Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

[ucfengr]

Do you really think this is an appropriate analogy?

Yes. Why do you think it not? Both are forms of body mutilation.

 

[Thorolfr]

There is a flaw in the idea that changing societies attitudes will make the problems of the transgender disappear. Sexuality is a whole package. There will always be something missing in the lives where the unitive and procreative desires inherent to all of us as human beings become disrupted.

Even if society fully accepts the lives of those of alternative sexual orientations, the reality of their condition does not change. The incongruence between what gratification of their own sexual desires can provide them, and the desires inherent to sexual being not just for love but for procreating children through their own bodies remains.

Suicide is not a consequence of others hating the person. There are ample resources in North American communities now for any orientation to find love and acceptance. Suicide is the consequence of the person hating who he is, and recognizing the hopelessness of ever being able to fulfill the conflicting desires that his or her orientation thrusts upon him.

If you want to actually learn more about LGBT people or learn more about why some of them suffer from depression or commit suicide, you should learn from people who know something about the subject. You might consider actually talking to some real LGBT people or read what organizations that do research on this subject have to say such as the Family Acceptance Project at California State University, San Francisco:

The Family Acceptance Project™ is a research, intervention, education and policy initiative that works to prevent health and mental health risks for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) children and youth, including suicide, homelessness and HIV – in the context of their families. We use a research-based, culturally grounded approach to help ethnically, socially and religiously diverse families to support their LGBT children.

Our team has been putting research into practice by developing an evidence-based family model of wellness, prevention and care to strengthen families and promote positive development and healthy futures for LGBT children and youth. We provide training and consultation on our family-based prevention and intervention approach across the U.S. and in other countries.

familyproject.sfsu.edu/home

 

[Cider]

There is a flaw in the idea that changing societies attitudes will make the problems of the transgender disappear. Sexuality is a whole package. There will always be something missing in the lives where the unitive and procreative desires inherent to all of us as human beings become disrupted.

Even if society fully accepts the lives of those of alternative sexual orientations, the reality of their condition does not change. The incongruence between what gratification of their own sexual desires can provide them, and the desires inherent to sexual being not just for love but for procreating children through their own bodies remains.

Suicide is not a consequence of others hating the person. There are ample resources in North American communities now for any orientation to find love and acceptance. Suicide is the consequence of the person hating who he is, and recognizing the hopelessness of ever being able to fulfill the conflicting desires that his or her orientation thrusts upon him.

Well said.

 

[BrassAnkles]

If you want to actually learn more about LGBT people or learn more about why some of them suffer from depression or commit suicide, you should learn from people who know something about the subject. You might consider actually talking to some real LGBT people or read what organizations that do research on this subject have to say such as the Family Acceptance Project at California State University, San Francisco:

familyproject.sfsu.edu/home

Therefore we go with more myths.

Homosexuality is accepted by the majority of students and teachers in public schools; 75% support homosexual marriage so compared to other trends acceptance in general will be higher, maybe 90%.

Therefore, there is no point in trying to indoctrinate children anymore because moral relativism cannot only achieve less effectiveness than Christian education because of it’s pluralistic nature where almost everything is permissible.

 

[FollowChrist34]

This is a complete aside, but one of the new people at the front desk of my gym is this cross dressing kid - guy who dresses like a woman for the most part, nail polish, earrings, really dramatic hair style. He looks to be about 20 or so. He does the sing song voice really heavy. The whole time I chat with him I can never shake the feeling he is just waiting to pounce on my disapproval and discomfort. Really intense eye contact. That must be very draining to have to do that all day long. Anyway, happy to report, we have finally hit a note where we just exchange a few actually pretty pleasant remarks without the staring and tension. I consider that progress, and I do feel a little sorry for him. Takes a lot of energy to be that dramatic.

 

[SMGS127]

He was a boy who felt like a girl, his DNA will always make him male, wanting to be something you can never be is not healthy.

You are more than free to believe that, but that is not binding Catholic teaching. The only Catholic teaching is that gender is unchangeable, not that it must match one’s birth genitalia. Otherwise, a child in-embryo would have no gender and birth defects would not exist. It is impossible to determine unilaterally with 100% confidence a child’s gender in a world where genetic birth defects exist.

I keep hearing mixed things about the parents, if they really isolated him then thats bad…what about at school was he homeschooled or something?

She was originally schooled in public schools and her parents forcibly removed her from them and locked her in the house in retaliation for her coming out publicly as a transgender woman.

 

[SMGS127]

Are you sure they have allowed surgery for this particular mental disorder? I heard trying to change your sex is considered self mutilation

ncronline.org/news/vatican-says-sex-change-operation-does-not-change-persons-gender

The Vatican document’s specific points include:

– An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the patient’s internal turmoil.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Transgender people commit suicide at much higher rates than the general population. But this is not the fault of “society”. This idea that self-mutilation can achieve what therapy cannot is crazy. Psychiatrists should stop pretending that one’s desire to become the other sex is not a disorder. It is.

Indeed!

Gender identity issues are often linked to stories of self-harm and other mental health pathologies.

But the LGBTQ lobby would have us believe that one precedes the other and all that’s needed to remedy the problem is a society which happily and openly embraces any/all forms of public sexual self-expression equally and treats them as perfectly normal.

I agree this would remedy a lot of the self-obsessed, attention-seeking, counter-culture behaviour we see publicly in the vocal gay/trans community. (Unless boredom leads to depression.)

But would it fix the underlying mental health issues that may coincide with, rather than result FROM, gender identity issues.

 

[ucfengr]

You are more than free to believe that, but that is not binding Catholic teaching. The only Catholic teaching is that gender is unchangeable, not that it must match one’s birth genitalia.

More than a little legalistic hairsplitting in this statement.

 

[cena]

You are more than free to believe that, but that is not binding Catholic teaching. The only Catholic teaching is that gender is unchangeable, not that it must match one’s birth genitalia.

She was originally schooled in public schools and her parents forcibly removed her from them and locked her in the house in retaliation for her coming out publicly as a transgender woman.

As far as I know it is not biologically possible to change chromosomes. Wanting to be a girl, even if you feel like a female, when you can never have two X chromosomes no matter how much hormonal treatments, surgeries, etc. is an impossible goal.

 

[BrassAnkles]

You are more than free to believe that, but that is not binding Catholic teaching. The only Catholic teaching is that gender is unchangeable, not that it must match one’s birth genitalia. Otherwise, a child in-embryo would have no gender and birth defects would not exist. It is impossible to determine unilaterally with 100% confidence a child’s gender in a world where genetic birth defects exist.

She was originally schooled in public schools and her parents forcibly removed her from them and locked her in the house in retaliation for her coming out publicly as a transgender woman.

This is not true. The Catholic Church does not reject the Old Testament teaching regarding prohibiting sexual aberrations. Men were not to pretend to be women.
*
“A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, your God.”*

Also, your statement about not being able to determine 100% confidence what a child’s biological sex is incorrect, and is not substantiated by science.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

She wrote about it herself on her Tumblr, how her “therapy” was being shamed into thinking she was supporting a grave evil by being a woman. That’s pretty much the definition of anti-trans conversion therapy – trying to force someone to “convert” to become male, which is impossible for a woman to do.

If that is the case, than yeah that sounds like a type of conversion therapy which as I understand it isn’t effective or necessary according to Church teachings. However, if you review you’ll see that I’m going off just the article. I haven’t accessed her tumblr account.

Her parents relented a slight amount towards the end of her life. She was completely socially isolated for a long period of time.
She indicates on tumblr that she was locked in her room, or are you inferring that she was socially isolated because she thought she was because she lost her phone and social media?

No, but using it in order to keep her from having any outside conduct of any kind in vindictiveness over her gender is abuse.
My daughter swears I take her stuff away from her because I hate her. Doesn’t make it true. You’re implying a motive to the parents (vindictiveness) that our level of information does not allow us to guess at. Is it possible her parents hated her and wanted to be vindictive? Remote, but possible. It is also possible that they thought they were helping her.

I think it is clear that they abused her, especially after her mom tried to play off the suicide as an accident on Facebook.
Or the mother is in the first stages of grief (denial) over the loss of her child and can’t bring herself to cope with the idea that her child killed herself. It is odd that an advocate for charity toward others such as yourself does not seem to have much for these parents.

 

[SMGS127]

As far as I know it is not biologically possible to change chromosomes. Wanting to be a girl, even if you feel like a female, when you can never have two X chromosomes no matter how much hormonal treatments, surgeries, etc. is an impossible goal.

But chromosomes can get screwed up in many ways. There are XO people, XXY people, XXX people, people with chimerism (both XX and XY), etc. I hesitate to suggest anything so fallible to a birth defect can be representative of something so infallible as one’s gender.

We are getting to the point genetically where parents can force their child in-utero to make the genitalia of their choosing – does this mean that the parents are also changing the child’s gender?

 

[meltzerboy]

This is not true. The Catholic Church does not reject the Old Testament teaching regarding prohibiting sexual aberrations. Men were not to pretend to be women.
*
“A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, your God.”*

Also, your statement about not being able to determine 100% confidence what a child’s biological sex is incorrect, and is not substantiated by science.

There are several Jewish interpretations of this verse from Deuteronomy, not all of them referring to immoral Pagan sexual practices in Canaan. For example, one rabbinical interpretation maintains that the cross-dressing is related to the issue of disguising oneself as the opposite sex for the purpose of engaging in illicit practices, sexual or otherwise. A case in point is that women were not permitted to engage in warfare by dressing like a man. It is not necessarily the cross-dressing per se that is forbidden but the way in which cross-dressing may be utilized. Important in many of the interpretations is the context of the surrounding verses, which deal with ethical practices targeted toward loving one’s neighbor.

 

[SMGS127]

She indicates on tumblr that she was locked in her room, or are you inferring that she was socially isolated because she thought she was because she lost her phone and social media?

No, she was essentially barred from outside contact of any kind for a lengthy period of time. Her parents backed off a bit near the end of her life, but she was kept locked away from the world for a long time.

My daughter swears I take her stuff away from her because I hate her. Doesn’t make it true. You’re implying a motive to the parents (vindictiveness) that our level of information does not allow us to guess at. Is it possible her parents hated her and wanted to be vindictive? Remote, but possible. It is also possible that they thought they were helping her.

Many dads who beat their children with belts also think they are helping their children. I am merely assessing the immorality of the parents’ behavior, not the intent behind the parents. It is immoral to abuse one’s children, whether or not it is seen by the parents as abuse.

Or the mother is in the first stages of grief (denial) over the loss of her child and can’t bring herself to cope with the idea that her child killed herself. It is odd that an advocate for charity toward others such as yourself does not seem to have much for these parents.

Point taken, though I intended that statement to be taken more so that the mother was so stricken with guilt over the issue that she was attempting to force herself to believe she didn’t lead her daughter into suicide. I didn’t intend to mean that she was trying to maliciously get away with murder or something – obviously, there’s zero chance she’d be charged with a crime, despite her actions leading to her daughter’s suicide.

 

[ucfengr]

We are getting to the point genetically where parents can force their child in-utero to make the genitalia of their choosing – does this mean that the parents are also changing the child’s gender?

We’re not there yet, but if we ever do, yes.

 

[SMGS127]

We’re not there yet, but if we ever do, yes.

That answer is a direct violation of Catholic teaching and Jeremiah 1. We are known by God before, during, and after our lives on Earth. Key word “before.” Our gender is unchangeable and immutable, known to God before we are born, and present at [and before] conception. It is a direct violation of Catholic teaching to suggest that the alteration of genetic development to induce the production of reproductive organs “changes” someone’s gender.

 

[BrassAnkles]

There are several Jewish interpretations of this verse from Deuteronomy, not all of them referring to immoral Pagan sexual practices in Canaan. For example, one rabbinical interpretation maintains that the cross-dressing is related to the issue of disguising oneself as the opposite sex for the purpose of engaging in illicit practices, sexual or otherwise. A case in point is that women were not permitted to engage in warfare by dressing like a man. It is not necessarily the cross-dressing per se that is forbidden but the way in which cross-dressing may be utilized. Important in many of the interpretations is the context of the surrounding verses, which deal with ethical practices targeted toward loving one’s neighbor.

The Catholic interpretation has remained true to the original.

 

[BrassAnkles]

But chromosomes can get screwed up in many ways. There are XO people, XXY people, XXX people, people with chimerism (both XX and XY), etc. I hesitate to suggest anything so fallible to a birth defect can be representative of something so infallible as one’s gender.

We are getting to the point genetically where parents can force their child in-utero to make the genitalia of their choosing – does this mean that the parents are also changing the child’s gender?

Transgender and intersex conditions completely different as the latter is biological and very rare.

For more than 99% of people there is no ambiguity regarding their biological sex.

Regarding your claim we are getting close to be able to change the sex of humans please provide a scholarly reference.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Well, the Church actually allows for the surgery in cases where it is required for the mental wellbeing of the individual. And while She affirms that people cannot change their gender, the Church does not mandate that our gender is infallibly linked to our birth genitalia.

So this is not a clear-cut issue whatsoever, unlike what uber-conservatives try to present it as in the Church. Either way, child abuse (aka conversion therapy) should never be legalized by a state for any minor. The parents and “counselors” involved in this child’s life are ultimately at least partially responsible for her death. You cannot put a child through continuous abuse and expect them to be fine.

Again, we as a society need to change.

Why can’t adults make their own decisions about conversion therapy?

It seems to have worked for a lot of people.