tongues

[Joysong]

Gnome,

I just had another thought in reference to what you said here:

If the prayer is an unknown language, there’s no way to guarantee that it’s about praising God, or about dialogue w/ other spirits…

Your safety net would be in your will, would it not? If your will is focused on God, and your heart and spirit long to glorify Him, how could it be that your understanding (which is unfruitful), would be so disjointed as to utter strange words that curse Him? Two opposed spirits do not co-mingle in prayer from all I have been able to read and understand. Jesus said a divided house will not stand, so how could a division exist in our mental faculties which would allow the person to simultaneously praise God with his will, and utter blasphemies from his understanding? Someone has previously spread chaff among the wheat regarding this, I’m afraid!

If you read about my novena problem last week, what was pleasing to God, and is always pleasing to Him, is our conscious act of the will. Assuming there could possibly be a divided house in our mind, and unseemly words come forth, the Holy Spirit would look at what our will prays and not hold the person accountable, IMO.

I pray this will ease your discomfort.

With God’s peace and joy,
Carole

 

[Binary_Paul]

Wow, Things have gotten a little testy over the weekend.

I would suggest that those who have a problem with the charisms of the Holy Spirit, and like to pick one or two verses in an attempt to *misdirect *the meaning of those scriptures, read not only the whole of that section of the letter, but also the footnotes.

Chapters 11,12,13, and 14 of Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthians deal with problems in liturgical assemblies. All of the verses contained in this section must be read in this context. Chapter 13 in particular should be noted because we obviously have dropped the ball somewhat in regards to respectful and humble speech. If I had the opportunity to sit down personally with some of you it would be instructive to read this chapter together. I say this only to encourage you to do so.

The footnote for 1 Corinthians 14: 20-22 (New American Bible) is instructive to the debate at hand. “The Corinthian’s pride themselves on tongues as a sign of God’s favor, a means of direct communication with him. (2:28) To challenge them to a more mature appraisal, Paul draws from scripture a less flattering explanation of what speaking in tongues may signify…”

This does not in any way demean the use of tongues in personal praise or prayer. Paul’s letter was to correct an ignorant and immature church, which seemed to be caught up in the gift of tongues to a degree that was stunting their growth. In fact, the Corinthian’s were having many problems including some doubting the resurrection of Jesus.

(The criticism of the overemphasis on the gift of tongues can truthfully by leveled at some charismatic prayer groups today. I have noticed in conversations with many charasmatic’s that many don’t avail themselves of the sacrament of reconciliation on a regular basis, nor know basic Catholic doctrine.) The main point again is to recognize that Paul is speaking in regards to the practice of the liturgy for the sake of order and for the building of the church. If the Corinthians had persisted in just focusing on gathering to praise God with tongues then they would not mature as Christians and work to spread the Gospel effectively.

continued…

 

[Binary_Paul]

I myself have no objection to the idea of gathering together with my Christian brothers and sisters to praise God. After all that is how we will spend eternity. As long as we also gather for Mass and for study, which we do, then this is a good thing, because it builds faith, and serves the body of Christ in the intercessory prayer that usually goes on in these prayer meetings. Keep in mind that these are not ‘liturgical’ meetings as such. If we examine the amount of time that we know Jesus spent in prayer then we must also recognize that it should also occupy a great amount of our own time. I would make the case that with the “2 or 3 gathered in my name” scripture, we should spend more time in corporate and intercessory prayer as a church. It is not enough to go to daily Mass and then live our ordinary lives. I know that statement will give some of you a start, but I mean it as a preface for a question. What is the Church militant, and how does it function? I think this is a question more Catholics should ask of themselves. When we have a nation where many Catholics don’t attend Mass regularly and many vote for pro-abortion candidates it is easy to see the need for evangelism within our own church. We haven’t even talked about our separated brothers and sisters in the plethora of protestant churches, nor those who don’t know God. We could spend a lot more time in prayer.

If the Holy Spirit was sent by Jesus to counsel us after he ascended into heaven, then I want Him and all His gifts *as He chooses * to put in my life for His purposes. This includes any charisms He deems necessary for the work of building His church.

Jude 1:19-20 “These are the ones who cause divisions; they live on the natural plane, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the holy spirit.”

I for one will take any help the Holy Spirit chooses to send me.

1 Corinthians 14:39 “Brothers, strive eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues, 40: but everything must be done properly and in order.”

This last verse in Paul’s correction on the abuses of the liturgy seems to be an attempt on his part to temper his criticism of the use of tongues by the Corinthians.

 

[gnome]

Joysong:

Gnome,

You do well to stay with the way God leads you to pray, fully conscious of all you speak to Him, with all of your mind attentive to His presence. That cannot do any harm.

What causes concern is the offense we give to God when any of us judges the way He may lead another to pray. It is better that we bow out of things we don’t understand lest we risk becoming a critical spirit, thinking we need to be a “savior” to any who follow a different road. It is good to trust that God will always take care of His own.

Carole,
I learned that discernment is not judging, and judging an action is not judging the person. He taught all how to pray, the same Our Father, and about praying like a tax collector in the temple, who stood at a distance, and he would not even look up to
heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

 

[gnome]

Joysong:

Your safety net would be in your will, would it not? If your will is focused on God, and your heart and spirit long to glorify Him, how could it be that your understanding (which is unfruitful), would be so disjointed as to utter strange words that curse Him? Two opposed spirits do not co-mingle in prayer from all I have been able to read and understand. Jesus said a divided house will not stand, so how could a division exist in our mental faculties which would allow the person to simultaneously praise God with his will, and utter blasphemies from his understanding? Someone has previously spread chaff among the wheat regarding this, I’m afraid!

Carole,
thanks for sharing and for your prayer too.
I once asked a priest, who is leader in many charismatic prayer groups, about experiencing the angel of the light, how to discern what spirit… He said by testing it, and his simple test is obedience. In one session, there were several people who proclaimed they’re witnessing Christ on the cross at Calvary.
He decided to order them to stop but they continue on with it…
So he knew it was not the Holy Spirit, even though these people
believe it wholeheartedly.

I’m just sharing what I know and my understanding needs lots more prayer. I’m not saying this is happening in other CR groups. But one thing for sure, it happened even when a priest is there, imagine most of CR groups are lead by lay faithfuls.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Gnome,

I learned that discernment is not judging, and judging an action is not judging the person.

I once asked a priest, who is leader in many charismatic prayer groups, about experiencing the angel of the light, how to discern what spirit… He said by testing it, and his simple test is obedience. In one session, there were several people who proclaimed they’re witnessing Christ on the cross at Calvary. He decided to order them to stop but they continue on with it…So he knew it was not the Holy Spirit, even though these people believe it wholeheartedly.

I am so glad you like tests, and I like the one you mentioned about obedience. I have a test to share from St. Teresa of Avila, which allows any of us who habitually discern other‘s actions, to know whether our heart is right before God. She wrote that when we see someone commit a fault, we should be as sorry about it as if it were our own.

Maybe we can see her meaning when we apply it to the incident where the crowd was anxious to stone the woman caught in adultery. Jesus invited the one who had no sin to cast the first stone. Amazingly, they all left quietly, one by one. Might we see that their hearts were secretly gloating, perhaps eagerly awaiting Jesus’ permission to execute the proper levitical judgment on her?

It is important to note that this woman was guilty of true sin - adultery! They had accurately “discerned her actions.” If we apply the *grave sin *principle to persons in the CCR, my goodness, is not obeying the priest a real sign of grave sinfulness, worthy of one’s righteous indignation and/or condemnation? Worthy of bringing it to the attention of others so they may join in verbally stoning them? I think if anyone of us honestly considered St. Teresa’s test, we might do as the crowd in the gospel, and just quietly walk away, leaving the judgment and mercy of others up to God.

I’m just sharing what I know and my understanding needs lots more prayer. I’m not saying this is happening in other CR groups. But one thing for sure, it happened even when a priest is there, imagine “most” of CR groups are led by lay faithfuls.

Yes, just imagine — but not judge “most” CR groups who are led by lay faithful.

In Christ’s peace,
Carole

 

[tru_dvotion]

Being silent when it is our duty to speak out is a sin. Everyone “is bound to give the admonition when the sin, committed though it be from ignorance, is hurtful to the offender or a third party or is the occasion of scandal.” (St. Augustine)

“The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.” (St. Thomas)

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart, but reprove him openly, lest thou incur sin through him” (Leviticus 19:17).

“He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:20).

Jesus - “If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him” (Luke 17:3).

“Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear” (1 Timothy 5:20).

“Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine” (2 Timothy 4:2).

“Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Galatians 6:1).

It is a grace from God to be corrected, a grace that should be thankfully and humbly accepted the moment it is offered to us. “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels” (Proverbs 12:15).

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

“The sentence ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged’ is usually quoted out of context. Christ did not enjoin us to refrain from ever judging. What he went on to say in the next four verses is that we should judge ourselves before we judge others–not that we shouldn’t judge at all.

“I came not to send peace, but the sword” (Matt. 10:34), we should be warriors of Christ. The holy Church on earth is called ecclesia militaris (“the Church militant”). We cannot at the same time hunger and thirst after justice—an inherent basic attitude of the true Christian—and be at universal peace with the doers of evil and the unjust.

St. John goes so far as to advise the faithful against greeting heretics (2 John 10-1)

If a person is doing wrong, and you tell him in a kind manner, a charitable manner, that they are committing a sin, and that they will lose their soul and go to purgatory, or even hell, that is not judging. You are helping and loving your neighbor.

The Ten Commandments have been replaced with what Alan Wolfe refers to as America’s Eleventh Commandment: Thou shalt not judge.

 

[Binary_Paul]

I agree whole heartedly with the idea of submission to and inclusion of a priest in any charismatic group. This, I believe is of critical importance for any lay group to protect it from error and to keep it focused on the mission of the Church to evangelize the world. When there isn’t a priest involved I believe it should be the single most important prayer of these groups to petition the Holy Spirit to provide them with a holy and spiritual priest.

There has simply been too much abuse and misdirection in prayer groups that are not under a priests authority. Not every priest in charismatic prayer groups has been orthodox and in submission to Rome. Sometimes a charismatic priest is moved out of a parish for another assignment. Our bishop asked our spirit filled priest to move to another parish because that parish was in serious trouble and our bishop felt that this priest was the best man for the job. We all sorrowed at his leaving, and we have been praying for his replacement, and for other area priests for their deeper conversion and openness to the Holy Spirit. These prayers are being answered after 4 years of diligent prayer. My own pastor, a product of the 70’s, has been saying as of late, that he is becoming more and more aware of how poor his formation was in seminary. He has been trying to become a better and more orthodox priest. Praise God!!!!

If the charismatic lay diligently support Eucharistic adoration, apologetics, confession, and are faithful in prayer, then God will change the hearts of their pastors.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.” (St. Thomas)
How true, Of course this has to be done in love. None of us like to be corrected when we are in error, but the fact is if we do not have a teachable spirit we will never learn the truth.

 

[Joysong]

Spoken Word:

The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.” (St. Thomas)
How true, Of course this has to be done in love. None of us like to be corrected when we are in error, but the fact is if we do not have a teachable spirit we will never learn the truth.

Indeed it is a kindness, and I am not advocating that anyone relinquish this important work of mercy, for silence in the presence of evil is an evil in itself. What bothers me is, who has the duty to determine that one has committed sin and is in error? It is usually the Church who bears responsibility for guiding the faithful into truth, and those Shepherds who are entrusted with this filial duty when a new movement is drawing many faithful into its fold.

Some pridefully take this discernment upon themselves, independent of the Church universal. They attempt to bring the error to an end, not in love as you wrote above, but in a brash spirit that is anything but the meekness the Lord would have us embrace as we try to bring another into His Truth.

I suspect if any such person would listen to God first, he might hear, “Who, O man, has appointed thee to discern the evil in another’s heart, and set about to deliver them?”

You also bring up a good point about having a teachable spirit. We both realize that many errors prevail within the Church. However, I can’t think of a single instance where the attitude of the elder son is conducive to welcoming or changing the heart of the prodigal.

As we are discussing the CCR here, I have a very hard time believing that anyone can say with absolute certainty that these charismatic Christians are committing “grave” sins, walking in absolute error, and must be delivered by those wise ones who are sent by God to admonish them. It is absolutely distressing to see this wherever it is manifested, especially since the Church has given documented approval in this matter.

:twocents: Carole

 

[Joysong]

Hello, Paul,

There has simply been too much abuse and misdirection in prayer groups that are not under a priests authority. Not every priest in charismatic prayer groups has been orthodox and in submission to Rome.

.

I agree with you that the ideal is to have a priest, not only in these gatherings of charismatics, but in every single gathering of the faithful, for whatever reason – bible study, RCIA, preparation for reception of the sacraments, pre-cana – to name a few.

Maybe it would work if we could split the priest into nine parts and send him wherever he is needed. That is just not realistic, and you don’t have to go very far to find that priests are stretched so thin as to make the ministry of the laity extremely important. I’m sure you know of parishes in the south where they have no priest whatsoever for Mass, and a nun or lay person gives a para-liturgy and distributes Holy Communion.

With the vocations shortage, it will become more and more incumbent upon Catholic lay persons who are well-educated, and highly virtuous to assist in the work of the Church. If a priest is not available, it would be a wrong perception if one believes the entire group is going to fall into the hands of evil because a lay person is officiating…

May I ask whether it is better to have NO meetings, bible study, pre-cana, para-liturgies, etc., in the name of keeping all from evil? I think all would agree that would be very foolish. It seems critically important to entrust the work, whatever it is, to Jesus and His Spirit, who has promised that no one would snatch His sheep from His hands.

 

[Joysong]

Tru,

I viewed your many scripture references, and they specifically refer to correcting a sinner. If you are speaking in general, I agree with much of what you wrote.

On the other hand, if you are speaking of charismatics, which is the trend of this thread, I need to ask who has determined these people are guilty of grave sin?

In case it is the latter, posting as you have done, would lead the reader to believe you have arrived at a predetermined evaluation and conclusion of wrong-doing and error. ???

Unless a person has the authority of the Church to condemn it, wouldn’t it be better to remain silent and present objections privately to those in authority who have the power to listen and advise? Ultimately, the proclamation must come from the hierarchy in order for the faithful to believe they may be wrong.

Carole

 

[tru_dvotion]

Tru,

I viewed your many scripture references, and they specifically refer to correcting a sinner

. If you are speaking in general, I agree with much of what you wrote.

On the other hand, if you are speaking of charismatics, which is the trend of this thread, I need to ask who has determined these people are guilty of grave sin?

No Carole, I was quoting in the same general terms you were quoting. You brought up the adulterous woman as an example. Perhaps it was not the most appropriate passage for this thread. There is a false perception about judging and correcting. That was my point. In the case of the adulterous woman, she repented; Jesus ministered to her; forgave her and told her not to sin again. He did rebuke her would be executioners. But he never said adultery was not to be judged as a sin. My response was entirely to your post. When we quote scriptures, we have to be very clear and not to contradict other passages. The humanist approach is not to judge ever: that was the sense I got from your post. The correct Catholic approach should always be judging the act, but not the individual. If I misunderstood, I am sorry, but if I misunderstood, I might not be the only one. People generally hear what they wish to hear either in agreement or disagreement.

 

[Joysong]

Hello, Tru,

I feel so much better knowing we’re on the same page. It really is hard to be clear sometimes and avoid misunderstandings.

You are absolutely correct that adultery is a sin. You wrote, “The correct Catholic approach should always be judging the act, but not the individual.” I’m with you on this. Somehow, I meant to describe the attitude in the hearts of those who judged her act and brought her to Jesus. It was not passing the test of St. Teresa, who said “we should be as sorry about another’s fault as though it were our own.” The woman’s “executioners” did not have the heart of mercy, realizing their own sinfulness.

We may, and should correct others, but only in the presence of grave evil or error, IMO, such as was present in her case (adultery). To be on the alert to find the speck in others’ eyes and maintain an air of harshness, forgetting one’s own proclivity to error and/or evil, is not pleasing to God, and can only foster disunity and fractions.

As you know, I am not a charismatic, so I have no vested interest in defending the movement. So, I guess the mercy in my corrections is directed toward those who may be offending the Lord because of a hostile attitude towards these brothers and sisters. Until charismatics are proven to be sinfully in error, and given a communication to that effect from a Shepherd of the Church, I do not see what good can come by attempting it oneself.

If the Lord does occasionally prompt one of us to give admonition, His Spirit would also lead the proper timing, words, attitude, examples, etc. Most of the time, our words alone are just not effective. You and I have shared mutual agreement on this.

Sincerely and prayerfully,
Carole

 

[Binary_Paul]

Joysong, I think an important question that needs to be asked is, how do we foster vocations? What I am attempting to do by the previous post is point out that it has been directed by the Church, especially by the Holy Father, that charismatics use their gifts to serve the Church. All to often charismatic prayer groups become a separate group that function somewhat apart from the parish life as a group. Sure, many of the people in the group serve in their parishes, but they are often viewed as a group, as just another group that is tolerated by the priest in that parish.

I know that there is quite a spectrum of how charismatic prayer groups are incorporated into each parish.

I am just suggesting that we work hard, and strive to find how we can serve our parishes. Our prayer group and its example should be viewed as essential by the priest in doing his work in the parish. If we work diligently, and in union with Rome, then we are not usually viewed as a threat to our priest, but rather a resource to be used. What happens is that we can assist people to open up to the Holy Spirit, who leads people to their vocation. I believe it is a fact that the lack of vocations is directly caused by the lack of a persons understanding and willingness to seek the Holy Spirit about their vocation.

Since we have been working with our area pastors and have become trusted by them, we have been asked to serve more often, especially in teaching the faith. There has been an increase in area religious vocations because of this. I mean to suggest that we need to work more at gaining our priests trust and do everything possible to assist them. I believe it is very important to work under our priest’s authority, because this is where we can be protected from error. It is where the grace of God is most effective.

I certainly don’t suggest that with the absence of a priest that we disband.

I will post you privately with some ideas if you would like.

 

[Joysong]

Hello, Paul,

What I am attempting to do by the previous post is point out that it has been directed by the Church, especially by the Holy Father, that charismatics use their gifts to serve the Church.

Yes, I have seen in the beginnings of the movement that the biggest obstacle to service in the Church came from the clergy, who mistrusted the overzealous members who wanted to dominate the work of the parish and teach the pastor how to do it. Thank goodness much of this aggressiveness has disappeared as the members matured under the discipline of the Holy Spirit. I am seeing more of a quiet, humble willingness to serve and be in submission to the pastor’s authority. It took a number of years to be able to trust each other.

If we work diligently, and in union with Rome, then we are not usually viewed as a threat to our priest, but rather a resource to be used.

Since we have been working with our area pastors and have become trusted by them, we have been asked to serve more often, especially in teaching the faith.

I believe it is very important to work under our priest’s authority, because this is where we can be protected from error. It is where the grace of God is most effective.

It is so good to see these positive tones in this thread!

Yes, Paul - the priesthood of the laity has been dormant for too many years, for we relied on the priest to do it all, sad to say. It seems we are returning to the situation of the early Church when the movement of those “Christians” was just getting started. Without the laity assisting and serving, the Church would have been unable to increase and spread. And you are right, that is where new vocations came from as people were attracted to the Lord through the loving Spirit of these servants.

One area of service that is invaluable to the priest is assisting with hospital ministry. The days when Father brought communion to the sick are almost a thing of the past. Praise God who opened up this door, for those who are ill are deeply grateful to have opportunity to receive Holy Communion. I think it has deepened their compassion towards the sick for those who minister in this situation also. Beautiful things happening! God’s left-handed blessing coming from a real vocation disaster.

I certainly don’t suggest that with the absence of a priest that we disband.

:yup: Agreed. That would be most unfortunate!

God’s peace and joy,
Carole

 

[Makerteacher]

I have not been able to read ALL the responses on this thread. But I did want to put in my two cents on tongues.

Let me start by stating that I am a sinner, but also a practicing and obedient Catholic who attends daily Mass, and that I am also a charismatic. (Our Mass is not a charismatic Mass, which is fine, as the current chaplain we have is a WONDERFUL discalced Carmelite priest.) In addition to daily Mass, I attend a once-weekly prayer meeting on Sunday afternoons, where we sing praise songs, sing in tongues, hear teachings and prophecies, and pray for one another and for the world.

That said, **tongues is THE LEAST of the gifts. ** Scripture is VERY clear on this point. And yet it is the one most often focused on, epsecially by people who don’t like the Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. Why is that? I sometimes think it’s analogous to Satan trying to get us all flustered about how the paint job is peeling on the boat, so we don’t notice we’re about to go over the waterfall and crash on the rocks below.

All of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are meant to be used for the building up of the Body of Christ. Far more important to the body are gifts of leadership, teaching, healing, etc. *Why don’t we speak as often about this far more fruitful gifts? *

Not every gift is for every person. For example, I don’t have the gift of prophecy, and I don’t have the gift of leadership, either. That’s OK. * I have the gifts God needs me to have to serve His people in this place at this time. * In the future, I may lose these gifts and get others instead. They are GIFTS. The Body needs all its parts, and not all parts are the same. Not everyone is going to get this gift of tongues. I think, personally, that telling people to babble to “get started” is falacious. I am also certain that in no way is the gift of tongues “proof” of having receiving the blessings of the Holy Spirit.

Charismatic Catholics are a growing lay apostolate within the Catholic Church, and** most** Charismatic Catholic groups are in total obedience to Rome, operating with the official approval of the Vatican and the Pope. **It is clear and perfectly acceptable that this particular lay apostolate is NOT for everyone. No lay apostolate is. ** The Catholic Charismatic Renewal presents no new doctrine. Instead, members emphasize the teachings of the Catholic Church and often focus on ecumenical outreach, as well as maintaining some amazing missionary movements. Charismatics have a calling to the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. Some charismatics function within their parish. Others, in addition to living out a faith life in their parishes, have formed covenant communities. For more info, go here.

catholicfraternity.net/
iccrs.org/
catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/charismatic.htm

Here’s a link to the Catholic school run by our local Catholic Charismatic Community, the Christian Community of God’s Delight in Dallas, TX.

www.POPCSdallas.com
To see me, go to staff, then to 1-8th grade homeroom teachers. I teach 8th.

 

[beng]

nevermind

 

[beng]

Mysty101:

DOES NOT REQUIRE INTERPRETATION

You’re going against 1Cor 14:27-28.

 

[beng]

Elainevw:

Only God can create unity out of what seems like disconnected sounds or words and to me this is what tongues of this nature are.

I thought some God Breathed words said:

1Cor 14:6-11
6 Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how shall I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will any one know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves; if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning; 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.