tongues

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Mysty101:
Hi Elaine,
That about sums it up.

Another thing to remember is that we are saying that it is an option for those who feel called to pray in this manner. Anyone who doesn’t wish to use this prayer method should seek the prayer most beneficial to them.

But it is very wrong to condemn the prayer method of an approved movement of the Church.

report regarding the conference
**Does anyone think there was even the slightest possibility that there was no praying in tongues? or that the Prayer Tongues were interpreted? If anything wrong was occurring, could these high officials just let it happen?

SuZ**
Do you think that if there was a murder comitted in front of the highest Church hierarchy and then those in the hierarchy witnessing doesn’t do anything then it means that we are to commend murders?

How awful?

The Bible has spoken. Read 1 Cor 14:27-28. It clearly forbid speaking tongue in front of the congregation. Do you wanna go against the Bible?
 
Binary Paul:
Wow, Things have gotten a little testy over the weekend.

I would suggest that those who have a problem with the charisms of the Holy Spirit, and like to pick one or two verses in an attempt to *misdirect *the meaning of those scriptures, read not only the whole of that section of the letter, but also the footnotes.
Is this directed to moi?
Chapters 11,12,13, and 14 of Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthians deal with problems in liturgical assemblies. All of the verses contained in this section must be read in this context. Chapter 13 in particular should be noted because we obviously have dropped the ball somewhat in regards to respectful and humble speech. If I had the opportunity to sit down personally with some of you it would be instructive to read this chapter together. I say this only to encourage you to do so.
The footnote for 1 Corinthians 14: 20-22 (New American Bible) is instructive to the debate at hand. “The Corinthian’s pride themselves on tongues as a sign of God’s favor, a means of direct communication with him. (2:28) To challenge them to a more mature appraisal, Paul draws from scripture a less flattering explanation of what speaking in tongues may signify…”
This does not in any way demean the use of tongues in personal praise or prayer. Paul’s letter was to correct an ignorant and immature church, which seemed to be caught up in the gift of tongues to a degree that was stunting their growth. In fact, the Corinthian’s were having many problems including some doubting the resurrection of Jesus.
(The criticism of the overemphasis on the gift of tongues can truthfully by leveled at some charismatic prayer groups today. I have noticed in conversations with many charasmatic’s that many don’t avail themselves of the sacrament of reconciliation on a regular basis, nor know basic Catholic doctrine.) The main point again is to recognize that Paul is speaking in regards to the practice of the liturgy for the sake of order and for the building of the church. If the Corinthians had persisted in just focusing on gathering to praise God with tongues then they would not mature as Christians and work to spread the Gospel effectively.
continued…
Wow, you use NAB footnotes. Too bad I don’t have a link that shows how an EWTN expert critisize one of the footnote as overtly heretical.

My main point still stands, if tongue is spoken in front of the conggregation without interpretation, the spirit of disobedience have entered them.
 
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tru_dvotion:
Being silent when it is our duty to speak out is a sin. Everyone “is bound to give the admonition when the sin, committed though it be from ignorance, is hurtful to the offender or a third party or is the occasion of scandal.” (St. Augustine)

“The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.” (St. Thomas)

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart, but reprove him openly, lest thou incur sin through him” (Leviticus 19:17).

“He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:20).

Jesus - “If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him” (Luke 17:3).

“Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear” (1 Timothy 5:20).

“Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine” (2 Timothy 4:2).

“Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Galatians 6:1).

It is a grace from God to be corrected, a grace that should be thankfully and humbly accepted the moment it is offered to us. “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels” (Proverbs 12:15).

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

“The sentence ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged’ is usually quoted out of context. Christ did not enjoin us to refrain from ever judging. What he went on to say in the next four verses is that we should judge ourselves before we judge others–not that we shouldn’t judge at all.

“I came not to send peace, but the sword” (Matt. 10:34), we should be warriors of Christ. The holy Church on earth is called ecclesia militaris (“the Church militant”). We cannot at the same time hunger and thirst after justice—an inherent basic attitude of the true Christian—and be at universal peace with the doers of evil and the unjust.

St. John goes so far as to advise the faithful against greeting heretics (2 John 10-1)

If a person is doing wrong, and you tell him in a kind manner, a charitable manner, that they are committing a sin, and that they will lose their soul and go to purgatory, or even hell, that is not judging. You are helping and loving your neighbor.

The Ten Commandments have been replaced with what Alan Wolfe refers to as America’s Eleventh Commandment: Thou shalt not judge.
Is this directed to moi?
 
Dear Beng,

I am glad to see you back. I do not have higher regards for the CCR anymore than you do, but I think you are hurting yourself with this mission of yours to discredit it. You are banned more often than not and you are not being taken seriously anymore. The CCR will topple one day, or it may just fade away, as all things not built on solid foundation eventually do, but be careful not to let your desire to see it disappear hurt you personally. I would love to see you post on some other topics; I presume you have thoughts beyond tongues and such? God bless.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.” (St. Thomas)
How true, Of course this has to be done in love. None of us like to be corrected when we are in error, but the fact is if we do not have a teachable spirit we will never learn the truth. 😉
Are you willing to be corrected by God breathed words? 1 Cor 14:27-28.
 
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Joysong:
I suspect if any such person would listen to God first, he might hear, “Who, O man, has appointed thee to discern the evil in another’s heart, and set about to deliver them?”
1Co 6:2
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
As we are discussing the CCR here, I have a very hard time believing that anyone can say with absolute certainty that these charismatic Christians are committing “grave” sins, walking in absolute error, and must be delivered by those wise ones who are sent by God to admonish them.
I wouldn’t know if it’s a grave sin. Most of these erroneous charismatics are not even aware of it. But if those HERE who read the thread and see 1 cor 14:27-28 copy and paste over and over and over do not heed, then maybe they are disobedience which could lead to sin, if not already a sin.
It is absolutely distressing to see this wherever it is manifested, especially since the Church has given documented approval in this matter.

:twocents: Carole
SSPX has papacy aproval and documents approval.
 
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tru_dvotion:
Dear Beng,

I am glad to see you back. I do not have higher regards for the CCR anymore than you do, but I think you are hurting yourself with this mission of yours to discredit it. You are banned more often than not and you are not being taken seriously anymore. The CCR will topple one day, or it may just fade away, as all things not built on solid foundation eventually do, but be careful not to let your desire to see it disappear hurt you personally. I would love to see you post on some other topics; I presume you have thoughts beyond tongues and such? God bless.
I think neo-charismaticism is dangerous and hereticals.

And I think that lurkers will see the point that I’m trying to make.

NO ONE until now gives enough substantive argument againt the proposal that:
  1. Tongues in front of believers without interpretation is erroneous
  2. Baptism by Spirit as understand in the Charismaticism is heretical
“not taken seriously” will not sway me from telling it like it is. I even considered that a cheap shot, but anyway…

If you wanna see my other posts go to apologetic forum and see “Reason… fatih alone” thread or just click “find all posts” on my profile.
 
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beng:
Are you willing to be corrected by God breathed words? 1 Cor 14:27-28.
Welcome
back brother Beng. I can see you have come back with the same spirit. How about putting your gift of tongues to use in the noncatholic forum.There are a couple of Wiccans who could use your gift.You are here to help correct errors,correct? Looking forward to read your (name removed by moderator)ut. 👍
 
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beng:
Because it looks like it.
Beng, if you believe that post was directed at you, I can draw only two conclusions. You have failed to follow the thread and did not recognize why I posted those Scriptural passages, or you cannot differentiate between friend and foe. I hope, for your sake, it is the first possibility.

You see, the greatest obstacles are hurled by those persons, who take the humanist approach of “charity” and look to validate and honor concepts they have only superficial knowledge of and do not fully understand. In turn they judge those, who bring attention to why something is undeserving.

The charismatics are heretics all right, but they are also very limited in their arguments. Have you noticed the majority are unable to carry a theological discussion? All their conversation is hype, or about feelings, or about their spiritual gifts or how much love they have in their hearts. But try to oppose them… they turn ugly and unloving. The most difficult to deal with are the humanists who feel righteous enough to oppose the call for discernment. They will keep insisting we cannot judge, because if we do we lack charity. What these good intentioned people fail to realize is we have to judge every day. If we do not judge, we can easily fall prey to the same traps others have fallen into. We are not up against the CCR, we are up against the humanists. Without the fallacies of humanism there would not be a CCR in the Catholic Church today, because it would have been judged unworthy and heretical.

You are anything but a humanist Beng. I really cannot fathom why you would think I directed that particular post at you?
 
QUOTE TRU_DVOTION. charismatics are heretics all right, but they are also very limited in their arguments. Have you noticed the majority are unable to carry a theological discussion? All their conversation is hype, or about feelings, or about their spiritual gifts or how much love they have in their hearts. But try to oppose them… they turn ugly and unloving. Thats your problem Tru, to much theology and not enough intimacy. You know that I love you[in Christ] even though you think we have to much love in our Hearts. Did you not know that God is Love? Well us heretics want to be full of His LOVE. God Bless . 👍
 
Dear Word,

Would you not agree that conversing about having love in one’s heart and actually having love in one’s heart are two very different things? How do we know there is LOVE in the human heart? What did Jesus say? Read John 15: "Now REMAIN in my love. IF you obey my commands, you will REMAIN in my love just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (John 15).
 
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tru_dvotion:
Beng, if you believe that post was directed at you, I can draw only two conclusions. You have failed to follow the thread and did not recognize why I posted those Scriptural passages, or you cannot differentiate between friend and foe. I hope, for your sake, it is the first possibility.
I lost track of thread. Once you made a thread saying that the discussion has gone to worst. Call it intuition, call it prejudice call it whatever but I think that post is directed at me. And then in this thread I saw those verses. The posts seems to follow from the past.

Thus I asked for clarification so I can formulate a better respond. A query is not an accusation.
You see, the greatest obstacles are hurled by those persons, who take the humanist approach of “charity” and look to validate and honor concepts they have only superficial knowledge of and do not fully understand. In turn they judge those, who bring attention to why something is undeserving.
I agree. That’s why I came up with “warm fuzzy feeling” ™ concept.
The charismatics are heretics all right, but they are also very limited in their arguments. Have you noticed the majority are unable to carry a theological discussion? All their conversation is hype, or about feelings, or about their spiritual gifts or how much love they have in their hearts. But try to oppose them… they turn ugly and unloving. The most difficult to deal with are the humanists who feel righteous enough to oppose the call for discernment. They will keep insisting we cannot judge, because if we do we lack charity. What these good intentioned people fail to realize is we have to judge every day. If we do not judge, we can easily fall prey to the same traps others have fallen into. We are not up against the CCR, we are up against the humanists. Without the fallacies of humanism there would not be a CCR in the Catholic Church today, because it would have been judged unworthy and heretical.
This is nothing new to me. To make long story short, we (and my online frineds) were invoved in a board wars. It was a Protestant boards. You could say that the board is the epitome of “warm fuzzy feelingness”.

It’s very laughable and annoying when “we” were viewed as meany and then after that they say “I will pray for you so that the spirit will touch your heart”.

That is ridiculous and basically saying “You’re big bad bully therefore I’m right and a much better person than you

That attitude is disgusting actually
You are anything but a humanist Beng. I really cannot fathom why you would think I directed that particular post at you?
That first post of yours which said that this discussion is going downhill. Well at least now everything is cleared up.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Thats your problem Tru, to much theology and not enough intimacy. You know that I love you[in Christ] even though you think we have to much love in our Hearts. Did you not know that God is Love? Well us heretics want to be full of His LOVE. God Bless . 👍
Hippies also loved so what?

If you practice the errors of charismatics I will also call you a heretic, with love.

If I’m a Bishop I will banished you from my Diocese, with love.

I will reprimand you, with love.

This is a true love. Not some warm fuzzy feeling ™ of love which hippy could also have.
 
Dear Beng,

Check out your messages before you get banned again.

tru
 
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SPOKENWORD:
QUOTE TRU_DVOTION. … Thats your problem Tru, to much theology and not enough intimacy. … Did you not know that God is Love? Well us heretics want to be full of His LOVE. God Bless . 👍
I LOVE the way your worded the above… It’s so tru in so many, many ways!😉
Annunciata:love:
 
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Annunciata:
I LOVE the way your worded the above… It’s so tru in so many, many ways!😉
Annunciata:love:
What if the Charismatic is in Theological error. Would the “intimacy” make it not erroneous?
 
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beng:
What if the Charismatic is in Theological error. Would the “intimacy” makes it not erroneous?
Hi Beng,
Glad to seee your back…I can see my prayers aren’t working…YET!
I lift you up in prayer and ask the Lord to take the blinders off and that you may tuly show your Catholic love in the way your were supposed too from your Baptism and your Confirmation!!! Let me see you exhibit some of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit…so far you are batting 0! I love you Beng! Annunciata:)
 
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Annunciata:
Hi Beng,
Glad to seee your back…I can see my prayers aren’t working…YET!
I lift you up in prayer and ask the Lord to take the blinders off and that you may tuly show your Catholic love in the way your were supposed too from your Baptism and your Confirmation!!! Let me see you exhibit some of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit…so far you are batting 0! I love you Beng! Annunciata:)
Do I not love you by showing you the errors of Charismatics?

Does Fr William Most not love us by showing the errors of Charismatics?

And what would tell you that your prayers are working? That I suddenly speak in tongues? That I become Charismatics?
 
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