Trump Steps Up Attacks on Mail Vote, Making False Claims About Fraud

[Nepperhan]

A “solution without a problem” because of blindness to the problem in the first place. If you are unwilling to look with acuity to find the problem it is an easy step to insist there is no problem and therefore no solution needs to be offered.

Impartial review of voter impersonation (all that new ID laws can affect) found that it was not a problem. That’s where they found 31claimed instances in 14 years of more than a billion votes cast . That’s not a problem calling for overweening legislation.

" It isn’t that difficult to obtain ID. If someone is incapable of acquiring ID how are they magically “capable” of properly informing themselves regarding the best prospective candidates?"

Two things: First, it was found that the new voter ID laws were INTENDED to affect poor and minority voters. Intended. Then, please don’t imply that those without ID are too ill-informed to vote. Just like the poll tax, those notorious voter literacy tests have been eliminated. Now do you see why the voter ID laws are called the “New Jim Crow”?

Democrats are called elites but Republicans don’t seem to understand that many people did not have the required identification. Its not like a library card when you could come back the nest day. Further, just think: Student ID’s were not acceptable for voter identification in TX but gun cards surely were. What does that tell you?

 

[Maximus1]

Didn’t he set up a 2016 election commission that imploded due to lack of evidence?

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

So we won’t actually investigate to know whether or not voter fraud is occurring, and based upon our lack of evidence

That seems reaonable. Of course it does conflict with " hyper-inflated sense of … pre-cognitive capacity to recognize the truth grounded in psychological attachments to ideological narratives."

There is no conflict. The evidence will show whether or not voter fraud has occurred in the past. The issue is that some claim — like the post prior to yours — that there have been no “genuine” issues with “doing mail” for a decade. Unfortunately, that is an assertion lacking any evidence whatsoever, let alone a comprehensive analysis of mail in ballots.

Ergo, the “psychological attachments” to a certain narrative include how deeply or well the evidence is or is not completely taken into account. That attachment to ideological narratives (pre-cognitive bias) is precisely what filters the evidence selectively, to reinforce an attachment to a viewpoint.

So there is no “conflict” with claiming a “lack of” evidence (i.e., a lack in the willingness to track down and assess all the evidence) is consistent with a psychological attachment to a viewpoint.

I suppose those with an attachment to the “no genuine issues” viewpoint missed the recent arrest of a postal worker for election fraud with regard to mail-in ballots?

West Virginia mail carrier charged with attempted absentee ballot application fraud

Days after West Virginia's secretary of state announced that his office was investigating an absentee ballot fraud scheme connected to the state's mass effort to send absentee ballot applications to all registered voters, a Pendleton County mail carrier is charged with attempted election fraud.

www.whsv.com

Continued…

 

[HarryStotle]

Or that the New York Times declared in 2012 that Fraud [is] Easier Via Mail

Error and Fraud at Issue as Absentee Voting Rises (Published 2012)

Nationwide, mailed ballots now account for nearly 20 percent of votes, yet such ballots are more likely to be compromised, and contested, than those cast in person, statistics show.

www.nytimes.com

From the article…

There are much simpler and more effective alternatives to commit fraud on such a scale, said Heather Gerken, a law professor at Yale.

“You could steal some absentee ballots or stuff a ballot box or bribe an election administrator or fiddle with an electronic voting machine,” she said. That explains, she said, “why all the evidence of stolen elections involves absentee ballots and the like.”

Or that Gerrold Nadler stated in 2004 that, according to his experience, paper ballots (let alone mail-in paper ballots) are “extremely susceptible to fraud.”

Or that a Jimmy Carter and James Baker led Commission on Federal Election fraud in 2005 concluded that…

“Absentee ballots remain the largest source of potential voter fraud.” To be clear, studies have proven that few actual voters are engaged in any kind of fraud at a level that could change the outcome of an election. Instead, election insiders continue to constitute the greater threat.

The Heritage Foundation compiled a recent report on election fraud conviction cases, to prove allegations of widespread voter fraud, but the report uncovered more crimes by elections insiders utilizing absentee ballots to attempt to rig elections.

Source:

https://www.electiondefense.org/vote-by-mail

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

A “solution without a problem” because of blindness to the problem in the first place. If you are unwilling to look with acuity to find the problem it is an easy step to insist there is no problem and therefore no solution needs to be offered.

Impartial review of voter impersonation (all that new ID laws can affect) found that it was not a problem. That’s where they found 31claimed instances in 14 years of more than a billion votes cast . That’s not a problem calling for overweening legislation.

" It isn’t that difficult to obtain ID. If someone is incapable of acquiring ID how are they magically “capable” of properly informing themselves regarding the best prospective candidates?"

Two things: First, it was found that the new voter ID laws were INTENDED to affect poor and minority voters. Intended. Then, please don’t imply that those without ID are too ill-informed to vote. Just like the poll tax, those notorious voter literacy tests have been eliminated. Now do you see why the voter ID laws are called the “New Jim Crow”?

Democrats are called elites but Republicans don’t seem to understand that many people did not have the required identification. Its not like a library card when you could come back the nest day. Further, just think: Student ID’s were not acceptable for voter identification in TX but gun cards surely were. What does that tell you?

Why not cite the “impartial review” then so that it might be assessed on its merits instead of remaining shrouded in the aura of mystery?

Didn’t he set up a 2016 election commission that imploded due to lack of evidence?

Actually, it didn’t implode due to “lack of evidence.” It imploded because a number of Democrats threatened legal action that would tie the commission into an endless series of legal battles that would have been very costly to pursue and wouldn’t have resolved the evidence question for a long time.

 

[Maximus1]

That is implosion.
Implosion means coming up empty and unable to support claims with evidence

 

[HarryStotle]

That is implosion.
Implosion means coming up empty and unable to support claims with evidence

No actually. The evidence wasn’t going to be made available by a number of states which is why it would have ended up in an endless series of court battles over the right of access to the evidence by the commission as challenged by the states.

Kobach called the disbanding of the commission a “tactical change” and said DHS can still pursue its own probe into election fraud in a quicker manner.

"The Democrats, both on and off the commission, made very clear that they were not interested in determining the scope and extent of voter fraud and, indeed, they were trying to stop the commission in its tracks," Kobach said. “The Democrats lost their opportunity, lost their seat at the table, by stonewalling.”

Several secretaries of state, Republican and Democrat, bucked a request for sensitive data by the commission or said they would only provide limited data.

Mississippi Secretary of State Delbert Hosemann, a Republican, suggested the commission “go jump in the Gulf of Mexico.”

Even Kobach said his state would only provide some of the data requested by his commission.

Ergo, your point that the commission was “unable to support claims with evidence” is misleading. They were “unable” to do so, not because the evidence didn’t exist, but because it wasn’t going to be turned over by the vested parties without a long legal battle. Hardly the same thing as claiming that there was no evidence.

 

[Maximus1]

What you are describing is investigation in search of a crime.
Trump, based on nothing, creates a commission and asks them to uncover his wish list. Any luck bumping into something means he can affect turnout of minorities and the poor.
When such an investigation goes nowhere, nothing remains nothing.
It doesn’t become something because of states.
Those stated had good reason

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Trump. He has first-hand knowledge of mail in voter fraud.

Allegedly registered with the Mar a lago address when no one is allowed to live there, and then let someone “harvest” his absentee ballot.

So, in this case, he knows a little about what he’s talking about

I believe I did the same thing you accuse Trump of doing, without any nefarious intent or fraud being perpetrated.

I was in command of a unit with an address that nobody actually “lived” at. My “clerk” would usually open my mail (although I cannot recall if he actually opened my mail-in-voting ballot) and send me what I had to deal with personally (like my mail-in-voting ballot). I would then give outgoing mail back to him to send out.

I would imagine President Trump (and Donald Trump before that) had a similar set-up. That’s not “ballot harvesting.”

Anybody who has ever worked as a party worker during elections know how easy it is to manipulate mail-in voting. With mail-in voting, we’ll never have another honest election again.

And that is the goal of the leaders of the Democrat party.

If mail-in voting is fine for Trump, then it is fine for all Americans.

Consider the President, being the CInC, as being in the military and on military orders precluding him from being at the designated polling place on that specific day.

Still think the same way?

How is the poll worker supposed to verify that it isn’t fake?

Same way a liquor store employee is supposed to, or a Homeland Security agent at the airport, or a landlord screening a tenant, or bartender, or a kwik-shop employee selling cigarettes, or a banker opening an account, or …(etc, etc, ad nauseum).

I’m suggesting that people who think a picture id is the end all to solving the perceived issue really haven’t thought it through.

Nothing will EVER prevent any fraud. However requiring picture ID will prevent widespread fraud.

If you are the local political hack for your party and you want to stuff the ballot box, mail-in voting gives you ample opportunity. You can pay a wayward miscreants to canvass the neighborhood and pull the ballots from people’s mailboxes before they get their mail. Fill them out for your candidate and mail them back. You will never get caught.

If picture IDs are required at polling places then you could do this for a few people in your neighborhood. You could get pictures of a few of them, manufacture false identification, and vote for them.

But how many people could you realistically do this for? 2? 5? 10?

Meanwhile, with vote-by-mail, fraudster’s could easily do thousands at a time.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I personally like either mail in or anyone over a certain age can go anywhere to vote. They have to dip their finger in indelible ink so that they can’t vote again. Yes, I know this is discriminatory to people without arms, but I’m sure that a visible mark could be made on them too.

Mail in has the significant problems I showed before.

I don’t mind the “going anywhere to vote”. We could quickly develop information systems that should allow that.

Dipping their thumbs is a tried-and-true method used by MANY representative governments to ensure that people only vote once, and is at the other end of the spectrum of voting security as the “everyone vote by mail” method.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

And will these election officials be trained to spot fake ID? And why should someone that is working for 12 hours once a year (if that) and getting probably just a token payment be forced to take on that kind of responsibility. Will they have the authority to arrest these people? Fake ID is surely a crime. Will police be at every polling site to take care of anyone trying to commit voter fraud?

They can be trained as much as bouncers, liquor store employees, kwik shop cashiers, etc.

If they suspect fraud, just call the PD (assuming using a fake ID is a crime…it certainly should be).

We’ll never have a fair election again. Never.

Many people don’t care about that.

States already have mail in without any meaningful fraud.

Because you have had to have a reason to mail in your ballot instead of showing up at your assigned polling place.

Remove the requirement for a reason to mail in your ballot, and as RidgeRunner said, we will never have a fair election again.

But some people don’t care about that.

I voted by mail for twenty years, like pretty much everyone in the military. Every state has had vote by mail in varying degrees for around a hundred years, and some states go farther back than that. The idea that it creates some kind of issue is unfounded, and obviously motivated by a desire to have fewer people vote

And most of the times our ballots were never counted unless the number of mail-in-ballots exceeded the difference between the winners and losers.

At that point, which happened extremely rarely, our mail-in-ballots were gone over with a fine-tooth comb by the election judges. If our signatures on our ballots didn’t match our signatures on our registration then our ballots were not counted.

That’s something that can’t happen if we open vote-by-mail to everyone.

 

[HarryStotle]

What you are describing is investigation in search of a crime.

No actually, the Mueller Special Counsel and the Impeachment debacle were investigations “in search of a crime.”

Trump, based on nothing, creates a commission and asks them to uncover his wish list. Any luck bumping into something means he can affect turnout of minorities and the poor.
When such an investigation goes nowhere, nothing remains nothing.
It doesn’t become something because of states.
Those stated had good reason

This is a red herring. You opine “investigation in search of a crime” but completely ignore the instances where committing the crime is made much easier by mail, which amounts to you saying, “Trust me, everything will be fine” (despite all indications to the contrary — chain of custody being virtually impossible, for example — that you refuse to consider. (See my posts 112, 113, and several by other posters following mine.)

 

[Boatswain2PA]

With signature matching used today, voting by mail is just as secure as voting in person. In both cases they check your signature. Voting by mail is not new. It goes back decades. It would be quite a change to suddenly disallow absentee ballots.

I believe there are many ways to “electronically” register to vote anymore (I just helped someone sign up for food-stamps online…and they registered to vote). Therefore no signature matching is available.

Voting by mail DOES go back decades…for people with an allowable reason for not being able to make it to their designated polling place.

NOT the widespread “everyone votes by mail” that is being discussed today.

that is OK because this elite group is “small.” Let’s let all the people enjoy the privileges this elite group has.

I don’t think you would consider enlisted US military as an “elite” political group.

Most of the world understands that protections must be made to ensure one person = one vote. It is common sense which we are losing.

and there actually are more honest people than dishonest.

Absolutely! But it only takes 3-4 dishonest people to canvass a neighborhood to collect ballots from the mailboxes, fill them out, and submit them.

All states have mail in voting.

For people who have sufficient reasons they cannot make it to the designated polling place on election day. Not for everyone who doesn’t want to make it there.

EVERY bloke who has sat in our Oval Office has been investigated numerous times for fraud and dodgy behavior…

But even the Democrats will learn to regret mail in if it happens. It will be hard to make it secret again once it isn’t.

Maybe this will help.

For all you Democrats - The POST OFFICE works for PRESIDENT TRUMP. You are advocating for MAILING IN YOUR ELECTORAL BALLOTS through PRESIDENT TRUMP’S POST OFFICE.

I don’t trust President Trump’s post office to not allow tampering…do you?

Just imagine, if President Trump steals this election (after all, it is HIS post office that will be handling your ballots), then there is a very good chance that HE will know that YOU didn’t vote for him.

Stand by for retaliation!!

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Trump still has overwhelming support among the white supremacists.

All three of them in the country. Well, probably not as the white supremacists also hate Jews, and Trump’s kid married a Jew, so two of the three white supremacists in the country can’t make up their mind about that.

But they probably do hate Obama!

BTW - reading through this thread, it started falling apart about three days ago with the TDS.

It is voter impersonation which was found to have occurred 31 times out of several billion votes cast

Because voter impersonation is difficult to even attempt. Who wants to go through the hassle of attempting to impersonate someone for simply ONE vote. With such low numbers, I would suggest that these voter impersonation attempts were accessory to complete identity fraud where someone had taken the entire life of another person.

But grabbing mailed out ballots by the thousand and returning them…that’s easy!

he bad part about all this is that some folks who are elegible to vote were prevented from doing so by the new ID laws.

Please find me one of these people. I would be glad to assist that person in attaining appropriate identification so they can vote.

 

[Maximus1]

How do you get millions of people to commit felonies in a Conspiracy? This has to happen at a distance. A vote here or there does not matter. Never did. This whole theoretical issue doesn’t make sense I am sorry. I think of all of the Canvassing boards who all have to coordinate with the largest conspiracy in human history.

 

[Maximus1]

That’s the point. Because if you can find the idiot willing to go to jail for years to cast one vote, who can imagine more acting in concert.
It was suggested illegals or felons might do this. They would be the last. They have so much more to loose. AND WHAT TO GAIN? ONE VOTE IN MILLIONS?

 

[sallybutler]

Conspiracy theories do not require logic

 

[PaulinVA]

Maybe this will help.

For all you Democrats - The POST OFFICE works for PRESIDENT TRUMP. You are advocating for MAILING IN YOUR ELECTORAL BALLOTS through PRESIDENT TRUMP’S POST OFFICE.

I don’t trust President Trump’s post office to not allow tampering…do you?

Just imagine, if President Trump steals this election (after all, it is HIS post office that will be handling your ballots), then there is a very good chance that HE will know that YOU didn’t vote for him.

Huh.

That scores about 89% on the cynicism scale. I’m a cynic, and I don’t think I’ve ever hit that high.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Because if you can find the idiot willing to go to jail for years to cast one vote, who can imagine more acting in concert.

No, the point is security. You close your doors at night as a security measure. Can someone break in your house and steal your things? Sure but its relatively rare, just like people can and do commit voter fraud with in-person voting and voter ID, but it’s relatively rare.

But if you were to put your big screen TV in your front yard every night then good chance someone would steal it. This is akin to widespread vote by mail.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Huh.

Was trying to be humerus/facetious with that. Some people think Trump is terrible and appointing his men to positions (like AG) to protect him and ensure he is reelected…wouldnt that include the postmaster general?