Thousands protest Wisconsin anti-union bill

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gamewell45 said:
As I mentioned earlier, I’d tend to give them the benefit of the doubt irrespective of what one person says. Unless your the individual person, you have no idea of whether or not they are truly ill physically or emotionally unable to work.
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I’ve got a bag full of magic beans … and for you a 10 … no 20% discount…

LOL!!!
 
pnewton said:
Difficult times call for difficult choices. However,…

This is a problem? This is generous compared to what most get, and this is a cut???

I also am shocked to see a teacher sick-out forcing the cancelaltion of school. I guess there really are some that are in it just for the money.
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Actually, the unions have offered to meet and confer in order to give concessions. They were told NO by the Republicans.

It’s about busting the union, not saving money.
 
oldcelt said:
Thank you,

John
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You’re most welcome. :tiphat:

Unfortunately, you’ll mostly find that the people around here are opposed to the rights of working people to organize themselves in common cause when it comes to their workplace. It’s also sad that we find people who believe that civil servants should be treated as third class citizens, if even citizens, and have no right to petition their own government when it comes to their working conditions, benefits and wages. Instead, we’re told, civil servants should be considered a form of chattel subject to the whim of the governor, especially and particularly if the Governor is a Republican (who will invariably treat his employees with contempt which is mandated if he is to be considered a good Republican).

Truly sad that Christians can think like this, but there you are.
 
Truly sad that Christians can think like this, but there you are.
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Indeed, I’d probably say something about second-generation wealth, but I don’t truly know them.

John
 
oldcelt said:
Indeed, I’d probably say something about second-generation wealth, but I don’t truly know them.

John
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Actually I’m one of the first generations in my family to not have had to live in poverty.

The liberal states and all their unions and great financial wealth can keep it.

My father and his 7 other brothers and sisters were extremely poor growing up as children and I attribute everything we have to his hard work and conservative personality. I think 3 or 4 of them have college educations.

People want to attribute the fall of society on something, look at the lack of human spirit. Someone mentioned that civilization would come to an end if all the teachers quit the public school system. Give me a break.

I’ve taken what he has taught me and applied it to my own life, as a young man in my early twenties I didn’t, but now I do.

Two paid off cars, a brand new house, an IRA and stocks, a stay at home wife 3 kids and I bet I make less than the average teacher. All I want is a true livable wage, I’ll work till I fall over if I have to it would be a privilege. Most importantly I don’t need to keep up with the Jones.
 
Budget Battle: Archbishop Listecki Weighs In
Story Created: Feb 16, 2011
Story Updated: Feb 17, 2011

MADISON, Wis. (AP) – Archbishop Jerome Listecki of the Wisconsin Catholic Conference is calling on state lawmakers to carefully consider the implications of Gov. Scott Walker’s proposal to remove collective bargaining rights for public workers.
Listecki said in a statement Wednesday that lawmakers should evaluate how Walker’s proposal affects the common good. He also calls on lawmakers, workers, labor unions and others to move beyond divisive words and work together so the state can recover from the recession.
Listecki’s comments come on the second day of massive protests in Madison over the governor’s plan that the Republican-controlled Legislature could vote on passing as soon as Thursday.
More than 13,000 people protested on Tuesday and the state estimated another 10,000 rallied on Wednesday.
 
patrick127 said:
The unions that represent public employees spend union dues/money to promote the candidacy of politicians that will ultimately be the very people that will negotiate future contracts. “Management” becomes de facto members of these unions themselves because they owe their jobs to the unions. The politicians/management for years have gladly repaid union-backed campaign contributions with generous increases in salary and benefits for the members of these unions.

A government employee traditionally receives a smaller salary today for benefits down the road…a pension and healthcare for life. We as citizens are generally ok with the traditional set-up. The problem has become that these teachers, in addition, a large portion of government employees now receive above an average salary in addition to their future pensions/healthcare. When you consider that pensions are based of the salary that the retiree earned during his working life costs get compounded exponentially down the road and it becomes an unsustainable burden to the state.

The good work done by the unions on behalf of the membership is beginning to backfire. They have created a situation that is putting many states on the verge of bankruptcy. It is one thing when a private company faces these challenges. Ask GM, their main problem is that for every car they sell they have a built in cost of thousands of dollars in each car for past employees/retirees that makes them unable to compete in the marketplace against other companies that manage their cost better. If GM goes bankrupt, their retirees risk losing their pensions…that was until the Government bailout.

Government employees/retirees don’t face this because they can get the very people they helped elect to raise taxes on the general population.

There is a new management and they have to face the fact that we as a state and a nation cannot continue down this path. Something needs to change. I don’t see these teachers being faced with a reduction in salary; I see the elected leaders asking the teachers to help pay for the current and future benefits that they will receive. Doesn’t sound like a bad deal? We the people are taxed enough already and it appears that the gravy train is ending.
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These “elected” officials are not “asking” anything. They stuck a last minute “union busting” piece of language onto the budget bill that won’t in fact save a dime. It is just their agenda that was in place when they didn’t have a shortfall yet. Wisconsin voted to give over 100 million in tax cuts to businesses that has now caused the shortfall. Refusing to even talk with the unions to ask if they would renegotiate pay and benefits to help with the budget since the GOP/Tea Partiers came into power there is the real reason people felt angry enough to protest. No one likes to see their hard won rights trampled by people in power who just gave away huge “perks” in the form of tax breaks to businesses which can afford to do without them far better than public sector employees. However, those businesses have donor ties to politicians in the GOP with more money to spend than any union relying on dues from public employees. Managers are not “de facto” union members, nor do they owe their jobs to union member who in fact are normally using the union to protect themselves from management. Who do think are whipping the regular employees to work faster, harder and longer hours for the same or less money due so that they can get their bonuses?

This is not simply about teachers and having worked in public service most of my adult life I can tell you we are NOT making more than our private sector peers in any significant numbers. It is a ridiculous lie that is supported by pointing at a tiny number of abusive situations where someone managed to get a high salary. Federal employees are already taking a 2 year pay freeze even though we were still behind our private sector peers. I could leave my job and make twice as much in private practice easily. I pay more for health care than I did when I worked in state government and the benefits are worse. I am forced to consider Social Security part of my retirement “package” because the old civil service pension system has been gone for more than 15 years. However, my real retirement will be from my own investments and basically working until I die at my desk or can’t get there any longer.

Another special fact that people don’t generally know is that when furloughs and “government shutdowns” come the public sector employees can be forced to work without being paid if the government bigwigs deem them essential. When in law enforcement I had to do it for the state even as I was supposed to find rent, utilities, car payment and food money out of savings of thin air for more than a month. The last time the federal government furloughed in 1995 over the budget, they didn’t want the public to suffer (and possibly vote them out of office) so they made Social Security employees keep working along with many 1000s of others who really weren’t “essential” to life or safety. They were turned into slave labor getting no pay to save the politicians from a bunch of voters who would have been angry (and possibly protesting with their votes) over not getting services that there was no money to fund. This forced labor was WITH some protection by the unions to make sure things were documented and people got the money owed later.

We don’t have to imagine the horrors that can happen when a few people hold all of the power in business or government. History can provide us with the examples that led to the formation of the labor movement in the USA, Solidarity in Poland. . .
 
The governor and the union leaders should call each others’ bluff. Today is Sunday. Agree to meet Monday and agree to to the budget cuts. If this is indeed about money or the lack thereof, then collective bargaining should not be in the agreement. The cuts should be in it. Whichever side refuses to show up will then have tipped their hand about the real issue: absolute power to force the other side to become a quasi-slave (be it public workers and cronyism/abuse or a government enslaved to unreasonable worker demands).

All other arguments are a sideshow. The fact that the governor won’t call this meeting is telling. It isn’t really about the budget, so he should quit being deceptive. If the unions are lying about accepting the cuts, a meeting would instantly reveal their dishonesty too.

The balance between unions and employers has always been ugly. If one side begins to dominate, corruption and evil spread like wildfire (bribes, using bats on workers, etc). Unions and their progressive friends have had the upper hand for a while, yet this is one of those cases where we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. Unions definitely have their place, in and out of government, but they must be tempered just as they temper employers. Destroying their ability to bargain is not necessary when budget constraints are required. The meeting I proposed would work.
 
Nec5 said:
The governor and the union leaders should call each others’ bluff. Today is Sunday. Agree to meet Monday and agree to to the budget cuts. If this is indeed about money or the lack thereof, then collective bargaining should not be in the agreement. The cuts should be in it. Whichever side refuses to show up will then have tipped their hand about the real issue: absolute power to force the other side to become a quasi-slave (be it public workers and cronyism/abuse or a government enslaved to unreasonable worker demands).

All other arguments are a sideshow. The fact that the governor won’t call this meeting is telling. It isn’t really about the budget, so he should quit being deceptive. If the unions are lying about accepting the cuts, a meeting would instantly reveal their dishonesty too.

The balance between unions and employers has always been ugly. If one side begins to dominate, corruption and evil spread like wildfire (bribes, using bats on workers, etc). Unions and their progressive friends have had the upper hand for a while, yet this is one of those cases where we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. Unions definitely have their place, in and out of government, but they must be tempered just as they temper employers. Destroying their ability to bargain is not necessary when budget constraints are required. The meeting I proposed would work.
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I support this idea. 👍
 
Perhaps the most upsetting aspect of the whole story is something that goes unreported. The vast majority of these “teachers” do not deserve a job, let alone compensation that bilks the Wisconsin taxpayers of $100,000 annually. The public schools are an utter disaster nation wide. I inherit the mess every year, and instead of teaching a college course in history (as I am officially paid to do), I find myself trying to help my students write a complete sentence. Yes that is right, I am forced to spend my time teaching kids things I learned in grade school. I am contemplating giving up, after all a Ph.D can only expect to earn about $50,000 - $60,000 in most of the country - and I am tired of having to do other peoples jobs for them.
 
gamewell45 said:
As I mentioned earlier, I’d tend to give them the benefit of the doubt irrespective of what one person says. Unless your the individual person, you have no idea of whether or not they are truly ill physically or emotionally unable to work.
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Maybe some who share your point of view could testify in front of Congress. They would be used to testimony of that sort.

youtube.com/watch?v=9JkcHW_w114
 
Nec5 said:
All other arguments are a sideshow. The fact that the governor won’t call this meeting is telling. It isn’t really about the budget, so he should quit being deceptive. If the unions are lying about accepting the cuts, a meeting would instantly reveal their dishonesty too.
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I am far from pro-union and support them only as far as the Church teaches, but reading the news as this story unfolds, I am begining to suspect that the Republicans in Wisconsin are dealing duplicity. We are having a similar issue in Texas with budget cuts. I notice that in both cases it seems like education is becoming the target and focus of cuts. This does not make sense, as that is the one area that most voters would not want cut. I am starting to think this is a publicity ploy to gain support for a tax increase or some other political agenda.

Maybe I just do not have the faith in politicians like I used to.
 
bbarrick8383 said:
Well, they are sick I’m not sure it’s something a medical professional would diagnose. Maybe a mental health professional. Must be contagious, hope they stay away from here.
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Good point. Although I think it IS contagious. The worst part is that the patient seems to enjoy the disease.
 
a_priori said:
Unless a corresponding component of that Church doctrine is the ability to compel the Angels to descend with bags of cash to pay the bills, I think a little further exegesis is in order.
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Thus it becomes clear that liberals aren’t the only cafeteria Catholics.
 
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