Trump Steps Up Attacks on Mail Vote, Making False Claims About Fraud

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Ridgerunner said:
With mail-in voting, eventually criminal organizations will determine who governs us. The “political bosses” in the Dem party think they’ll be in control of how people vote with a relatively mild system of rewards and punishments. They might be for awhile, but it won’t last, because criminal organizations are so much better at it.
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So organized crime is going to take control of our elections???

I’ve heard some crazy conspiracy theories lately, but this is a whole new kind of crazy.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
So, there is an elite group for whom voting by mail is OK, but that is OK because this elite group is “small.” Let’s let all the people enjoy the privileges this elite group has.
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No. There are various reasons why people qualify for absentee ballots. People in the armed forces, people whose job takes them away, people in nursing homes. They’re supposed to apply for them in advance, giving a sworn affidavit why they qualify.

I think there are problems with voting machines. Definitely. One serious one being that they count electronically, and anything that is electronic can be manipulated. Harder to manipulate votes when one person from both sides is reviewing each ballot and verifying the count as they go. It costs more, but it’s a good way to do it.
 
Ridgerunner said:
No. There are various reasons why people qualify for absentee ballots. People in the armed forces, people whose job takes them away, people in nursing homes. They’re supposed to apply for them in advance, giving a sworn affidavit why they qualify.
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In other words the elite few who get to skip the line. Look, mail-in balloting has been working well, and now with the more advanced signature matching and computerized cross-checks it is more secure than ever. Certainly as secure as in person voting, which also relies on a signature.
 
Ridgerunner said:
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LeafByNiggle:
Voting by mail is just as secret as voting in person.
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No it isn’t. Absentee balloting isn’t either, but at least it’s fairly limited.
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There is no evidence that today’s systems for verifying mail-in balloting is insecure. And now with the corona virus, and the recession, and with insufficient polling places and staff in poor neighborhoods, there are more people than ever before who will not be able to have their voice heard.
 
It has happened before, which is why we now have secret balloting.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
There is no evidence that today’s systems for verifying mail-in balloting is insecure. And now with the corona virus, and the recession, and with insufficient polling places and staff in poor neighborhoods, there are more people than ever before who will not be able to have their voice heard.
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The weakness in mail in voting is the same as for absentee voting. It’s not secret. People in the clerk’s offices know when the ballots go out. Party workers know as well, and can be there to ensure that one votes “right”, or simply take the ballot himself/herself. Where intimidation is possible, the actual voter might not be the one voting at all. Precinct voting is far more secure, as nobody can go into the booth with a person or look at his ballot after he voted. Dems today really ought to give better thought to why we have secret balloting in secure locations. This country and all first world countries “learned their lesson”. But even the Democrats will learn to regret mail in if it happens. It will be hard to make it secret again once it isn’t.
 
Ridgerunner said:
The weakness in mail in voting is the same as for absentee voting. It’s not secret. People in the clerk’s offices know when the ballots go out. Party workers know as well, and can be there to ensure that one votes “right”, or simply take the ballot himself/herself. Where intimidation is possible, the actual voter might not be the one voting at all.
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Let me get this straight. You are suggesting that Party workers are going to go out to thousands of households and steal their mail in broad daylight from their mailboxes without fear of because caught or exposed for their theft of US mail and then accurately forge signatures on all these ballots and return them, not worrying a bit that maybe more than a few of the intended recipients will not complain to the Secretary of State that they never received their ballots and any subsequent investigation that might follow,…or…you are suggesting that Party workers will go out to thousands of intended recipients, knock on their doors, barge in and threaten to break their thumbs if they don’t vote the way they want, still without worry of being reported to the police and what a subsequent investigation might reveal about that party?

You see, this is the heart of every conspiracy theory. It starts with a narrative that at first sounds plausible, but does not stand up to rigorous objective analysis. The fact is that more damage is being done to the franchise through inadequate polling places that could ever reasonably occur with a well-run mail-in ballot system, which has a long history of working well.
 
It happens right now with absentees. You shouldn’t be so surprised.

But I can see the Democrats think doing away with the secret ballot will help them get more votes. it probably will, but not for very long.
 
I’m in Colorado and we’ve had the option for mail in ballots for primaries and elections for years. If you’d like, you can even take your mail in ballot to the polling place and place it into the box or, like most, just mail it in. No one has ever knocked on my door asking about my mail in ballot. Because of mail ins, the state has been able to decrease the number of polling places but are required to have polling places scattered fairly throughout the city.

If I felt, in any way, that my ballot was being manipulated, I wouldn’t use it. But we do use them and reports are very favorable from all sectors of the city.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
here is no evidence that people who get absentee ballots are being threatened with broken thumbs in any substantial numbers.
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I wasn’t trying to convey that. What I do know is that lots of people who get absentee ballots aren’t really doing the voting.

I get it. You don’t like secret balloting and want to do away with it. I don’t agree, and never will. There is good reason why this country adopted it in the 19th century and every other first world country has it. It’s secret. Back to Tammany we go.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
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LeafByNiggle:
here is no evidence that people who get absentee ballots are being threatened with broken thumbs in any substantial numbers.
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I wasn’t trying to convey that. What I do know is that lots of people who get absentee ballots aren’t really doing the voting.
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How many is “lots”? What I do know is that many people in Milwaukee were left out of the voting process in the last election because they only had 5 working polling stations and super long lines at those. How long did you have to stand in line at the last election?
I get it. You don’t like secret balloting and want to do away with it.
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The US mail is secret.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
How many is “lots”? What I do know is that many people in Milwaukee were left out of the voting process in the last election because they only had 5 working polling stations and super long lines at those. How long did you have to stand in line at the last election?
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I didn’t stand in line at all. I have probably never waited more than five minutes to go through the process. Where I live, I am going to guess there is probably one voting place for every 2,000 people. Out in the country, though, it’s different. Those polling places are probably anywhere from two to five miles apart. They keep up the old rural schoolhouses for it, and that’s about how far apart they are.

Apparently in Milwaukee they need to spend more money on elections before they lose free and fair voting entirely. Maybe they don’t care.

The U.S. mail is secret, but the voting at home isn’t necessarily any more secure than it is in nursing homes, which is not at all.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
Apparently in Milwaukee they need to spend more money on elections before they lose free and fair voting entirely. Maybe they don’t care.
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The people in Milwaukee care very much, but the GOP officials who would allocate funds for polling places apparently didn’t care. You see, this is the thing about objecting to mail-in voting. There is no incentive for those in power now to solve any of the problems it solves. It is almost as if those who object really just don’t want to make it too easy to vote. You might feel differently about mail-in voting if you had to stand in a crowded line line for hours, instead of your no-line polling place.
 
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Trump today described his voting in FLORIDA from the WH.
HOW is it an invalid concern not to risk ones life?
 
LeafByNiggle said:
The people in Milwaukee care very much, but the GOP officials who would allocate funds for polling places apparently didn’t care.
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Milwaukee is hardly a Republican stronghold. If the officials wouldn’t pay for polling places, your own party is to blame. Maybe they do that so people will want mail-in voting so their bosses can do all the voting for the populace. Handier.
 
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