Ukraine (cont.)

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Seamus_L said:
Armenia has made some positive comments about the secession of Crimea, which appears to have upset Ukraine asbarez.com/121085/sarkisian-attempts-to-clarify-crimea-comments-for-germany/ But is that any surprise ? Ukraine want’s to join NATO which includes Turkey, and the president of US ally Azerbaijan, Ilham Aliyev has recently made comments about regaining not only Nagorno-Karabakh but also parts of the rest of Armenia.
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From the article:
Ambassador Morell said that what the Germany embassy got from the communication with the Armenian government is the understanding that “he [President Sarkisian] wanted just to stress this right of self-determination of peoples because he was looking to the conflict of Nagorno-Karabakh.”
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“But we have to analyze it. Anyway, it’s not helpful in that situation. That’s for sure,” he added.
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“I think the understanding was, as I said, that, yes, there is this kind of right of self-determination of peoples. Second: but with saying that, we don’t agree to the annexation of Crimea. This is what we got as an understanding from the government,” Morell further explained.
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Russian sources are claiming that the US security firm formerly known as Blackwater is now in Eastern Ukraine voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_25/Ukrainian-leadership-to-hire-US-mercenaries-to-suppress-eastern-regions-source-3828/ the Daily Mail in the UK is also carrying this story dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576490/Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine-Videos-spark-talk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html
If these claims are accurate, I don't see how Russia can avoid taking further action to protect Russian speakers from these people.
 
Seamus_L said:
R
If these claims are accurate, I don’t see how Russia can avoid taking further action to protect Russian speakers from these people.
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Right…

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

From your article: He added: ‘Of course the other possibility is it’s all Russian propaganda.’
 
Obama today:

After recapping the great events which shaped the bloodiest century in human history, Obama warned that:

“I come here and insist we must never take for granted the progress that is won here in Europe and around the world, because the contest of ideas continues,” Obama warned in the most important two minutes of his marathon address in Belgium.

“Russia’s leadership is challenging truths that only a few weeks ago seemed self-evident,” he continued, “that in the 21st Century, the borders of Europe cannot be redrawn with force. That international law matters. That people and nations can make their own decisions about their future.”

… Obama cautioned that the world may yet construe their interests “narrowly.” He observed that the global economy is not dependent on a free Ukraine and that American and Western European borders are not directly threatened by Russia. “But that kind of casual indifference ignores the lessons that are written in the cemeteries of this continent,” Obama counseled. “It would allow the old way of doing things to regain a foot hold in this young century.”

Watch the key moment of Obama’s address below via CBS News:
youtube.com/watch?v=XNMqqf0SP60

Why Ukraine isn’t equal to Iraq
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=038eG9HMJ1A
 
Seamus_L said:
Russian sources are claiming that the US security firm formerly known as Blackwater is now in Eastern Ukraine voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_25/Ukrainian-leadership-to-hire-US-mercenaries-to-suppress-eastern-regions-source-3828/ the Daily Mail in the UK is also carrying this story dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576490/Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine-Videos-spark-talk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html
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                                           If these claims are accurate, I don't see how Russia can avoid taking further action to protect Russian speakers from these people.
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And obviously there are no Russian special forces or intelligence agents or paid “tourist” provocateurs in eastern Ukraine, and it’s all America’s fault… Right. :rolleyes:
 
gilliam said:
Obama today:

After recapping the great events which shaped the bloodiest century in human history, Obama warned that:

“I come here and insist we must never take for granted the progress that is won here in Europe and around the world, because the contest of ideas continues,” Obama warned in the most important two minutes of his marathon address in Belgium.

“Russia’s leadership is challenging truths that only a few weeks ago seemed self-evident,” he continued, “that in the 21st Century, the borders of Europe cannot be redrawn with force. That international law matters. That people and nations can make their own decisions about their future.”

… Obama cautioned that the world may yet construe their interests “narrowly.” He observed that the global economy is not dependent on a free Ukraine and that American and Western European borders are not directly threatened by Russia. “But that kind of casual indifference ignores the lessons that are written in the cemeteries of this continent,” Obama counseled. “It would allow the old way of doing things to regain a foot hold in this young century.”

Watch the key moment of Obama’s address below via CBS News:
youtube.com/watch?v=XNMqqf0SP60

Why Ukraine isn’t equal to Iraq
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=038eG9HMJ1A
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Unless it is the US and NATO wanting to redraw the boundaries, as in Yugoslavia then later Kosovo. Give me a break.
 
Seamus_L said:
While the non-binding resolution declaring Crimea’s independence referendum to be invalid, passed overwhelmingly today, it was good to see little Armenia vote against it reuters.com/article/2014/03/27/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSBREA2Q1GA20140327
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How about the other supporters??
Only 10 other countries stood with Russia in voting against the resolution. The group of 11 states, which the senior Western diplomat described as the “dirty dozen”, included critics of Western nations like Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Nicaragua, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela and Zimbabwe.
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Well, well . . . . . . . :cool:

P.S. Isn’t Armenia going to be joining the Eurasian Union???
 
 
stevegravy said:
Unless it is the US and NATO wanting to redraw the boundaries, as in Yugoslavia then later Kosovo. Give me a break.
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After the death of Tito, the former Yugoslavia was more or less a collection of territories vying for independence (Kosovo included), with the exception of Serbia and Montenegro (which continued to control the other territories via political and military force, hence the wars). Here’s a pretty good history of the break up:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia

I’m not sure why the situation in the former Yugoslavia keeps being brought up, i.e., the U.S. nor NATO annexed any part of that country, nor did they use false pretexts in order to invade it, i.e., the war which caused the deaths of civilians in the former Yugoslavia needed international intervention (there were massive human rights violations).

P.S. Why is there an issue with the way the territories were drawn, i.e., aren’t they reflective of the way they were represented in the former Yugoslavia?

“The SFR Yugoslavia was a conglomeration of eight federated entities, roughly divided along ethnic lines, including six republics—Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia—and two autonomous provinces within Serbia, Vojvodina and Kosovo.”
 
josie_L said:
After the death of Tito, the former Yugoslavia was more or less a collection of territories vying for independence (Kosovo included), with the exception of Serbia and Montenegro (which continued to control the other territories via political and military force, hence the wars). Here’s a pretty good history of the break up:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia

P.S. I’m not sure why the situation in the former Yugoslavia keeps being brought up, i.e., the U.S. nor NATO annexed any part of that country, nor did they use false pretexts in order to invade it, i.e., the war which caused the deaths of civilians in the former Yugoslavia needed international intervention (there were massive human rights violations, i.e., ethnic cleansing).
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Well, all “ethnic cleansing” is not like all other “ethnic cleansing” but there are similarities. Serbia wanted the Albanians out of Kosovo because Kosovo is sacred to Serbian history and identity. So, it tried to “ethnically cleanse” them back to Albania, where they came from before Tito moved them into Kosovo in order to create ethnic discord.

NATO intervened and bombed the thunder out of Serbia, almost started a war with Russia, and handed Kosovo over to Albanians who have turned it into a de facto Islamic/narco state. Not a pretty picture. Regardless, the end result was the persecution of Serbs in Kosovo and “reverse ethnic cleansing” of them.

Russia seized Crimea and is “ethnically cleansing” it of Ukrainians and Tatars. Much less bloodshed. Same sort of deal, though.

So it isn’t as if there are no similarities. Milosevic, Putin…put the two into a bag, shake it and draw one out.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Well, all “ethnic cleansing” is not like all other “ethnic cleansing” but there are similarities. Serbia wanted the Albanians out of Kosovo because Kosovo is sacred to Serbian history and identity. So, it tried to “ethnically cleanse” them back to Albania, where they came from before Tito moved them into Kosovo in order to create ethnic discord.

NATO intervened and bombed the thunder out of Serbia, almost started a war with Russia, and handed Kosovo over to Albanians who have turned it into a de facto Islamic/narco state. Not a pretty picture. Regardless, the end result was the persecution of Serbs in Kosovo and “reverse ethnic cleansing” of them.

Russia seized Crimea and is “ethnically cleansing” it of Ukrainians and Tatars. Much less bloodshed. Same sort of deal, though.

So it isn’t as if there are no similarities. Milosevic, Putin…put the two into a bag, shake it and draw one out.
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Yes, there are similarities, between Milosevic and Putin (blaming the West for the fomentation of revolution/independence, using the false pretense of protecting their own in order to gain territorial control, using propaganda to label their enemies fascists, what I don’t get is why some posters claim that the US and/or NATO redrew boundaries, i.e., this is how the territories were divided in the former Yugoslavia:

“The SFR Yugoslavia was a conglomeration of eight federated entities, roughly divided along ethnic lines, including six republics—Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia—and two autonomous provinces within Serbia, Vojvodina and Kosovo.”

Many were already seeking independence from the former Yugoslavia by the time Tito died, i.e., so was this really a redrawing by the US and/or NATO or simply republics and autonomous provinces seeking what they wanted, i.e., self determination?
 
josie_L said:
Yes, there are similarities, between Milosevic and Putin (blaming the West for the fomentation of revolution/independence, using the false pretense of protecting their own in order to gain territorial control, using propaganda to label their enemies fascists, what I don’t get is why some posters claim that the US and/or NATO redrew boundaries, i.e., this is how the territories were divided in the former Yugoslavia:

“The SFR Yugoslavia was a conglomeration of eight federated entities, roughly divided along ethnic lines, including six republics—Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia—and two autonomous provinces within Serbia, Vojvodina and Kosovo.”

Many were already seeking independence from the former Yugoslavia by the time Tito died, i.e., so was this really a redrawing by the US and/or NATO or simply republics and autonomous provinces seeking what they wanted, i.e., self determination?
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Probably a little of both, but mainly (seems to me) a matter of drawing lines between people who didn’t particularly like each other or want to be part of the same country. They did fight over some pieces of territory, but they were not very large pieces.

One could think, for instance, that Croats and Serbs could somehow get along on anything but a “neighborhood” scale, and then uneasily. But they manifestly can’t.

A minority that really doesn’t quite have a home of its own (despite Kosovo) are the Albanians. Yes, there is an Albania. But Albanians are scattered all over the Balkans, particularly in Macedonia. The Hoxha regime was so awful that escaping into what was then Jugoslavia was like escaping to paradise, awful though the latter was.

It’s interesting that during the Roman Empire, even pretty early on, the best mercenary troops were from what is now Croatia and Serbia. Very fierce. And they haven’t changed all that much since then.
 
I’d like to see a complete list of how countries voted, but haven’t found it yet. I know the abstentions also included Serbia, Iran, and China.
 
I just watched an RT video of the protest by Right Sektor outside the parliament building in Kiev, and what do you think one of the first things I noticed was ? The flag of the European Union flies right over the front doors of the building. Ukraine is being sold down the river to a globalist order.
 
(Reuters) - Russia threatened several Eastern European and Central Asian states with retaliation if they voted in favor of a United Nations General Assembly resolution this week declaring invalid Crimea’s referendum on seceding from Ukraine, U.N. diplomats said.

The disclosures about Russian threats came after Moscow accused Western countries of using “shameless pressure, up to the point of political blackmail and economic threats,” in an attempt to coerce the United Nations’ 193 member states to join it in supporting the non-binding resolution on the Ukraine crisis.

According to interviews with U.N. diplomats, most of whom preferred to speak on condition of anonymity for fear of angering Moscow, the targets of Russian threats included Moldova, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan as well as a number of African countries.
…

According to the diplomats, the Russian threats were not specific. But they said it was clear to the recipients of the warnings not to support the resolution that retaliatory measures could include steps such as expelling migrant workers from Russia, halting natural gas supplies or banning certain imports to Russia to cause economic harm.

reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSBREA2R20O20140328
 
gilliam said:
(Reuters) - Russia threatened several Eastern European and Central Asian states with retaliation if they voted in favor of a United Nations General Assembly resolution this week declaring invalid Crimea’s referendum on seceding from Ukraine, U.N. diplomats said.

The disclosures about Russian threats came after Moscow accused Western countries of using “shameless pressure, up to the point of political blackmail and economic threats,” in an attempt to coerce the United Nations’ 193 member states to join it in supporting the non-binding resolution on the Ukraine crisis.

According to interviews with U.N. diplomats, most of whom preferred to speak on condition of anonymity for fear of angering Moscow, the targets of Russian threats included Moldova, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan as well as a number of African countries.
…

According to the diplomats, the Russian threats were not specific. But they said it was clear to the recipients of the warnings not to support the resolution that retaliatory measures could include steps such as expelling migrant workers from Russia, halting natural gas supplies or banning certain imports to Russia to cause economic harm.

reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSBREA2R20O20140328
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The US has a long history of similar or identical behavior so I’m not exactly shocked that Russia does the same thing. In fact, the United States threatened Russia with economic retaliation if they were to veto a UN Resolution authorizing the war in Iraq back in 2003, we had to threaten and bribe the so-called “coalition of the willing” to go along with us, and those who dissented were punished.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
The US has a long history of similar or identical behavior so I’m not exactly shocked that Russia does the same thing. In fact, the United States threatened Russia with economic retaliation if they were to veto a UN Resolution authorizing the war in Iraq back in 2003, we had to threaten and bribe the so-called “coalition of the willing” to go along with us, and those who dissented were punished.
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So, you support Russia’s actions?
 
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