Ukraine

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Wrong: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Ukraine and spu.in.ua/

The Socialist Party in Ukraine is a direct descendant of Soviet Communism, the very same Soviet Communism that Russia rejected in 1993 when Boris Yeltsin directed Russian tanks to open fire on the Russian Parliament Building where the old Marxist Soviets were making their last stand: youtube.com/watch?v=CnkCu7N-J0M
Umm I was asking about your views on today’s Communist Party of Ukraine, the one headed by Symonenko and allied with Yanukovych. Thanks
 
Umm I was asking about your views on today’s Communist Party of Ukraine, the one headed by Symonenko and allied with Yanukovych. Thanks
I denounce Communism in all its forms wherever it is found.

I just find it extremely interesting that the leader of the Socialist Party in Ukraine (which has direct roots to Soviet Communism), Nikolay Rudkovskiy is the one who authored the impeachment bill against Victor Yanukovych.
 
Whether Voice of Russia or any other “source” is credible depends on the methods and information that they are reporting. One then examines this information and compares it to other sources to determine credibility.

And please, quit acting like Vladimir Putin is some sort of monster or dictator. It gets boring after a while.
I never called Putin a monster, although he is somewhat of a dictator (why don’t you ask the Russian people), moreover, I’m not the one defending the actions of Yanukovych (when pretty much the whole world including his own party members, and most Ukrainians have repudiated him). You have defended him and his government with a fervor I find baffling.
No, actually, you did not.
Yes, I have, i.e., read the replies I’ve posted (the ones where I quoted Kyiv Andrew).
You responded to the interview of Dimitri Babich that I cited by insinuating that because Mr. Babich is a reporter for Voice of Russia, his reporting must be disqualified. Such logic is utterly fallacious and rather childish.
No, it is not a fallacious argument, i.e., it is rather logical to assume that since he reports for a news network that can only regurgitate what is a pro-Putin stance, then he is not going to have a very balanced view of Ukrainian affairs (I hardly think he’s going to be honest about Putin’s involvement). So my advice to you is, come up with a better sources!!!
 
I never called Putin a monster, although he is somewhat of a dictator (why don’t you ask the Russian people…
The Russian people support Putin overwhelmingly. You obviously have never been to Russia.
 
Yes, I have, i.e., read the replies I’ve posted (the ones where I quoted Kyiv Andrew).
This is what you posted:

"This is funny because Vladimir Putin basically two months ago felt not all the press in Russia were pro-Putin enough so he actually overdid Voice of Russia and put a fellow by the name of Kiselyov, who despises Ukraine, in charge of a new Press Station which would be completely loyal to Putin. Since then the TV stations have had to toe Putin’s line even closer.

Adrian Karatnytsky in his article quotes a poll done by legitimate independent pollsters which shows some three/quarters opposition I believe now to Yanukovych in Ukraine or 25% support for Yanukovych. Simply put, Yanukovych knows he stands no chance of winning Ukraine’s next presidential elections unless opponents are arrested and the votes falsified.

Again, though, the protests in Ukraine are not anti-Russian, they are anti-Yanukovych and anti-autocratic. Many if not most Russian speakers in Ukraine are now turning anti-Yanukovych as well.

It’s funny because Yanukovych is following in Putin’s footsteps and has decimated all independent television news (or is trying) in Ukraine so that TVi is gone, 5 kanal barely holds on, and the owner of Ukraine’s most popular TV station has been replaced with a pro-Yanukovych owner whose news, unsurprisingly, claims all these people who have traveled from all the provinces of Ukraine to protest Yanukovych are in the pay of Western secret services, which is laughable because Obama couldn’t care that much about Ukraine after the reset with Russia and the EU only pays lip service. The whole Maidan protest is thoroughly from the ground-up; hence its disorganization."

You never cited this op-ed. Does it belong to Kyiv or to someone else?
No, it is not a fallacious argument, i.e., it is rather logical to assume that since he reports for a news network that can only regurgitate what is a pro-Putin stance, then he is not going to have a very balanced view of Ukrainian affairs (I hardly think he’s going to be honest about Putin’s involvement).
You are attacking the source of the information rather than dealing with the information itself. It is a very common fallacy and predictable tactic.

That’s okay though. If you do not wish to deal with Mr. Babich’s assertion that the “West shields neo-Nazis in Ukraine” then fine, we will move on and let his assertion remained unchallenged with a valid counter argument.
So my advice to you is, come up with a better sources!!!
I already did, and you never responded to them:

youtube.com/watch?v=0X2VqnS0E34

youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

cbsnews.com/news/us-victoria-nuland-wades-into-ukraine-turmoil-over-yanukovich/

theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause
 
I’m not the one defending the actions of Yanukovych (when pretty much the whole world including his own party members, and most Ukrainians have repudiated him). You have defended him and his government with a fervor I find baffling
I refuse to sit back and absorb the Western propaganda that has painted the Ukrainian rioters as a bunch of legitimate protesters, when I can plainly see that they are a bunch of violent, murderous terrorists with no regard for the rule of law.

Secondly, most Ukrainians have not repudiated Yanukovych. Only some Ukrainians have. Yanukovych is widely despised in Ukraine’s west, but has strong support in his native Russia-speaking east, as well as in the south.
 
That’s okay though. If you do not wish to deal with Mr. Babich’s assertion that the “West shields neo-Nazis in Ukraine” then fine, we will move on and let his assertion remained unchallenged with a valid counter argument.
You wrote this to Josie but I’ll answer. A good article on point is provided by professor Timothy Snyder, author of the widely acclaimed work Bloodlands, called “Fascism, Russia, and Ukraine” where he writes in part:

"*The protests in the Maidan, we are told again and again by Russian propaganda and by the Kremlin’s friends in Ukraine, mean the return of National Socialism to Europe. The Russian foreign minister, in Munich, lectured the Germans about their support of people who salute Hitler. The Russian media continually make the claim that the Ukrainians who protest are Nazis. Naturally, it is important to be attentive to the far right in Ukrainian politics and history. It is still a serious presence today, although less important than the far right in France, Austria, or the Netherlands. Yet it is the Ukrainian regime rather than its opponents that resorts to anti-Semitism, instructing its riot police that the opposition is led by Jews. In other words, the Ukrainian government is telling itself that its opponents are Jews and us that its opponents are Nazis.

The strange thing about the claim from Moscow is the political ideology of those who make it. The Eurasian Union is the enemy of the European Union, not just in strategy but in ideology. The European Union is based on a historical lesson: that the wars of the twentieth century were based on false and dangerous ideas, National Socialism and Stalinism, which must be rejected and indeed overcome in a system guaranteeing free markets, free movement of people, and the welfare state. Eurasianism, by contrast, is presented by its advocates as the opposite of liberal democracy.

The Eurasian ideology draws an entirely different lesson from the twentieth century. Founded around 2001 by the Russian political scientist Aleksandr Dugin, it proposes the realization of National Bolshevism. Rather than rejecting totalitarian ideologies, Eurasianism calls upon politicians of the twenty-first century to draw what is useful from both fascism and Stalinism. Dugin’s major work, The Foundations of Geopolitics, published in 1997, follows closely the ideas of Carl Schmitt, the leading Nazi political theorist. Eurasianism is not only the ideological source of the Eurasian Union, it is also the creed of a number of people in the Putin administration, and the moving force of a rather active far-right Russian youth movement. For years Dugin has openly supported the division and colonization of Ukraine.

The point man for Eurasian and Ukrainian policy in the Kremlin is Sergei Glazyev, an economist who like Dugin tends to combine radical nationalism with nostalgia for Bolshevism. He was a member of the Communist Party and a Communist deputy in the Russian parliament before cofounding a far-right party called Rodina, or Motherland. In 2005 some of its deputies signed a petition to the Russian prosecutor general asking that all Jewish organizations be banned from Russia.

Why exactly do people with such views think they can call other people fascists? And why does anyone on the Western left take them seriously? One line of reasoning seems to run like this: the Russians won World War II, and therefore can be trusted to spot Nazis. Much is wrong with this. World War II on the eastern front was fought chiefly in what was then Soviet Ukraine and Soviet Belarus, not in Soviet Russia. Five percent of Russia was occupied by the Germans; all of Ukraine was occupied by the Germans. Apart from the Jews, whose suffering was by far the worst, the main victims of Nazi policies were not Russians but Ukrainians and Belarusians. There was no Russian army fighting in World War II, but rather a Soviet Red Army. Its soldiers were disproportionately Ukrainian, since it took so many losses in Ukraine and recruited from the local population. The army group that liberated Auschwitz was called the First Ukrainian Front.

The other source of purported Eurasian moral legitimacy seems to be this: since the representatives of the Putin regime only very selectively distanced themselves from Stalinism, they are therefore reliable inheritors of Soviet history, and should be seen as the automatic opposite of Nazis, and therefore to be trusted to oppose the far right.

Again, much *is wrong about this. World War II began with an alliance between Hitler and Stalin in 1939."

nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/?insrc=hpss

People like Rogozin, Zhirinovsky, Glazyev form part of Russia’s ruling structure. If Putin is worried about fascism, let him look at who he has appointed, or let him look at the fascist youth groups he has encouraged. Read “Why the Kremlin Aids the Rise of Russia’s Far-Right Hate Groups” in Newsweek
newsweek.com/why-kremlin-aids-rise-russias-far-right-hate-groups-67127

It’s also bewildering because Bernard-Henri Levy gave a rousing public speech in front of the Maidan to wild cheers.

Also read the speech of the Head of the Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities of Ukraine (VAAD Ukraine) in support of the Maidan:
ukma.edu.ua/eng/index.php/news/482-speech-of-josef-zissels-at-euromaidan
 
I refuse to sit back and absorb the Western propaganda that has painted the Ukrainian rioters as a bunch of legitimate protesters, when I can plainly see that they are a bunch of violent, murderous terrorists with no regard for the rule of law.
Are you calling the countless Ukrainian Catholic, Roman Catholic, and Ukrainian Orthodox priests and nuns who have provided spiritual and medical aid to the Maidan protestors also a part of this pack of "violent, murderous terroritsts with no regard for the rule of law’, in your words?
 
Are you calling the countless Ukrainian Catholic, Roman Catholic, and Ukrainian Orthodox priests and nuns who have provided spiritual and medical aid to the Maidan protestors also a part of this pack of "violent, murderous terroritsts with no regard for the rule of law’, in your words?
What a shameful attempt to twist what I said.

The Ukrainian Priests have provided aid to Catholics and Orthodox on both sides.
 
Are you calling the countless Ukrainian Catholic, Roman Catholic, and Ukrainian Orthodox priests and nuns who have provided spiritual and medical aid to the Maidan protestors also a part of this pack of "violent, murderous terroritsts with no regard for the rule of law’, in your words?
No, I believe here he is calling the rifle wielding, axe wielding, firebomb wielding, club wielding, pistol wielding, shield wielding terrorists who seem to be intent on drawing as much blood as possible from the government.
 
For what it is worth…I have family in Ukraine. I am not Ukrainian, like many in Ukraine, but I support Ukraine as the melting pot it is. Yes there are Russians in the East because the Soviets moved them there. They are victims of communism too.

Anyway, my source in Kyiv says the head of parliament left by plane last night.

In terms of the maiden protestors…many have been killed, yes by snipers. Some snipers were caught by police, and the police were forced to fee them.

The first dead are Armenian, Belorussian…all who support Ukraine. There are Germans in Ukraine supporting this struggle for democracy and freedom. The Rusyns support Ukraine. Even to the south the Tartars near Crimea support Ukraine.

They are NOT fighting Russians. Russians are their brothers and sisters…as I said they consider that Ukraine is a melting pot due to the long history of European struggles and the more recent Soviets.

The are protesting the corruption, not Russians, who they love and consider with dignity.

Do you know that even in churches TODAY, Ukrainians must pay the government for a seat on Sunday…that is corruption and not freedom.

They are just a hair away from what I will quote here: (from EWTN website)…and these numbers do not include the approximately 30 million martyrs of the region (laity). There is a reason the Theotokos appeared at Fatima. She asked for prayers…for those in the East who have historically been very devoted to her. Please pray…and do not argue. Archbishop Fulton Sheen made that estimate of the greatest number of martyrs.

“As a boy during the Soviet era, [Pavlo] went to Midnight Mass. Because of this ‘crime,’ he was declared an enemy of the state. Teachers stripped him of everything but his shirt and he had to walk and eventually crawl 5 km home in the middle of winter. He ended up in the hospital for eight months and lost the hearing in one ear — but he survived. He grew up to be a priest with a serious motivation for spreading the Gospel!”

Michael brought back a DVD of Father Pavlo’s account of the Soviet destruction of the Church in Ukraine. It is devastating. You can understand why this priest was willing to suffer as he did while only a young boy. His own grandfather was beaten and buried alive by Soviet soldiers because of his faith. Parishioners defending his parish church were given the choice to deny their faith. When they did not, they were hung by their ears around the church. He says more than 45,000 bishops and priests were murdered: crucified in prison cells, thrown into steam engine boilers, and frozen to death, and most of the churches were blown up. Says Fr. Pavlo: “The Church in Ukraine passed the maturity exam.”

You may think this all happened in the distant past, but Michael said Fr. Pavlo is only 38-years-old.
 
You wrote this to Josie but I’ll answer. A good article on point is provided by professor Timothy Snyder, author of the widely acclaimed work Bloodlands, called “Fascism, Russia, and Ukraine” where he writes in part
A good counter article to your article is:

Ukraine and the Rebirth of Fascism
by ERIC DRAITSER:

"The violence on the streets of Ukraine is far more than an expression of popular anger against a government. Instead, it is merely the latest example of the rise of the most insidious form of fascism that Europe has seen since the fall of the Third Reich.

Recent months have seen regular protests by the Ukrainian political opposition and its supporters – protests ostensibly in response to Ukrainian President Yanukovich’s refusal to sign a trade agreement with the European Union that was seen by many political observers as the first step towards European integration. The protests remained largely peaceful until January 17th when protesters armed with clubs, helmets, and improvised bombs unleashed brutal violence on the police, storming government buildings, beating anyone suspected of pro-government sympathies, and generally wreaking havoc on the streets of Kiev. But who are these violent extremists and what is their ideology?

The political formation is known as “Pravy Sektor” (Right Sector), which is essentially an umbrella organization for a number of ultra-nationalist (read fascist) right wing groups including supporters of the “Svoboda” (Freedom) Party, “Patriots of Ukraine”, “Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self Defense” (UNA-UNSO), and “Trizub”. All of these organizations share a common ideology that is vehemently anti-Russian, anti-immigrant, and anti-Jewish among other things. In addition they share a common reverence for the so called “Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists” led by Stepan Bandera, the infamous Nazi collaborators who actively fought against the Soviet Union and engaged in some of the worst atrocities committed by any side in World War II.

While Ukrainian political forces, opposition and government, continue to negotiate, a very different battle is being waged in the streets. Using intimidation and brute force more typical of Hitler’s “Brownshirts” or Mussolini’s “Blackshirts” than a contemporary political movement, these groups have managed to turn a conflict over economic policy and the political allegiances of the country into an existential struggle for the very survival of the nation that these so called “nationalists” claim to love so dearly. The images of Kiev burning, Lviv streets filled with thugs, and other chilling examples of the chaos in the country, illustrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that the political negotiation with the Maidan (Kiev’s central square and center of the protests) opposition is now no longer the central issue. Rather, it is the question of Ukrainian fascism and whether it is to be supported or rejected.

For its part, the United States has strongly come down on the side of the opposition, regardless of its political character. In early December, members of the US ruling establishment such as John McCain and Victoria Nuland were seen at Maidan lending their support to the protesters. However, as the character of the opposition has become apparent in recent days, the US and Western ruling class and its media machine have done little to condemn the fascist upsurge. Instead, their representatives have met with representatives of Right Sector and deemed them to be “no threat.” In other words, the US and its allies have given their tacit approval for the continuation and proliferation of the violence in the name of their ultimate goal: regime change.

In an attempt to pry Ukraine out of the Russian sphere of influence, the US-EU-NATO alliance has, not for the first time, allied itself with fascists. Of course, for decades, millions in Latin America were disappeared or murdered by fascist paramilitary forces armed and supported by the United States. The mujahideen of Afghanistan, which later transmogrified into Al Qaeda, also extreme ideological reactionaries, were created and financed by the United States for the purposes of destabilizing Russia. And of course, there is the painful reality of Libya and, most recently Syria, where the United States and its allies finance and support extremist jihadis against a government that has refused to align with the US and Israel. There is a disturbing pattern here that has never been lost on keen political observers: the United States always makes common cause with right wing extremists and fascists for geopolitical gain.

The situation in Ukraine is deeply troubling because it represents a political conflagration that could very easily tear the country apart less than 25 years after it gained independence from the Soviet Union. However, there is another equally disturbing aspect to the rise of fascism in that country – it is not alone."
 
What a shameful attempt to twist what I said.

The Ukrainian Priests have provided aid to Catholics and Orthodox on both sides.
I didn’t twist; I asked since you made a blanket condemnation of all the protestors (and there are priests among the Maidan protestors), so don’t twist my words, Thank you very much. There are priests from these churches who belong to the protest movement. Plus if you kindly look at Ukraine’s Religious Information Service you will find that the Heads of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) hold Yanukovych directly responsible for the violence.

God Bless you abundantly
🙂
 
For what it is worth…I have family in Ukraine. I am not Ukrainian, like many in Ukraine, but I support Ukraine as the melting pot it is. Yes there are Russians in the East because the Soviets moved them there. They are victims of communism too.

Anyway, my source in Kyiv says the head of parliament left by plane last night.

In terms of the maiden protestors…many have been killed, yes by snipers. Some snipers were caught by police, and the police were forced to fee them.

The first dead are Armenian, Belorussian…all who support Ukraine. There are Germans in Ukraine supporting this struggle for democracy and freedom. The Rusyns support Ukraine. Even to the south the Tartars near Crimea support Ukraine.

They are NOT fighting Russians. Russians are their brothers and sisters…as I said they consider that Ukraine is a melting pot due to the long history of European struggles and the more recent Soviets.

The are protesting the corruption, not Russians, who they love and consider with dignity.

Do you know that even in churches TODAY, Ukrainians must pay the government for a seat on Sunday…that is corruption and not freedom.

They are just a hair away from what I will quote here: (from EWTN website)…and these numbers do not include the approximately 30 million martyrs of the region (laity). There is a reason the Theotokos appeared at Fatima. She asked for prayers…for those in the East who have historically been very devoted to her. Please pray…and do not argue. Archbishop Fulton Sheen made that estimate of the greatest number of martyrs.

“As a boy during the Soviet era, [Pavlo] went to Midnight Mass. Because of this ‘crime,’ he was declared an enemy of the state. Teachers stripped him of everything but his shirt and he had to walk and eventually crawl 5 km home in the middle of winter. He ended up in the hospital for eight months and lost the hearing in one ear — but he survived. He grew up to be a priest with a serious motivation for spreading the Gospel!”

Michael brought back a DVD of Father Pavlo’s account of the Soviet destruction of the Church in Ukraine. It is devastating. You can understand why this priest was willing to suffer as he did while only a young boy. His own grandfather was beaten and buried alive by Soviet soldiers because of his faith. Parishioners defending his parish church were given the choice to deny their faith. When they did not, they were hung by their ears around the church. He says more than 45,000 bishops and priests were murdered: crucified in prison cells, thrown into steam engine boilers, and frozen to death, and most of the churches were blown up. Says Fr. Pavlo: “The Church in Ukraine passed the maturity exam.”

You may think this all happened in the distant past, but Michael said Fr. Pavlo is only 38-years-old.
Karolinah, thank you very much for this post.
 
I didn’t twist; I asked, so don’t twist my words, Thank you very much.
You knew exactly what you were doing.

It was a shameful attempt.

Apology accepted in advance.
Plus if you kindly look at Ukraine’s Religious Information Service you will find that the Heads of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) hold Yanukovych directly responsible for the violence.
Source and citation please.
 
This is what you posted:

"This is funny because Vladimir Putin basically two months ago felt not all the press in Russia were pro-Putin enough so he actually overdid Voice of Russia and put a fellow by the name of Kiselyov, who despises Ukraine, in charge of a new Press Station which would be completely loyal to Putin. Since then the TV stations have had to toe Putin’s line even closer.

Adrian Karatnytsky in his article quotes a poll done by legitimate independent pollsters which shows some three/quarters opposition I believe now to Yanukovych in Ukraine or 25% support for Yanukovych. Simply put, Yanukovych knows he stands no chance of winning Ukraine’s next presidential elections unless opponents are arrested and the votes falsified.

Again, though, the protests in Ukraine are not anti-Russian, they are anti-Yanukovych and anti-autocratic. Many if not most Russian speakers in Ukraine are now turning anti-Yanukovych as well.

It’s funny because Yanukovych is following in Putin’s footsteps and has decimated all independent television news (or is trying) in Ukraine so that TVi is gone, 5 kanal barely holds on, and the owner of Ukraine’s most popular TV station has been replaced with a pro-Yanukovych owner whose news, unsurprisingly, claims all these people who have traveled from all the provinces of Ukraine to protest Yanukovych are in the pay of Western secret services, which is laughable because Obama couldn’t care that much about Ukraine after the reset with Russia and the EU only pays lip service. The whole Maidan protest is thoroughly from the ground-up; hence its disorganization."

You never cited this op-ed. Does it belong to Kyiv or to someone else?
That belongs to Kyiv as is clearly stated in the left hand corner of my original post, but I was referring to the many other replies wherein I quoted Kyiv, i.e., I have responded to your posts through Kyiv responses. Look further back.
You are attacking the source of the information rather than dealing with the information itself. It is a very common fallacy and predictable tactic.
Again, if you look at the other replies I’ve posted (quoting Kyiv and other sources) I have already dealt with several of Mr. Babich’s assertions (but nevertheless my argument still stands, i.e., he is not a credible source). Moreover, no protest is without fringe elements of radicalism (despite the majority of moderate protestors), but Mr. Babich assumes that because there is a fringe group of neo-Nazis within the protest movement than any support of the protestors means support for the neo-Nazis. Hogwash!! Being that Yanukovych is a thug (who was imprisoned for rape and other crimes), being that he initiated the violence, being that he has silenced his opponents by jailing them, being that he and his family have gained an immense fortune during his presidency. . . etc, then I for one am glad that the U.S. and other Western nations have sided with the protestors (so have most Ukrainians). Yanukovych is the problem, not the U.S., not the fringe neo-Nazis, not the protestors, not the EU . . . . etc. The people are fed up with extreme government corruption (that is infringing on the rights of the Ukrainian people), i.e., these are not people who want radical change they simply want a democracy.
I already did, and you never responded to them:
So you’re admitting that these sources are better than the other pundits you’ve cited, i.e., I did say “come up with better sources” and you responded “I already did”, that presupposes that you believe these sources are better than the ones I’ve critiqued.
 
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