well-catechized and abused their kids with unhealthy fables, lies, devilry, hurtful stuff. Oh brother…

This I really have to agree with. I mean, my father grew up in an all-Italian neighborhood and walked to an ethnic parish in the early 1960’s, and my mother grew up in an Irish neighborhood on the other side of the same city, and there was Halloween with trick-or-treating, and Christmas trees and Santa Claus, and eggs from the Easter Bunny.

I guess they all must have been doing it wrong…

 

[Julianna]

This I really have to agree with. I mean, my father grew up in an all-Italian neighborhood and walked to an ethnic parish in the early 1960’s, and my mother grew up in an Irish neighborhood on the other side of the same city, and there was Halloween with trick-or-treating, and Christmas trees and Santa Claus, and eggs from the Easter Bunny.

I guess they all must have been doing it wrong…

Are you saying this went on "pre-VAT 2’???

gurneyhallek…did you read what I read???

Lujak…same here. Grew up in the Diocese of Springfield, MA. Italian neighborhoods, Irish neighborhoods…my dad knew them well in the 40’s…and I was a tot in the early 60’s.

My dad took me to the Italian Club to see “Santa”. When we moved to the foothills of the Berkshires…our neighborhood was just about solid Catholic. Trick or Treaters everywhere…and ya know…I don’t remember anyone dressed as a saint. An angel…maybe one or two.

Where oh where is this evangelical/fundy Catholicism coming from?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Maybe that’s because they don’t view Luther in light of his “sins” but in light of his beginning the Reformation, for his courage in standing up to the Catholic Church, and for his strong sense of conscience. Or maybe they don’t celebrate Luther and the Reformation anymore because they don’t care about Christianity AT ALL in Germany! I would think that you’d prefer them to be Lutherans and fans of Luther and followers of Christ as Protestants rather than as secular atheists/agnostics at best.

In Germany reformation day is at the same day as Halloween and because of that the people stopped caring about reformation day and do not praise Luther for his sins.
So I like Halloween.

 

[Mintaka]

Halloween is Catholic. Going souling to collect stipend money for Masses for the Poor Souls in Purgatory, or food and clothes for the earthly poor’s winter survival, is Catholic. (And that’s why UNICEF put their collection time at Halloween – muscling in on our territory.) Giving out treats and wearing crazy festival costumes is Catholic.

Not everybody has to have the same ethnic traditions of Catholicism (the Spanish Spanish have more of a Mardi Gras thing going, whereas the Mexicans ended up more on the Halloween side like the Galician Spanish, if I recall correctly), but it’s nice to participate in the fun side of Catholic traditions.

Of course, in the US, a lot of different ethnic traditions have blended together. It’s too cold for most German-Americans to walk around with candle lanterns and costumes and fireworks on St. Martin’s Day like in the old country, so that fed into Halloween. And so on, with a lot of stuff from all sorts of countries. Adjusted for what the harvest time is and when the cold sets in, most Catholic countries have one last party time to run around in the early dark with lights and bonfires, and do funny activities to burn off steam after harvest, and stuff your faces to put on a little fat for the winter. Ours just happens to agree pretty well with Ireland and Scotland’s.

As for the “glorification” of death – my dear friends, there are plenty of people on these forums who will tell you that Catholics shouldn’t wear crucifixes, or even think about Our Lord on the Cross, because that is glorification of death. We look at the most horrible thing humans have ever done, and it inspires us to be like Jesus, not like Pontius Pilate or a Roman soldier or the Bad Thief. So our kids dress up as evil monsters and ghosts the same way actors dressed up as the Devil in Passion play cycles – to inspire onlookers with mockery of evil and death as “that which is not” and love of the good as “that which is”, a thing which lasts forever.

 

[colmcille1]

Hi all,
I thought I would share with you what halloween is in Ireland today.
Halloween night is the busiest night for fire crews up and down the country.
A and E wards are stuffed with people with burns from bonfires or “bangers” going off prematurely; and there are the usual amount of drunks who earlier were poured into an ambulance at a beer ‘n’ bonfire party.
Many elderly folks hate halloween as they are naturally scared of thugs fighting and vomiting and urinating in the streets.
Many animals suffer horrific injury and fright as the “fun-loving” Irish do their thing.
This is Ireland 2010. This is where halloween began. Nice, isn’t it?
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Irish get drunk and go on a debauched kick on St. Patrick’s Day, too. What’s your point? Cancel St. Patrick’s day? I hate to hear about animals getting injured or abused. That sickens me as I’m a huge animal fan, total softie. But if people are cruel to animals, which I detest, it’s not Halloween, it’s the sick mindset of individuals. It’s like a baseball game. You always have drunks at the game and sometimes drunk drivers and deaths ensue outside stadiums. I’m a big baseball fan. LOVE IT. And I can’t blame the game on the loons that use it as a chance to get wasted…

I sure applaud and appreciate your love of animals, colmcille!

Hi all,
I thought I would share with you what halloween is in Ireland today.
Halloween night is the busiest night for fire crews up and down the country.
A and E wards are stuffed with people with burns from bonfires or “bangers” going off prematurely; and there are the usual amount of drunks who earlier were poured into an ambulance at a beer ‘n’ bonfire party.
Many elderly folks hate halloween as they are naturally scared of thugs fighting and vomiting and urinating in the streets.
Many animals suffer horrific injury and fright as the “fun-loving” Irish do their thing.
This is Ireland 2010. This is where halloween began. Nice, isn’t it?
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[colmcille1]

The Irish get drunk and go on a debauched kick on St. Patrick’s Day, too. What’s your point? Cancel St. Patrick’s day? I hate to hear about animals getting injured or abused. That sickens me as I’m a huge animal fan, total softie. But if people are cruel to animals, which I detest, it’s not Halloween, it’s the sick mindset of individuals. It’s like a baseball game. You always have drunks at the game and sometimes drunk drivers and deaths ensue outside stadiums. I’m a big baseball fan. LOVE IT. And I can’t blame the game on the loons that use it as a chance to get wasted…

I sure applaud and appreciate your love of animals, colmcille!

Hi gurneyhalleck,
Thank you for your reply.
My point in posting what I did is that as long as such behaviour exists, no amount of talk about halloween can justify it’s existence as a day of “celebration”.
Your link between halloween and St Patrick’s Day is weak because the latter is about a family day out at a parade to honour our national Saint; the former relies on the spiritually blind night as a kickback to pagan ritual.
Both of course are absurdly commercialised and that should be borne in mind when “celebrating”.
The Aussies do not mark halloween at all. We should follow their lead.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Your link between halloween and St Patrick’s Day is weak because the latter is about a family day out at a parade to honour our national Saint; the former relies on the spiritually blind night as a kickback to pagan ritual.

What’s weak is your assertion that just because a holiday is somehow Christian (e.g. honoring a saint) it somehow excuses any unbecoming behavior that occurs during its festivities.

 

[colmcille1]

What’s weak is your assertion that just because a holiday is somehow Christian (e.g. honoring a saint) it somehow excuses any unbecoming behavior that occurs during its festivities.

Hi Lost Wanderer,
Thank you for your reply.
I did not assert any such thing. I drew the distinction between the two. The “unbecoming behaviour” is there all the time; but at least with St Patrick’s Day (which is fully, not “somehow” Christian) there are family parades throughout the country. One attends Mass on March 17th to honour the great St Patrick. No such obligation exists for halloween. BTW, if you wish to have living proof of the religiousity of St Patrick’s Day you need look no further than our valiant cousins in New York; they rightly maintain the Catholic ethos of their great parade by refusing any entry to the gay agenda. Long may that last.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[colmcille1]

Hi Jharek,
Thank you for your reply.
I suppose that is true re fireworks. However, perfidious Albion did not introduce us to drink.
We always were, are still are, sadly, more than capable of falling done in a stupor all by ourselves.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[pnewton]

I just read about that one. That is one creepy holiday. Not such a good day for Catholics.

 

[Adeodatus]

Sorry for the slow reply, I missed it earlier.

Yes, as long as parents make it clear in that way, I’d think no harm would be done. I was never lectured in that manner by my parents, but it’s possible my short lived fascination with the occult had something to do with the fact my mother had a ouiji board. Indirectly. And I do recall vaguely, her telling me of a family member in a rural area that was a witch. It’s really not all that absurd to think impressions can be made on children when they are vulnerable. ( my parents were practicing Catholics )

As far as the death penalty for witchcraft, I’d tend to accept it if the church felt that way. But since the days of Papal Monarchies are past, seemingly, it’s really not an issue I suppose.

Given how this thread is going, it’s easy to miss something!

I think we’re basically in agreement. Kids are prone to the occult because they’re curious about the world but have fuzzy intellects, so you have to take responsible steps to make sure that they know to avoid it. It’s like the hot stove: they only know to avoid it if they’ve been told about it, or if they’ve been burned. Better to tell them than allow them to be burned.

In the main I see Halloween as a bit of harmless fun. I don’t understand the acrimony in this thread, however. It really isn’t that big of a deal.

As far as the death penalty for actual witchcraft, I should make it clear that historically that has been the province of the state, and the Church had little involvement even in the prosecution of witches until 1484 when Pope Innocent VIII issued Summis desiderantes affectibus which enjoined certain German inquisitors to act directly against outbreaks of witchcraft in several dioceses. In general, though, it has been the Catholic tradition to let the state handle the destruction of witches… the idea of the Catholic Church staging ‘witch hunts’ is largely a myth. In fact, the oft-reviled Spanish Inquisition (which unlike most juridical bodies of the time insisted that the defendant have legal counsel, and that a physician be present during torture so that no permanent harm was done to the subject… remember that it was widely the case that the testimony of peasants was inadmissable unless obtained under torture) tended not to take claims of witchcraft very seriously, and was reluctant to administer a penalty in all but the most egregious circumstances.

If nowadays we had just and upright states, basing their governance on true moral principles, then witches would be seen as enemies of the state as well as of the Church. However I think a moderate view is a good thing to have on this: on the one hand we can agree with Frs. Kramer and Sprenger that to deny the very existence of witches manifestly savors of heresy (the German opinion); but on the other hand I think we can also accept that many accusations or admissions of witchraft are baloney and to be viewed critically (the Spanish opinion).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t think the point is weak at all. I know the difference between St. Patrick’s Day and Halloween and I’m not making a judgment about either one. What I am saying is that anyone can turn a holiday, whether it is a serious and solemn holiday or not, into a drunken spree. The Irish turn just about every holiday into an excuse to hit the brew, right? And Americans tend to turn every holiday into a commercial venture, sadly. That was my point. If it’s not Halloween, the Irish will find secretary’s day to party hardy at the pub LOL… Take your pick, leap year, solstice, arbor day, earth day or breast cancer awareness day, you can turn anything into a brewsky time…

I love Halloween. I don’t see the harm in it. I agree with your concern about animals 100%. but I think the holiday in general is fun and harmless. We enjoy it a lot by and large here in the states and I will continue to do so. We just disagree here but that’s ok.

Hi gurneyhalleck,
Thank you for your reply.
My point in posting what I did is that as long as such behaviour exists, no amount of talk about halloween can justify it’s existence as a day of “celebration”.
Your link between halloween and St Patrick’s Day is weak because the latter is about a family day out at a parade to honour our national Saint; the former relies on the spiritually blind night as a kickback to pagan ritual.
Both of course are absurdly commercialised and that should be borne in mind when “celebrating”.
The Aussies do not mark halloween at all. We should follow their lead.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[Julianna]

Putting witches to death, those were the days. Now with some enlightment and education…the cause was bad rye.