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Kendy
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I just want to add that it was totally uncool for me to brag about my accomplishments. And yes, I absolutely realize I need to better about not getting ugly when I am debating. 
Kendy
Kendy
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Kendy
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Oh Wabrams,
I meant I didn’t realize you were Southern, not sudden.
I meant I didn’t realize you were Southern, not sudden.
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migcerva
Guest
How to you square the notion of “honest” and “illegal” together like that?
One thing that you must be very careful is that legality and morality are not equal. There are things that are immoral and are legally right. There are things that are illegal and are morally wrong. Human law is not always congruent with the divine law. For instance, prostitution in Las Vegas is legal, but that does not make it morally right. Discrimination was legal before, but it was not morally right, a lot of people struggled to change that. Slavery was legal in this country.
The same with illegal immigration, it is illegal but is not intrinsically evil to work without papers.
Even American citizens, sometimes you work without reporting to the IRS, for instance, sometimes when you babysit.
Coming legally is not always that easy, it is something taken by granted, if you don’t have any close relative, like your dad, or brother, or spouse to sponsor you is very difficult to get accepted. You can come here also if you are highly qualified.
The reason that Mexicans come here is because for 70 years Mexico was rule by a corrupt government, that discouraged investment. People were starving, and in dire poverty. That is why they came to the US, to escape poverty. Thus, Crossing illegal is not itself morally wrong. The US law has always been based on natural reasoning, not napoleonic law.
The best measure to judge is the 10 commandements, if they violated the 10 commandments they are wrong, if not then they have not commited anything immoral.
Therefore, this law will finally make the law to reflect the prevailing market conditions
One thing that you must be very careful is that legality and morality are not equal. There are things that are immoral and are legally right. There are things that are illegal and are morally wrong. Human law is not always congruent with the divine law. For instance, prostitution in Las Vegas is legal, but that does not make it morally right. Discrimination was legal before, but it was not morally right, a lot of people struggled to change that. Slavery was legal in this country.
The same with illegal immigration, it is illegal but is not intrinsically evil to work without papers.
Even American citizens, sometimes you work without reporting to the IRS, for instance, sometimes when you babysit.
Coming legally is not always that easy, it is something taken by granted, if you don’t have any close relative, like your dad, or brother, or spouse to sponsor you is very difficult to get accepted. You can come here also if you are highly qualified.
The reason that Mexicans come here is because for 70 years Mexico was rule by a corrupt government, that discouraged investment. People were starving, and in dire poverty. That is why they came to the US, to escape poverty. Thus, Crossing illegal is not itself morally wrong. The US law has always been based on natural reasoning, not napoleonic law.
The best measure to judge is the 10 commandements, if they violated the 10 commandments they are wrong, if not then they have not commited anything immoral.
Therefore, this law will finally make the law to reflect the prevailing market conditions
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Tonks40
Guest
Come on…you know that I was applauding the poster’s testimony on how immigration from Mexico should be done and why it appears to be such a major problem on the southern US border.
I’ve lived in on the southern border with Mexico most of life. My parents are legal immigrants from the Philippines. My ex-husband is a Border Patrol officer. My son goes to a school where 85-90 percent of the student population is Hispanic. I work in a company (a local health-maintance organization) who was founded by Hispanics, and is responsible for paying claims for Medicaid (aka Medi-cal) and the majority of the workforce is Hispanic, educated and English-speaking. I know about the ones who come to the US, work under the table, and truck their earnings back to Mexico. I know about the illegals who take advantage of our public health care system because they do not inquire about status when applying for public benefits. I know about the cars being stolen every single day in this area to be used for smuggling illegals or worse; I hear about the dangers that many of them go through in order to get into this country, and every couple of months, the news stories about those being killed because of the risks these smugglers are taking with their lives. I also know about the many immigrants from Mexico who do their darnests to make sure they have their legal papers in order to work here and are proud of the fact that they do. They in fact look down on those who feel they have to come here illegally.
Fact is: illegal immigration is a burden to our society. People here are fed up with paying massive amounts of taxes in order to support those illegals who come here. We’re tired of seeing social programs and educational programs being cut from the citizens of this country because money is needed to house, feed and take care of illegal immigrants.
From what I read in this thread, your situation is different and I’m sorry you had to go through it. But for the majority of the illegals coming across the border that’s only 5 miles away from my home, it’s not. I don’t know how many times my ex-husband used to come home from the line and tell me, “Oh, we’ve caught this bunch again” or “Look at these forged immigration documents (which he would come home with practically every day).” Face it, the illegal immigrant who comes across the border from the south know what they should do - they really do refuse to do it.
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Semper_Fi_1
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This is ridiculous. We fought the Brits before for our independence, and now we have a Brit on here telling us to give away our country? Anyone see the irony? If a nation has no borders IT IS NO LONGER A FREE NATION BUT A CONQUERED NATION. Don’t tell us how to run our country, please.
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onesimplemind
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Thou shall not covet thy neighbors things…
Mexico has a GDP of 1 trillion. Maybe the Mexican government should levy a tax on the Mexican elites in order to reimburse the U.S. taxpayer paying for illegal immigrant benefits, ESL classes, basic education and all the goodies that we provide. It is the responsibility for Mexico to take care of its poor, why to they get to shove them on us while the Mexican elite wallow in their corruption.
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wabrams
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Didn’t claim they were different, just focused on the because they make up the majority of illegal aliens.
Yeah, it’s called why follow the law when you can break it and the chances of it getting enforced are slimto none.
I’m guessing by social science research you mean sociology? If so, at least half of my studies as an undergrad focused on this. Social theory and social behavoral studies are theories that are always changing. Why? Becuase society is constantly changing. Our society alone is very different than it was 30 years ago.
Good, then I’m sure you realize 2/3 of what you learn in college is just junk and most of the social science you took is hard to apply outside the classroom. Took me a couple of years after I graduated to realize it.I have lived in two countries, four cities. I have worked as a teacher and a reporter, and now, own my own business…not bad life experience for a silly 26 year-old girl
Here’s something totally off topic, but fits into something that totally flies in the face of common sense and business practices: CEO of my company is managing one of the offices here in my state from over 450+ miles away. We’ve have several new guys down there who have never been in the mortgage business (which he knew when he hired them) and he won’t train them, but he’s threatening to fire them by the end of April if they don’t close a loan. Another loan officer down there gets steady business from a realtor that I CEO introduced him to, but our CEO says it doesn’t count, he needs to get business from another one or he’s fired too. Now tell me this: doesn’t this go against who knows how many years of business theory and practice in the financial industry? Wouldn’t you rather train these guys (who have alot of potential) and make them producitive instead of firing an entire branch, loose revenue, then have to hire & acclimate a new staff?Does it make sense to you? Doesn’t to me, flies in the face of reason, but happens all the time. Jus goes to show you what you read in a textbook or some social study doesn’t mean jack squat in the real world, b/c man is a shifty sucker.
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Kendy
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Social science research does not just include sociology. It includes things like economics, which is what I was refering to, and political science, which I what I studied in grad school, and other fields.
And while junk is in the eye of the beholder, it’s unlikely all this research year after year is all junk. Plus, theories don’t necessarily change because societies do. Theories may change if there’s a better alternative, but theories are supposed to explain change and the first step is to see how a social movement fits into a particular theory.
A particular person may not be rational or what you would expect to be rational. Perhaps, we just don’t understand his preferences. However, on the aggragate (i.e 11 million) you will see a regression towards the maen. In other words, it’s extremely unlikely that Mexicans are not utility maximizers. Your only out here is to demonstrate that being a legal immigrant offers a much better incentive structure than being a legal immigrant even when you can. You are welcomed to argue that.
Kendy
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wabrams
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Ahh, one of the many ‘trifecta of uselessness.’ I feel your pain Kendy: all I could do with my degree after graduation was become a cop or go to gradschool, so I chose finance & real estate!
I’ll never forget what the professor of one of my government classes told us once, but first a little background: the guy had double masters (sociology & poli sci) and a phd in poli sci. One day in class he said that after getting xx & xx masters and xx phd and teaching, researching,etc for another 25 years was he learned only one thing: 95% of it is all junk and the rest is common sense. He said the only liberal art degrees you really only have a good shot at a career with are history, education and english; the rest is a waste unless you want to teach, feed off the government for grants, and write pointless articles so you can get your tenure.
It is junk when all it is used for (for the most part, not completely) is to be put in textbooks and taught year after year.
Don’t give me that psyco-analytical mess, come out here in the trenchs for a while and you’ll understand.
:yawn: What time is this class over with?
(sorry, couldn’t resist! reminded me for a second of college!)
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wabrams
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Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) (Public Law 99-603)
policy.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0500501440
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Kendy
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First of all, it’s not psychology. If anything, it’s statistical theory. Second, I am not in a classroom. I own my own business. Does that count as trenches?
Kendy
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Kendy
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Thank You
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Kendy
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Hi,
So, I now remember this act. My parents tried to qualify for it but couldn’t. This shows is that it was passed. It does not show that Mexicans who qualified for it at the time did not accept it. Why do you believe that 2.5 million qualified applicants did not accept this if they indeed qualified.
The issue here is one of preference ordering. Certainly, they prefer to be illegal residents in the United States than live in Mexico, but does that mean that they prefer to illegal rather legal residents of the United States. It seems to me that if one prefers to live in the United States (which we know they do), then that they would prefer to live here legally is an astute assumption unless we can demonstrate otherwise.
Kendy
Kendy
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Jeffrey
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Well… at least one immigrant likes America… but look how she gets treated for it 
https://www.mikeonline.com/images/photos/dallas_protest2006-1.jpg
mikeonline.com/freephotos?action=viewPhotoSet&photoSetID=62
https://www.mikeonline.com/images/photos/dallas_protest2006-1.jpg
mikeonline.com/freephotos?action=viewPhotoSet&photoSetID=62
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wabrams
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Statistical theory? No, what it means is its one of those things in life that defy logic.
What do you do and for how long?Second, I am not in a classroom. I own my own business. Does that count as trenches?
Kendy
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wabrams
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Unless I’ve missed something, laws don’t come with an addendum or afterword to let you know how it went over.
Your guess is as good as mine. But if you spend for than five minutes trying to rationalize the stupidty of people you end up with a nose bleed.
THIS IS NOT A COLLEGE LAB CLASS!!! Not everything in life is logical or reasonable. Not everything in life fits neatly into a study or theory!
Sometimes people shrug their shoulders at some things in life and say “Didn’t need it before, don’t need it now.” If anything I’ve learned from working with the public for a decade now is that this is more or less the working class mentality (I hope I didn’t offend anyone on this forum!!
). Come down from your ivy league school and see how people really are and how peoples mindset don’t fit in with your studies. A majority of the illegal immigrants are working class with a big chunk of them having no more than a 9th grade education. I seriously doubt they sit around debating the finer qualities of citizenship vs staying illegal. If experience and some of my own family background tell me anything, their attitude is most likely “Never needed it before, see no reason to get it now.”
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TarAshly
Guest
I am the working class! I have been a ranch hand, I grew up farming, my husbands family are ranchers, we are in the working class trust me. Being educated doesnt discredit you as a working class person. I work two jobs, and go to school at a community college at night. My husband works two jobs to put me through school. Education is not a discredit, dont attempt to insult a person by calling them educated. I am in the working class and i STILL believe this bill is racist, biased, one sided, close minded and W-R-O-N-G WRONG!
wabrams:
Unless I’ve missed something, laws don’t come with an addendum or afterword to let you know how it went over.
Your guess is as good as mine. But if you spend for than five minutes trying to rationalize the stupidty of people you end up with a nose bleed.
THIS IS NOT A COLLEGE LAB CLASS!!! Not everything in life is logical or reasonable. Not everything in life fits neatly into a study or theory!
Sometimes people shrug their shoulders at some things in life and say “Didn’t need it before, don’t need it now.” If anything I’ve learned from working with the public for a decade now is that this is more or less the working class mentality (I hope I didn’t offend anyone on this forum!!
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rlg94086
Guest
Something tells me some of these people have no interest in becoming citizens…just guessin’.
Well… at least one immigrant likes America… but look how she gets treated for it
https://www.mikeonline.com/images/photos/dallas_protest2006-1.jpg
mikeonline.com/freephotos?action=viewPhotoSet&photoSetID=62
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wabrams
Guest
I grew up with a working class family: my dad spun nylon on the facotry floor at DuPont for 29 yrs. working a ton of overtime so my mom could stay home with us kids most of the time; his father did the same thing for Kendall for over 25 years. 2/3 of the town I grew up in was/is working class. I did automotive work in highschool for part time work and cut lawns. Guess what? went to college and met a lot of people with the same background, families had the same ideas, etc.
I’m not saying a college degree discredits someone or automatically makes them something better. But alot of people get their education and completely forget what the real world is like and it takes a few years in the real world to get grounded again; it hadn’t to me.
To quote you: 'don’t tell me what to do, you’re not y father." COuldn’t resist!
But again, I’m not trying to discredit them.
Yada, yada, yada. Again, you’ve yet to prove this bill is racist (I know, I know b/c most illegals are mexican therefore its racist), it’s not biased or close minded. We all know from your posts you seem to want unregualted, free-for-all immigration.
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Adonis33
Guest
I teach at a local High School - and a walk-out was planned by students (I do not know how may). One of our Student leaders made a PA announcement that a walk-out would send the wrong message - then our princple made an announcement that a meeting would be scheduled to discuss the issue and the legislation - and there would be an opportunity for student voices to be heard.
We’ll see how many students show up to this meeting.
We’ll see how many students show up to this meeting.
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