Thousands protest immigration proposal

  • Thread starter Thread starter bones_IV
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
rlg94086:
Everyone please note that Thekla supports returning all laws to the way it was in the 1920s…or the late 1800s. 😉

How is your argument relevant to today’s issues? This isn’t 1920. Controlled immigration is important to any economy. It wasn’t as important in the earlier years of the US.
rlg94086,
Please don’t say that I support something that I don’t support. It’s misleading and tends to cloud discussion.

My point about the definition of “legal” is that people are saying that most of us decended from “legal” immigrants as a reason to expunge illegal immigrants from this country.

Most of us come from people who would have done anything to flee the starvation and poverty of their former countries. They knew that the conditions on the ships coming over were appalling but they were that desperate. They were encouraged to come here.

I agree that we should now control immigration, but the message that has been sent to the people who are here illegally is a contrary one. Government and businesses have tacitly encouraged them to come here and now scapegoat them with the electorate; it’s dishonest and wrong.

Let the people who are here get to stay legally and then really do something about the border other than pander to the voters.
Thekla
 
40.png
estesbob:
Can you point to me the applicable paragraphs of the catechism of the Catholic Church that states that a country should have open borders? Can you give me example where any social agency has be been punished for assisting an illegal alien even though it is illegal under current law ?
I don’t have a CCC handy, but I looked up the word alien in an online bible to answer your question. It seems that along with the poor, the widows, and the fatherless, God is particularly concerned about the alien. Perhaps, it is because the Lord knows how tempted we are to scapegoat the Mexican worker who picks our tomatoes below living wages. Oddly, something else that the Lord is concerned about— fair wages (but that’s another thread.)

Anyway, here are just a tiny of fractions of how the Lord instructed Israel to treat foreigners. Notice there are no instructions to deny them jobs and social services. In fact, there is one passge, which I didn’t pull which says, allot a special portion of your harvest for the poor, the widows, and the alien.

**"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt. Exodus 22:21

" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.
Leviticus 25:35

He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. Deuteromony 10:18-19

“Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen!” Deuteromony 27:19

The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked. Psalm 149:9

if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm. Jeremiah 7:6

In you they have treated father and mother with contempt; in you they have oppressed the alien and mistreated the fatherless and the widow. Ezekial 22:7

In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD. Ezekiel 47:23**

Now, let’s do another exercise. Would would Jesus do? :hmmm:

Let’s say Jesus was living in United States and a Haitian immigrant comes to Jesus and says to him. Jesus, I had to bring my family here on the raft in order to feed. I would have prefered to stay in Haiti, but after the U.S. insisted on liberalization policies (policies they don’t impose on their own farmers, but that’s for another thread:)), we lost our rice farm, and had to come to the U.S. We had no money and no education so they would never give us a visa. We waited ten years for legal entry, but we could not get it. After ten years, I decided to to take my family away from hunger and political violence. Would you good rabbi, give me a job in your carpentry shop so that I could feed my family. Do you really think Jesus would say, you don’t have the right papers and I reporting you to the authorities so they can torture (I don’t mean literally) you in guantanamo for a while and then send you back to Haiti. That doesn’t sound like the Jesus of the gospels. :nope:

Now, neither the cardinal nor I am necessarily saying that we need to have an open door policy. Although there are some very well-respected economist who believe that it would actually benefit Americans economically… But that’s another thread. However, tightening the screws on people who have come here to work is neither just nor humane. And from what I have read, it seems like the proposed law would like those involved in charitable organizations to report illegal immigrants seeking help. Well, that’s not something I think Jesus would do and it’s not something I would do.

Kendy
 
What?! I used a smiley 😉 = kidding, joke, poking fun at you, not supposed to be taken seriously.

As far as your ‘legal’ argument. If it wasn’t illegal at the time, it was legal. Seems like common sense to me.

As far as your final sentence, that’s what creating the guest worker program is about, so I hope you can put aside your personal distaste and support President Bush in those efforts. I don’t believe in a blanket amnesty, but I would be amenable to creating criteria for some to receive Legal Resident Alien status. The rest should be part of the guest worker program.

God bless,

Robert

P.S. I teed that one up, but you shanked it. 🙂
40.png
Thekla:
rlg94086,
Please don’t say that I support something that I don’t support. It’s misleading and tends to cloud discussion.

My point about the definition of “legal” is that people are saying that most of us decended from “legal” immigrants as a reason to expunge illegal immigrants from this country.

Most of us come from people who would have done anything to flee the starvation and poverty of their former countries. They knew that the conditions on the ships coming over were appalling but they were that desperate. They were encouraged to come here.

I agree that we should now control immigration, but the message that has been sent to the people who are here illegally is a contrary one. Government and businesses have tacitly encouraged them to come here and now scapegoat them with the electorate; it’s dishonest and wrong.

Let the people who are here get to stay legally and then really do something about the border other than pander to the voters.
Thekla
 
You cannot obey men’s laws when they are at odds with God’s laws. So, for example you cannot participate in abortions. You cannot refer someone for an abortion, etc. Neither can you deny justice and charity to the alien. That’s not Kendy’s conscience, that’s God’s law.

Kendy
40.png
rlg94086:
I believe we should follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not the Catechism of Kendy’s good conscience. We are supposed to obey man’s laws and **surpass **them according to 2240. This means that despite Row v Wade (which is not a law by the way…it’s a ruling of the courts), we are not to have abortions.

2241 spells out the rights of political authorities to make immigration subject to conditions, and it mentions the immigrant’s duties.

God bless,

Robert
 
Jesus would say “we need to follow the laws of the land we are in…and support President Bush’s guest worker program!” 😉

Since you brought it up, can you cite the passage in the gospel where Jesus says, “ignore the laws of Caeser”?
40.png
Kendy:
Now, let’s do another exercise. Would would Jesus do? :hmmm:

Now, neither the cardinal nor I am necessarily saying that we need to have an open door policy. Although there are some very well-respected economist who believe that it would actually benefit Americans economically… But that’s another thread. However, tightening the screws on people who have come here to work is neither just nor humane. And from what I have read, it seems like the proposed law would like those involved in charitable organizations to report illegal immigrants seeking help. Well, that’s not something I think Jesus would do and it’s not something I would do.

Kendy
 
Expelling illegal aliens is not against God’s law. It is the right of governments, as I cited from the Catechism. In regards to abortion, there is no law that says you have to have an abortion…
40.png
Kendy:
You cannot obey men’s laws when they are at odds with God’s laws. So, for example you cannot participate in abortions. You cannot refer someone for an abortion, etc. Neither can you deny justice and charity to the alien. That’s not Kendy’s conscience, that’s God’s law.

Kendy
 
40.png
Thekla:
I agree that we should now control immigration, but the message that has been sent to the people who are here illegally is a contrary one. Government and businesses have tacitly encouraged them to come here and now scapegoat them with the electorate; it’s dishonest and wrong.
And thank you for pointing that out. We depend so much on illegal immigrant labor. A business man whose name I cannot remember right now recently said that if all the illegal immigrants went home tomorrow, it would send shock waves through our economy. But of course, what better to distract people from other more important failed public policies than to pick our janitors, our tomato pickers, our nannies, etc.

Kendy
 
40.png
rlg94086:
Expelling illegal aliens is not against God’s law. It is the right of governments, as I cited from the Catechism. In regards to abortion, there is no law that says you have to have an abortion…
No, but if there were a law that says you had to give out the abortion pill, you would have no choice but to disobey that law.

Kendy
 
40.png
Kendy:
And thank you for pointing that out. We depend so much on illegal immigrant labor. A business man whose name I cannot remember right now recently said that if all the illegal immigrants went home tomorrow, it would send shock waves through our economy.
But of course, what better to distract people from other more important failed public policies than to pick our janitors, our tomato pickers, our nannies, etc.

Kendy
If we hadn’t had 40 million abortions the last 30 years we’d not need these people to work at all.

Your notion this issue has come up as a “distraction” is uncharitible from where I sit as you’ve offered zero evidence nor have you specified which public polices have failed.
 
40.png
Kendy:
No, but if there were a law that says you had to give out the abortion pill, you would have no choice but to disobey that law.

Kendy
But there is no such law. That’s why pharmacists who have chosen not to distribute contraception or abortion pills are being sued in court, not arrested.
 
40.png
Geldain:
No one is denying illegal aliens either.
Criminalizing giving charitable assistance (i.e., food and clothing) to undocumented IS a violation of God’s law. The author of this bill should be very concerned about his eternal destiny.
 
40.png
rlg94086:
Jesus would say “we need to follow the laws of the land we are in…and support President Bush’s guest worker program!” 😉

Since you brought it up, can you cite the passage in the gospel where Jesus says, “ignore the laws of Caeser”?
Jesus also never said a word about homosexuality and a bunch of other things. Generally, we should follow the law. However, we cannot follow the law when they are at odds with justice.

For example, in the 19th century, many people provided aid to run away slaves, particularly quakers, although it was against the law. Now, I am dying to know whether you think the Christian thing to do would have been to help run-away slaves or report them.

Kendy
 
40.png
LCMS_No_More:
Criminalizing giving charitable assistance (i.e., food and clothing) to undocumented IS a violation of God’s law. The author of this bill should be very concerned about his eternal destiny.
👍
 
40.png
rlg94086:
But there is no such law. That’s why pharmacists who have chosen not to distribute contraception or abortion pills are being sued in court, not arrested.
The question is hypothetical. I am trying to establish that we cannot follow the law if it indeed not immoral. Perhaps, if we could agree on that, then we can discuss the whether this particular law is immoral.

Kendy
 
Nope. That analogy is much, much better.

Now, back to the thread at hand. I believe it is just to enforce laws which the Catechism says governments have the right to put in place (i.e. immigration laws). I don’t believe anyone should be arrested for helping them with charity (food, clothing, etc.), but I do support arresting people for helping them break the law.
40.png
Kendy:
Jesus also never said a word about homosexuality and a bunch of other things. Generally, we should follow the law. However, we cannot follow the law when they are at odds with justice.

For example, in the 19th century, many people provided aid to run away slaves, particularly quakers, although it was against the law. Now, I am dying to know whether you think the Christian thing to do would have been to help run-away slaves or report them.

Kendy
 
Yes, I agree with you that we can not follow a law if it is indeed immoral. I couldn’t read your link by Roger Cardinal Mahoney, but my understanding is that he doesn’t just think we should help illegal immigrants with food, clothing, etc., but we should help them evade authorities. Is that correct?
40.png
Kendy:
The question is hypothetical. I am trying to establish that we cannot follow the law if it indeed not immoral. Perhaps, if we could agree on that, then we can discuss the whether this particular law is immoral.

Kendy
 
40.png
Geldain:
If we hadn’t had 40 million abortions the last 30 years we’d not need these people to work at all.

Your notion this issue has come up as a “distraction” is uncharitible from where I sit as you’ve offered zero evidence nor have you specified which public polices have failed.
I don’t really want to get into what I think are Bush’s failed policies so I have no intention of providing any evidence since that would just take us off topic.

Plus, the last thing I want to is start a anti-bush discussion. I get all the spankings I can take on this forum 😛 .

And yes, I am pretty good at dishing it out as well so I am complaining :).

Kendy
 
Kendy,

I hope, as I mentioned to Thekla, that you can put aside your feelings about President Bush and support his guest worker program. It is the best way to meet the needs of immigration control, need for labor and the dignity of those who are looking for work in the US to support their families.

God bless,
Robert
40.png
Kendy:
I don’t really want to get into what I think are Bush’s failed policies so I have no intention of providing any evidence since that would just take us off topic.

Plus, the last thing I want to is start a anti-bush discussion. I get all the spankings I can take on this forum 😛 .

And yes, I am pretty good at dishing it out as well so I am complaining :).

Kendy
 
40.png
rlg94086:
Nope. That analogy is much, much better.

Now, back to the thread at hand. I believe it is just to enforce laws which the Catechism says governments have the right to put in place (i.e. immigration laws). I don’t believe anyone should be arrested for helping them with charity (food, clothing, etc.), but I do support arresting people for helping them break the law.
Helping them break which law? Being here illegal. If I offer them food and shelter I am helping them to do that. If I rent my house to an illegal alien, I am helping them break the law, if I offer them work, I am DEFINITELY helping them break the law. If I offer them educational services, I am helping them stay here illegal, which is helping them break the law. The only way to not help them break the law is offer them no assistance. And if the law says you are to turn them in, then if you don’t, you are also helping them break the law.

Kendy
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top