Thousands protest immigration proposal

[wabrams]

Kendy:

My argument is, 11 million, of which I was once one of, have escaped desperate situations by breaking US laws. There is no denying that.

I thought you came here from Haiti?

Kendy:

However, anyone who thinks that a mother will not lie to feed her children (if she has no honest means) or a father will not forge documents to keep his daughter from getting raped (if he has no other recourses) lives in La-La land. Until we have laws (and foreign policies— but different threads) that recognize these two realities, you’re going to get illegal immigration.

I agree to a certain degree. But what has sparked this whole debate is not Haitian immigrants, it’s Mexican immingrants.

Kendy:

Furthermore, the law has ignored the fact that there is a great market within the US for these workers that is not about to disappear.

There’s also a great market for organs in this country, but you don’t see any laws makinig it legal to openly sell them.

Kendy:

And if you try to retroactively punish 11 million people by locking them up or deporting them, you will only cost yourself tons of money, harm the economy,

No one is going to deport or lock-up 11 mil. if they register under the proposed amnesty program.

Kendy:

and not to mention civil unrest since there are many Americans who disagree with the law.

I would be willing to bet the number whop agree greatly outweighs the number who disagree.

Kendy:

So, let’s fix the law to recognize these realities. Make anyone worked under the table pay back taxes, give a reasonable fine. And move on.

Great idea, but if they still won’t do that then they need to be arrested and deported.

Kendy:

It’s really your only choice.

Not really, but it’s the easiest course of action. And the way you wrote that sounds almost like the rest of the country is backed into a corner.

Kendy:

Just like there’s not going to amnesty, those of you who want to see illegal immigarnts suffer are also not going to get what you want

Kendy

I have a good feeling there will be an amnesty. No one wants to see them suffer and you know that, but what we want is some order, a method to the madness if you will.

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

You legally became a citizen and so could they. You say that they would at the first opportunity, but some have been here for over 2 decades and hadn’t done anything about it.

I became a legal resident after living in the U.S. illegal for 10 years. I didn’t stay in an unsafe situation for 10 years until the U.S. accepted my application. I will agree with you on one think the system does provide perverse incentives. If we could have just applied we would have just come here, but instead, they provided amnesty for a bunch of Haitians who had been here illegal in one swoop, rather than accepting more applications every year.

wabrams:

Maybe the one’s who genuinely waant to be naturalized.
The rest pay with false SSN’s, or they get paid cash so it doesn’t get reported.

Even if you don’t care much for America, the benefits of becoming a citizens are huge.

wabrams:

You honestly expect me to sit here and believe that most people from Mexico would even consider paying for forged docs? What kind of idiot do you think I am?

I don’t understand why that makes you an idiot. But I am trying to explain what it’s like to be the other side of the issue and I am not sure you are fully aware of that perspective.

I also don’t understand why you think that some of them wouldn’t. It’s nearly impossible to operate here without some documents.

wabrams:

You must think I’m really an idiot to believe they are breaking no laws to come over here undocumented and not even trying to apply for citizenship.

I never said that they are not break laws to come here. I am saying, they would never consider breaking any other law. These are not hard core criminals. They are the people in our parishes.

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

Logical fallacy.

This was in response to what I said, it’s lot safer to pay taxes than avoid the IRS.

Like I said before, I am not going to go into how it’s done. But the IRS is alot more interested in breaking taxes than INS is in catch illegal aliens. Thus, it is a lot safer to pay taxes than to not. You can do this for years and not get caught, but if you work without paying taxes, you might actually draw attention to yourself.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

You must think I’m really an idiot to believe they are breaking no laws to come over here undocumented and not even trying to apply for citizenship.

No, you are simply mistaken. You seem to think that all that is entailed is sending in some forms with some fees.

 

[wabrams]

Kendy:

I became a legal resident after living in the U.S. illegal for 10 years. I didn’t stay in an unsafe situation for 10 years until the U.S. accepted my application. I will agree with you on one think the system does provide perverse incentives. If we could have just applied we would have just come here, but instead, they provided amnesty for a bunch of Haitians who had been here illegal in one swoop, rather than accepting more applications every year.

Even if you don’t care much for America, the benefits of becoming a citizens are huge.

I don’t understand why that makes you an idiot. But I am trying to explain what it’s like to be the other side of the issue and I am not sure you are fully aware of that perspective.

I also don’t understand why you think that some of them wouldn’t. It’s nearly impossible to operate here without some documents.

I never said that they are not break laws to come here. I am saying, they would never consider breaking any other law. These are not hard core criminals. They are the people in our parishes.

You came over here with the intentions of becoming a citizen, making the US your new home, and working for the American dream. But not everyone is like you or your friends that have all immigrated legally or are trying.

How many illegal immigrants, other than Mexicans, do you think we have in this country? Because the 11 million number I keep hearing is estimated to be mainly Mexicans.

You have this idea that if the law was all of the sudden made easier, then all of the sudden illegal immigration from south of the border will stop. Not going to happen. If a short term amnesty, pay your fine type program was offered, I think a good chunk of that 11 mil. will file. But you are still going to have a good many who think “I was doing fine before, I’ll do just as fine by not registering” and the same people who are screaming changing the law is wrong will be screaming when those few are shipped back home.

 

[wabrams]

Kendy:

This was in response to what I said, it’s lot safer to pay taxes than avoid the IRS.

Like I said before, I am not going to go into how it’s done. But the IRS is alot more interested in breaking taxes than INS is in catch illegal aliens. Thus, it is a lot safer to pay taxes than to not. You can do this for years and not get caught, but if you work without paying taxes, you might actually draw attention to yourself.

Kendy

You can easily work and not pay taxes if on paper, except for a W-2, you don’t exist. As for the ones who do pay their taxes and don’t get caught, they are few and far between.

 

[wabrams]

Kendy:

No, you are simply mistaken. You seem to think that all that is entailed is sending in some forms with some fees.

And you seem to think it’s ok to break US laws if they are too tough to comply with.

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

I thought you came here from Haiti?

I did.

wabrams:

I agree to a certain degree. But what has sparked this whole debate is not Haitian immigrants, it’s Mexican immingrants.

I don’t know a lot of Mexican immigrants, but unless Mexicans are just different than everyone else. They would not risk crossing the border, living outside the law, and live in a forign country with a foreign language and culture for no good reasons. One must either assume that the poverty in Mexico is so bad that it outweighs all those negatives, or Mexicans are crazy.

wabrams:

There’s also a great market for organs in this country, but you don’t see any laws makinig it legal to openly sell them.

Do you want there to be such laws?

wabrams:

No one is going to deport or lock-up 11 mil. if they register under the proposed amnesty program.

Good. And no one will deny amnesty if you offer it.

wabrams:

I would be willing to bet the number whop agree greatly outweighs the number who disagree.

I really don’t know.

wabrams:

Great idea, but if they still won’t do that then they need to be arrested and deported.
Not really, but it’s the easiest course of action. And the way you wrote that sounds almost like the rest of the country is backed into a corner.

Well, the country kinda is backed into a corner. It should have increased its intake years ago, but too many politicians and their consitituents where on the “don’t offer refuge to the Mexicans binge.” That just increased the size of the problem year after year. So, now instead of gradually taking legal immgrants, they have to swallow their pride and offer amnesty to 11 million people who broke the law.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

You can easily work and not pay taxes if on paper, except for a W-2, you don’t exist. As for the ones who do pay their taxes and don’t get caught, they are few and far between.

Well, the only way I can tell you is by sharing immigrant secrets so you can continue to believe whatever you want. It’s actually in the illegal immigrants best interest that you believe this.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

And you seem to think it’s ok to break US laws if they are too tough to comply with.

Some moral choices are clear, some are complicated. I think it’s understandable that people would prefer lying to immigration officials than not feeding their children. Like I said, I think anyone who says they wouldn’t either don’t know what it’s like to live in that kind of hopeless poverty and/or political insecurity, or they are lying to themselves.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

wabrams:

You came over here with the intentions of becoming a citizen, making the US your new home, and working for the American dream. But not everyone is like you or your friends that have all immigrated legally or are trying.

How many illegal immigrants, other than Mexicans, do you think we have in this country? Because the 11 million number I keep hearing is estimated to be mainly Mexicans.

You have this idea that if the law was all of the sudden made easier, then all of the sudden illegal immigration from south of the border will stop. Not going to happen. If a short term amnesty, pay your fine type program was offered, I think a good chunk of that 11 mil. will file. But you are still going to have a good many who think “I was doing fine before, I’ll do just as fine by not registering” and the same people who are screaming changing the law is wrong will be screaming when those few are shipped back home.

Listen Wabrams, if amnesty is offered and they reject. I will help deport them myself. But I think you might to actually talk to some of these Mexicans, you might feel differently. They just want jobs and a better life for their children. They are no different than my family.

Kendy

 

[wabrams]

Kendy:

Some moral choices are clear, some are complicated. I think it’s understandable that people would prefer lying to immigration officials than not feeding their children. Like I said, I think anyone who says they wouldn’t either don’t know what it’s like to live in that kind of hopeless poverty and/or political insecurity, or they are lying to themselves.

Kendy

I didn’t say they wouldn’t, but we’re talking about Mexican immigrants, not Haitian.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

You have this idea that if the law was all of the sudden made easier, then all of the sudden illegal immigration from south of the border will stop. Not going to happen. If a short term amnesty, pay your fine type program was offered, I think a good chunk of that 11 mil. will file. But you are still going to have a good many who think “I was doing fine before, I’ll do just as fine by not registering” and the same people who are screaming changing the law is wrong will be screaming when those few are shipped back home.

How ridiculous to think a good number of of the 11-12 million won’t register (which, by the way, would result in $1,100,000,000-$1,2000,000,000 in new revenue at the outset because of the $1,000 fine.). No, they’re not doing fine. They can’t legally drive (and while many do drive without a license, it’s certainly easier to drive with one and be insured), they can’t travel, most can’t have bank accounts, and the like.

The only ones who would refuse to register are those who have criminal records, security issues and/or can’t pass the health exam…and I don’t think anyone wants people with these issues to remain in the US anyway.

 

[Kendy]

LCMS_No_More:

How ridiculous to think a good number of of the 11-12 million won’t register (which, by the way, would result in $1,100,000,000-$1,2000,000,000 in new revenue at the outset because of the $1,000 fine.). No, they’re not doing fine. They can’t legally drive (and while many do drive without a license, it’s certainly easier to drive with one and be insured), they can’t travel, most can’t have bank accounts, and the like.

The only ones who would refuse to register are those who have criminal records, security issues and/or can’t pass the health exam…and I don’t think anyone wants people with these issues to remain in the US anyway.

Absolutely, I have been on both sides of the fence and it’s a lot nicer being a legal resident.

Kendy

 

[Jeffrey]

Why do ppl get turned down? The only reason I can think of is either criminal record… or you have no way to prove that you’d have verifible income etc.

wabrams:

Then if you don’t meet the requirements then don’t come here.

 

[Jeffrey]

Thats only if they paid it.

LCMS_No_More:

How ridiculous to think a good number of of the 11-12 million won’t register (which, by the way, would result in $1,100,000,000-$1,2000,000,000 in new revenue at the outset because of the $1,000 fine.).

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Jeffrey:

Thats only if they paid it.

Well considering that they won’t get the visa if they don’t pay it, it’s rather silly to assume that they won’t considering the massive advantages (come out of the shadows, be able to travel, drive, etc.) that would be reaped by obtaining the visa.

 

[Kendy]

Jeffrey:

Why do ppl get turned down? The only reason I can think of is either criminal record… or you have no way to prove that you’d have verifible income etc.

Occasionally policy makers decide they are going to grant amnesty to groups of people. They usually have general provisions for persecution, but it’s hard to prove persecution. Plus, they don’t take that many of those. And you don’t want to wait around for it especially if you are actually being persecuted. So, the best way is to just wait to they offer a specific provision, like in the late 90’s they offered amnesty to Haitian and Nicaraguans who had lived here for more than five years (not sure about years), and that’s you had to do to qualify. If you don’t hvae that, you don’t qualify. I have a friend from Syreman (sp) for years who can’t apply for because there are not provisions for people from his country seeking economic opportunity. So, if he applies, he’ll just just deported.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

LCMS_No_More:

Well considering that they won’t get the visa if they don’t pay it, it’s rather silly to assume that they won’t considering the massive advantages (come out of the shadows, be able to travel, drive, etc.) that would be reaped by obtaining the visa.

Unless, Mexicans are insane

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

LCMS_No_More:

Well considering that they won’t get the visa if they don’t pay it, it’s rather silly to assume that they won’t considering the massive advantages (come out of the shadows, be able to travel, drive, etc.) that would be reaped by obtaining the visa.

That’s another thing people forget…travelling privileges. During our time here, both my grandfather and aunt die dand my family could not go to the funeral in Haiti. That was especially hard on my mom. Why would anyone choose that? We would have paid thousands of dollars in fees if necessary. We certainly spend that much on lawyers who actually couldn’t do very much.

Kendy