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johnnyjones
Guest
I’ve said what your saying all along. As well, is this was a white on white or black on black shooting and the shooter and the victim did the same things act by act, the story would get little or no attention.
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jen_fla
Guest
for the most part i agree with you and you may be right about “child” in florida, although the term juvenile is generally used for those under 18 and child for those under 14 (general age of puberty), but i concede you may be legally right. an attorney would have to help me out in determining what is the point of law students referencing, black’s law if the definitions don’t matter.I’m not even sure if the state’s definition will be a factor in this case. It might have if this were a child abuse case, or if Trayvon were alive to be prosecuted in the juvenile justice system.
But unless I’m missing something, the “legal definition” of child is not an issue here at all, so call him child all you want. Or don’t. Whatever floats your boat.
regardless, using the term “child” along with the media showing a picture of martin when he was 12 distorts the reality of his age and physique at the time of the incident. that is isn’t right and can affect the outcome of the trial.
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
And YOU, of course, were not there either…yet you and others are free (like me) to speculate…and you have been doing the same thing. We do not know if GZ was attacked by TM…and we also do not know if GZ actually attacked TM. Goes both ways.
EVERYBODY needs to back off and let the special prosecutor do their jobs. BOTH sides are guilty of race-baiting and provocative statements. The Black Panther and Al Sharpton thing is equally reprehensible.
Apparently the domestic violence charge was dropped. Regardless, he was accused of it…and people investigated it…could it be just that someone decided to make something up against him?
So it was OK for GZ to disregard instructions to NOT confront the suspect…OK.
Some seem to be implying here (not necessarily you) tat basically it is OK for people to “step over the line” in the name of security.
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SamH
Guest
Again you are claiming things that no one could possibly know without being there because they conflict with the information that has been released by the police.And YOU, of course, were not there either…
EVERYBODY needs to back off and let the special prosecutor do their jobs. BOTH sides are guilty of race-baiting and provocative statements. The Black Panther and Al Sharpton thing is equally reprehensible.
Apparently the domestic violence charge was dropped. Regardless, he was accused of it…and people investigated it…could it be just that someone decided to make something up against him?
So it was OK for GZ to disregard instructions to NOT confront the suspect…OK.
Some seem to be implying here (not necessarily you) tat basically it is OK for people to “step over the line” in the name of security.
No one has provided any proof that GZ disregarded instructions not to confront Martin, in fact the police admit that facts and circumstances indicate Martin confronted and attacked GZ.
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johnnyjones
Guest
The problem with this case is I could now say to you - should TM have approached GZ- it goes back and forth.And YOU, of course, were not there either…
EVERYBODY needs to back off and let the special prosecutor do their jobs. BOTH sides are guilty of race-baiting and provocative statements. The Black Panther and Al Sharpton thing is equally reprehensible.
Apparently the domestic violence charge was dropped. Regardless, he was accused of it…and people investigated it…could it be just that someone decided to make something up against him?
So it was OK for GZ to disregard instructions to NOT confront the suspect…OK.
Some seem to be implying here (not necessarily you) tat basically it is OK for people to “step over the line” in the name of security.
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jen_fla
Guest
bold part:And YOU, of course, were not there either…yet you and others are free (like me) to speculate…and you have been doing the same thing. We do not know if GZ was attacked by TM…and we also do not know if GZ actually attacked TM. Goes both ways.
EVERYBODY needs to back off and let the special prosecutor do their jobs. BOTH sides are guilty of race-baiting and provocative statements. The Black Panther and Al Sharpton thing is equally reprehensible.
Apparently the domestic violence charge was dropped. Regardless, he was accused of it…and people investigated it…could it be just that someone decided to make something up against him?
**So it was OK for GZ to disregard instructions to NOT confront the suspect…OK.
**
Some seem to be implying here (not necessarily you) tat basically it is OK for people to “step over the line” in the name of security.
how do you know he disregarded the dispatchers instructions? he said ok and then continued talking. sure didn’t sound like he was walking or huffing along.
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Havard
Guest
Then maybe I can help, I’m a lawyer.
Long story short, Black’s is what is called a persuasive authority. Courts must take into account binding authorities, whereas they may follow persuasive ones.
Black’s can be of help in situations where there is no binding authority that has already defined the term.
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
I know what you are saying…believe me, I do.
The thing is…HOW did they determine that GZ followed the order to not confront? Was it the conversation with the dispatcher? That’s what hisf friend implied on Piers Morgan last night. Was it the “eyewitness” who says he saw Martin attacking Zimmerman?
Did he actually SEE Martin being the aggressor (i.e., starting the fight)? From the informations given, he only saw the fight in progress already.
That’s why I feel both sides need a good old-fashioned gag order on this. let the Florida attorney do its job.
Who knows…
OTOH, I admit it is VERY hard for me to believe TM just upped and decided to attack a complete stranger for no obvious reason…and a bigger (have you seen his mug shot?) guy with who knows what in his person (we all unfortunately now know what). A 17-year old kid is not that stupid to confront someone like that late at night, FEET away fron his house. Least, as far as I know. Maybe I’m wrong. Who knows…
Unless he felt the guy was out to do him harm, like he implied to his girlfriend on the phone. Maybe of GZ had identified himslef from the beginning instead of asking menacingly “What are you doing here” like what supposedly his girlfriend heard--------then maybe TM supposedly would not have freaked.
And again to be honest, his “record” at school (three suspensions for minor stuff like graffiti)----does not cry out “thug juvenile delinquent” to me.
Just like there is a rush to judgement regarding GZ, there has also been an equal rush to judgement reagrding TM frojm some quarters. This was not athug, for God’s sake----this was basically good kid.
And even if it turns out that TM shares a lot of the blame for what happened, GZ STILL overreacted and abused his role as a measly Neighborhood Watch person. Even Geraldo (whom I don’t care for but I agree with him on this) called GZ “nutty” and “overzealous.” He also bears reponsibbility----for thinking he was “The Defender Of His Neighborhood” (tat----tata-raaa) and basically provoking a kid (IF that’s what he did) into freaking out and attacking someone.
Sorry, i just don’t think GZ, as the ADULT in this case, was acting responsibly. Whatever TM may or may not have done.
Oh yeah---------what about the supposed “c–n” word GZ supposedly said? Has it been verified or not?
Whichever way one looks at this------I feel so sad and depressed about the state that we’ve arrived at here.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Well I have to tell ya, after listening to this conversation today, IMHO the only thing that matters right now is that 911 tape and what the FBI can get off it. If those inaudiable words turn out racist there will be a hate crime.
I can’t see any other reason for all this attention.
I can’t see any other reason for all this attention.
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Just as there is a witness to Martin “beating” Zimmerman, there were two women (who’ve been all over the news, in case you don’t know) who saw Zimmermann on top of Martin and acting “aggressively” towards him.
Which contradicts some statements that he made to the police.
That’s the problem here ----we have different people seeing different things. SOMEBODY is luying or at least “fitting the situation to preconceived notions.”
Some of these witnesses have come forward--------and apparently have been RIDICULED and DISMISSED by the police. Which the PTB have NOT really covered. How do you answer that?
You are also implying as well (and I’m sorry if I ruffle some feathers here-----but YES, I will go there) that the police are nice, honest, well-meaning people here with no stake in the matter. ]That, at least, is what you are implying to me------if I’m wrong, I apologize.
Sorry--------the police department in sanford has been accused of racial profiling and insensitivity before-----so yes, it could also be that they are dismissing the witnesses that don’t gibe with what THEY want to be the “official story.”
Everybody knows here that I’m as conservative as everybody else here and as Catholic as everybody else-----but I’m not as naive and “team loyal” to disregard the possibility that racism and cover-up by the police may actually be poosible here. Cops are human just like the rest of us and even they fall from great heights like everybody else.
The attorney general investigating will undoubtedly look at all angles of the story----------and she should also consider into the possibility (IF it is true) that the cops in Sanford are racist and they basically helped cover up for GZ.
I just think there was not enough investigating of both sides----particularly of GZ.
That’s what I feel.
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EasterJoy
Guest
According to the Chicago Sun-Times, “The state Department of Juvenile Justice confirmed Monday that Martin does not have a juvenile offender record. The information came after a public records request by The Associated Press.”
I don’t think it can be automatically assumed that Zimmerman committed a crime under Florida law, especially since Florida law seems exceptionally broad with regards to when deadly force may be used in self-defense. I have my issues with whether this is likely to have been a moral act, but even if the act is something I would consider immoral, it could be that this is what Florida law allows its citizens to do. I don’t have enough information to say that Zimmerman ought to be convicted.
Having said that, when you shoot somebody and kill them, it does not seem that the burden of proof should be on the police to prove that it wasn’t self-defense, either. They ought not be bound to believe your account; neither should the belief that you were legally defending yourself mean that you had the right to shoot. If you kill someone, especially if you were both somewhere that the dead person had a right to be, it seems sensible to me that you ought to have to at least convince a judge that you ought to be out on your own recognisance.
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johnnyjones
Guest
Not necessarily. Black folks, especially of a certain age bracket us racial epitaths quite loosely (as well do whites). If a black man was on the phone and said to 911, '"that n…r is getting away, nothing would apply. The words only apply if your a cetain race?
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Interesting…
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I hear you, I don’t know the tape is the factor.
As to witness and cover-ups and all that I do not know.
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Dawnia
Guest
Or it could be as simple as their story doesn’t fit the physical evidence.
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Unless he is like the fictional character Quentin Tarantino played on Pulp Fiction, where he was allowed to use the word “n----r” to Samuel L. Jackson because he happened to be married to a black woman, or unless he has a lot of black friends who allow him to use words like “n----r” and “c–n” in their presence because he is an “honorary black man” and “their brotha,” I don’t see Zimmerman being allowed to use the word “c–n” in any acceptable context.
And yes, there IS a double standard in blacks using that term around each other but whites cannot------but that is a TOTALLY different discussion that is not relevant here and is for another time and place. Plus, it would derail the thread, of course.
And do you see Zimmerman, who is half-hispanic, Btw, using the term (allegedly) “c–n” in a friendly way regarding Martin?
Call me “biased” or “close-minded” here, but I just don’t see GZ using that term (if that was what was said) in anything other than a derogatory manner. And of course, Hispanics can be just as racist as whites and even other blacks towards black people.
My opinion, as always.
Yep.
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Yes, we’ll see…we’ll see what the DA uncovers.Or it could be as simple as their story doesn’t fit the physical evidence.
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L_piperatus
Guest
Yes, but only if the person doing the beating is a child.
Maybe it’s not very nice of me
to be laughing, but I couldn’t help it (and I know maryjk that you were being sarcastic).However as I was flipping the TV channels the other day, right after police released the info that Martin went after Zimmerman as he was going back to his truck, and M decked Z with a single punch to the nose - I tuned in to Nancy Grace’s TV show, and she said Martin had all the right to be p*ssed off at Z following him earlier, and that it is really understandable that M reacted by turning back on Z and decking Z with a punch.
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Dawnia
Guest
Whatever they uncover…I hope it’s soon!Yes, we’ll see…we’ll see what the DA uncovers.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Oh no doubt.
Personally? I won’t lose sleep either way. But IMHO thats what we are looking at here.
I call everyone by there name. And if I don’t know there name I’ll ask them.
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