Ukraine

[KyivAndrew]

I’m Catholic and I’m Ukrainian and the article to which you linked is fallacious, and I’m simply amazed that some on CAF (not necessarily you as this is your first post on this thread) take web-sites which announce themselves to be “progressive, tough and liberal” as authoritative on international relations or Ukraine for that matter. I think it’s the anti-Americanism which is attractive ironically to the far-left and the far-right which see a conspiracy in world affairs. Funnily enough, these authors make their living in the West and don’t move to Putin’s Russia which they so admire. I wonder why?

Roberts from that self-described “tough liberal progressive” site which you cite writes:
“These groups, whose roots go back to those who fought for Hitler during World War 2, engaged in words and deeds that sent southern and eastern Ukraine clamoring to be returned to Russia where they resided prior to the 1950s when the Soviet communist party stuck them into Ukraine.”

First off, southern and eastern Ukraine were not part of Russia prior to the 1950s as this conspiracy-minded Paul Roberts writes, and for someone to write that as fact shows them to be ignorant of Ukraine’s history, never mind Ukraine’s WW2 history. The only part of Ukraine which belonged to Soviet Russia was the Crimean peninsula, and the person who transferred its jurisdiction, Khrushchev, was not an ethnic Ukrainian as Roberts writes but Russian. There were parts of Soviet Russia which were ethnically Ukrainian like the Kuban, which may have joined Soviet Ukraine in the 1930s but remained part of Soviet Russia by Stalin’s order. The point is the borders are where they are and Ukraine is 78% ethnically Ukrainian. In 1991, 92% of the citizens of Ukraine (ethnic Ukrainians, ethnic Russians, etc) voted for an independent Ukraine, including the majority of the citizens of Crimea who wished to belong to an independent Ukraine. Ukraine’s borders were then sealed for good internationally in 1994 with Russia, the US, and UK as guarantors.

And the peoples whose historical home was Crimea are not Russians but ethnic Tatars, who make up a substantial minority and who are scared to death of having to become part of Russia. They along with ethnic Ukrainians and maybe a significant amount of ethnic Russians in Crimea wish to remain in Ukraine.

The article then goes on to insult “Washington’s stooges” in Ukraine, the “corrupt Western media”, and praise " Putin’s low-key approach," to Ukraine. Putin has sent in armed Russian military, without insignia, into Crimea which technically and de facto makes them mercenaries. These mercenaries have surrounded Ukrainian army bases and physically prevented wives trying to bring food to their locked-up Ukrainian military husbands personally. They have prevented unarmed observers from even entering Crimea to observe and check on the safety of the people, including Russians, and will probably prevent any observers from ‘observing’ this ‘referendum’ in Crimea conducted under Russian guns.

I note today Crimea’s self-proclaimed Russian leaders received a warm welcome and standing ovation in Moscow today at the hands of the Head of Russia’s Communist Party Zyuganov, and the head of Russia’s ultra-nationalist party Vladimir Zhirinovsky.

Today, Ukrainian TV stations in Crimea were trashed, 1+1 Ukrainian channel has disappeared, and been replaced by completely Putin-controlled Russia TV station which is simply a propaganda outlet. A Bulgarian journalist was beaten up and there are reports of drunken thugs in Crimea beating these people up.

I think it would serve all Catholics on CAF equally to avoid the conspiracy-minded websites which use issues like Ukraine’s fight for the rule of law as a proxy for all their mad anti-Western theories.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church and Kyivan Ukrainian Orthodox Church have come out in support of Ukraine’s new government. If a Catholic poster on CAF wishes to agree with an article which calls Ukraine’s new government as “stooges of Washington” then you might as well write that about the heads of Ukraine’s Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

As a Ukrainian, and with no disrespect just disappointment, I find the amount of posters who buy into wacky conspiracy theories about Ukraine to be thoroughly distressing, and, as far as I can tell, they are coming from the extreme-right and extreme-left.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Ukraine sends out lone Paralympian during opening ceremony

Ukrainian Paralympian Mykhaylo Tkachenko rolled into Sochi’s Fisht Olympic Stadium Friday night.

He was alone, his fellow countrymen – Ukraine sent 23 athletes to the Sochi Paralympics – weren’t behind him.

If they were at the venue, they never emerged from the tunnel.

In a Paralympics marred by violence in his home country, Tkachenko remained stone-faced throughout the athletes’ parade, despite thunderous applause echoing throughout Russia’s Paralympic stadium.

Ukraine’s Paralympic chief said on Friday his team would quit the Winter Paralympic Games if Russia invaded his home country, adding that he hoped the competition would be able to spread peace instead.

“If there is an escalation of the conflict, intervention on the territory of our country, God forbid the worst, we would not be able to stay here, we would go,” Ukraine’s Paralympic chief, Valeriy Sushkevich, told a news conference.

Many countries have cancelled plans to send government ministers and members of royal families to the Games because of events in Crimea

Speaking hours before the opening ceremony, Sushkevich said he had a “calm and reserved” conversation with Putin.

“I repeated my one request, the one and most important request, that before and during (the Games) there will be peace,” he said, adding that the Russian leader answered that he would think about his words.

“The Ukrainian team, as well as hoping for good results, came with colossal hopes for peace, peace in our country, in Europe, in the world. I am sure … that the majority is aware of the colossal danger to peace and the right of every person to have peace in the current situation.”

slam.canoe.ca/Slam/OtherSports/2014/03/07/21519516.html

 

[josie_L]

I’m Catholic and I’m Ukrainian and the article to which you linked is fallacious, and I’m simply amazed that some on CAF (not necessarily you as this is your first post on this thread) take web-sites which announce themselves to be “progressive, tough and liberal” as authoritative on international relations or Ukraine for that matter. I think it’s the anti-Americanism which is attractive ironically to the far-left and the far-right which see a conspiracy in world affairs. Funnily enough, these authors make their living in the West and don’t move to Putin’s Russia which they so admire. I wonder why?

Roberts from that self-described “tough liberal progressive” site which you cite writes:
“These groups, whose roots go back to those who fought for Hitler during World War 2, engaged in words and deeds that sent southern and eastern Ukraine clamoring to be returned to Russia where they resided prior to the 1950s when the Soviet communist party stuck them into Ukraine.”

First off, southern and eastern Ukraine were not part of Russia prior to the 1950s as this conspiracy-minded Paul Roberts writes, and for someone to write that as fact shows them to be ignorant of Ukraine’s history, never mind Ukraine’s WW2 history. The only part of Ukraine which belonged to Soviet Russia was the Crimean peninsula, and the person who transferred its jurisdiction, Khrushchev, was not an ethnic Ukrainian as Roberts writes but Russian. There were parts of Soviet Russia which were ethnically Ukrainian like the Kuban, which may have joined Soviet Ukraine in the 1930s but remained part of Soviet Russia by Stalin’s order. The point is the borders are where they are and Ukraine is 78% ethnically Ukrainian. In 1991, 92% of the citizens of Ukraine (ethnic Ukrainians, ethnic Russians, etc) voted for an independent Ukraine, including the majority of the citizens of Crimea who wished to belong to an independent Ukraine. Ukraine’s borders were then sealed for good internationally in 1994 with Russia, the US, and UK as guarantors.

And the peoples whose historical home was Crimea are not Russians but ethnic Tatars, who make up a substantial minority and who are scared to death of having to become part of Russia. They along with ethnic Ukrainians and maybe a significant amount of ethnic Russians in Crimea wish to remain in Ukraine.

The article then goes on to insult “Washington’s stooges” in Ukraine, the “corrupt Western media”, and praise " Putin’s low-key approach," to Ukraine. Putin has sent in armed Russian military, without insignia, into Crimea which technically and de facto makes them mercenaries. These mercenaries have surrounded Ukrainian army bases and physically prevented wives trying to bring food to their locked-up Ukrainian military husbands personally. They have prevented unarmed observers from even entering Crimea to observe and check on the safety of the people, including Russians, and will probably prevent any observers from ‘observing’ this ‘referendum’ in Crimea conducted under Russian guns.

I note today Crimea’s self-proclaimed Russian leaders received a warm welcome and standing ovation in Moscow today at the hands of the Head of Russia’s Communist Party Zyuganov, and the head of Russia’s ultra-nationalist party Vladimir Zhirinovsky.

Today, Ukrainian TV stations in Crimea were trashed, 1+1 Ukrainian channel has disappeared, and been replaced by completely Putin-controlled Russia TV station which is simply a propaganda outlet. A Bulgarian journalist was beaten up and there are reports of drunken thugs in Crimea beating these people up.

I think it would serve all Catholics on CAF equally to avoid the conspiracy-minded websites which use issues like Ukraine’s fight for the rule of law as a proxy for all their mad anti-Western theories.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church and Kyivan Ukrainian Orthodox Church have come out in support of Ukraine’s new government. If a Catholic poster on CAF wishes to agree with an article which calls Ukraine’s new government as “stooges of Washington” then you might as well write that about the heads of Ukraine’s Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

As a Ukrainian, and with no disrespect just disappointment, I find the amount of posters who buy into wacky conspiracy theories about Ukraine to be thoroughly distressing, and, as far as I can tell, they are coming from the extreme-right and extreme-left.

Andrew, can you please tell me what article you’re referencing (you mentioned Paul Roberts and I know he has been mentioned a time or two)?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Today, Ukrainian TV stations in Crimea were trashed, 1+1 Ukrainian channel has disappeared, and been replaced by completely Putin-controlled Russia TV station which is simply a propaganda outlet. A Bulgarian journalist was beaten up and there are reports of drunken thugs in Crimea beating these people up.

I read a bit about the journalism and television suppression. They are swapping it all over to state ran media. The Russian military slowed down with all the foreign military observers arriving to see the base’s. Course they were refused access. I hear since they are remaining the days activities have slowed.

I read about the Bulgarian journalist also, and the others including CNN. As far as the propaganda, its fairly common yet reaches extremes when Russia is involved, to large degree its because their state media is goal orientated to the state first always.

My prayers are with you,

 

[KyivAndrew]

I read a bit about the journalism and television suppression. They are swapping it all over to state ran media. The Russian military slowed down with all the foreign military observers arriving to see the base’s. Course they were refused access. I hear since they are remaining the days activities have slowed.

I read about the Bulgarian journalist also, and the others including CNN. As far as the propaganda, its fairly common yet reaches extremes when Russia is involved, to large degree its because their state media is goal orientated to the state first always.

My prayers are with you,

Thanks, I’m in Canada right now though several of my friends have gone over to Ukraine to help with medical supplies and treating the wounded and help the country. I’m tempted to go but have familial concerns to stay in Canada for now. The people it really worries to death in Canada are Ukrainians my parents’ age who experienced Soviet tanks and Soviet rule first hand. It’s deja vu to them. As I learned at church last Sunday, a lot of sons and daughters are actually dragging their parents and grandparents away from the TV news because it is way too worrying and emotional for older Ukrainians right now, especially for those in old age who remember rule by the Kremlin. To them, it’s history repeating itself and it’s worrying to the many who have family in Ukraine.

 

[GaryTaylor]

As long as folks are speaking of saints and nationalities

Welcome to the forum, I find the comparison of secular leaders to Saints rather odd is all. There is no connection in my mind of Putin and Sainthood…none.

And the moral equivalence to excuse a tyrants behavior leaves much to be desired. Fact is we know the secular leaders here are not Saints, some have been very moral. other not so much.

Further I find it rather odd to connect the Putin/Russia sainthood and orthodoxy together as if they go together, and during an armed invasion with 30 thousand troops as if God sent Putin.

So no I see no comparison in stating Saints of Russia and then comparing horrendous abortion statistics to show how Russia killed a few less children this year while leading the world historically in this department. And while invading a unarmed state with street gang mentality.

I’m sorry the moral equivalence is simply absurd.

Peace

 

[Cojuanco]

I’m Catholic and I’m Ukrainian and the article to which you linked is fallacious, and I’m simply amazed that some on CAF (not necessarily you as this is your first post on this thread) take web-sites which announce themselves to be “progressive, tough and liberal” as authoritative on international relations or Ukraine for that matter. I think it’s the anti-Americanism which is attractive ironically to the far-left and the far-right which see a conspiracy in world affairs. Funnily enough, these authors make their living in the West and don’t move to Putin’s Russia which they so admire. I wonder why?

Roberts from that self-described “tough liberal progressive” site which you cite writes:
“These groups, whose roots go back to those who fought for Hitler during World War 2, engaged in words and deeds that sent southern and eastern Ukraine clamoring to be returned to Russia where they resided prior to the 1950s when the Soviet communist party stuck them into Ukraine.”

First off, southern and eastern Ukraine were not part of Russia prior to the 1950s as this conspiracy-minded Paul Roberts writes, and for someone to write that as fact shows them to be ignorant of Ukraine’s history, never mind Ukraine’s WW2 history. The only part of Ukraine which belonged to Soviet Russia was the Crimean peninsula, and the person who transferred its jurisdiction, Khrushchev, was not an ethnic Ukrainian as Roberts writes but Russian. There were parts of Soviet Russia which were ethnically Ukrainian like the Kuban, which may have joined Soviet Ukraine in the 1930s but remained part of Soviet Russia by Stalin’s order. The point is the borders are where they are and Ukraine is 78% ethnically Ukrainian. In 1991, 92% of the citizens of Ukraine (ethnic Ukrainians, ethnic Russians, etc) voted for an independent Ukraine, including the majority of the citizens of Crimea who wished to belong to an independent Ukraine. Ukraine’s borders were then sealed for good internationally in 1994 with Russia, the US, and UK as guarantors.

And the peoples whose historical home was Crimea are not Russians but ethnic Tatars, who make up a substantial minority and who are scared to death of having to become part of Russia. They along with ethnic Ukrainians and maybe a significant amount of ethnic Russians in Crimea wish to remain in Ukraine.

The article then goes on to insult “Washington’s stooges” in Ukraine, the “corrupt Western media”, and praise " Putin’s low-key approach," to Ukraine. Putin has sent in armed Russian military, without insignia, into Crimea which technically and de facto makes them mercenaries. These mercenaries have surrounded Ukrainian army bases and physically prevented wives trying to bring food to their locked-up Ukrainian military husbands personally. They have prevented unarmed observers from even entering Crimea to observe and check on the safety of the people, including Russians, and will probably prevent any observers from ‘observing’ this ‘referendum’ in Crimea conducted under Russian guns.

I note today Crimea’s self-proclaimed Russian leaders received a warm welcome and standing ovation in Moscow today at the hands of the Head of Russia’s Communist Party Zyuganov, and the head of Russia’s ultra-nationalist party Vladimir Zhirinovsky.

Today, Ukrainian TV stations in Crimea were trashed, 1+1 Ukrainian channel has disappeared, and been replaced by completely Putin-controlled Russia TV station which is simply a propaganda outlet. A Bulgarian journalist was beaten up and there are reports of drunken thugs in Crimea beating these people up.

I think it would serve all Catholics on CAF equally to avoid the conspiracy-minded websites which use issues like Ukraine’s fight for the rule of law as a proxy for all their mad anti-Western theories.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church and Kyivan Ukrainian Orthodox Church have come out in support of Ukraine’s new government. If a Catholic poster on CAF wishes to agree with an article which calls Ukraine’s new government as “stooges of Washington” then you might as well write that about the heads of Ukraine’s Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

As a Ukrainian, and with no disrespect just disappointment, I find the amount of posters who buy into wacky conspiracy theories about Ukraine to be thoroughly distressing, and, as far as I can tell, they are coming from the extreme-right and extreme-left.

You know why they buy into the pro-Russia propaganda - because Putin appears to them to be an ideal social conservative (what’s a few hundred Catholics if it means victory in the culture war?). Now there are other socially conservative politicians who are not like Putin (an Atienza, a Pacquiao, arguably Pinera) but Russia, of course, is a Great Power. It’s the natural temptation to naively idolize someone you think will save you from the anticlerical measures of this present Government, because he has so much power. The reality is, of course, that Putin’s victory would be disastrous for Holy Mother Church In the Near Abroad (including people like Athanasius Schneider, by the way), but we are often unfortunately blinded by the culture war rhetoric. What makes me balk, though, is how they side even against the Catholic hirearchy on this.

It reminds me of the way some conservative Catholics in America in the 50s and 60s used to idolize Franco and Ngo Dinh Diem. But to give credit where credit is due, at least they weren’t sending their policemen to harass Catholics like the present Russian government. But this, it’s simple blindness and perhaps a faulty frame of reference.

 

[KyivAndrew]

You know why they buy into the pro-Russia propaganda - because Putin appears to them to be an ideal social conservative (what’s a few hundred Catholics if it means victory in the culture war?). Now there are other socially conservative politicians who are not like Putin (an Atienza, a Pacquiao, arguably Pinera) but Russia, of course, is a Great Power. It’s the natural temptation to naively idolize someone you think will save you from the anticlerical measures of this present Government, because he has so much power. The reality is, of course, that Putin’s victory would be disastrous for Holy Mother Church In the Near Abroad (including people like Athanasius Schneider, by the way), but we are often unfortunately blinded by the culture war rhetoric. What makes me balk, though, is how they side even against the Catholic hirearchy on this.

It reminds me of the way some conservative Catholics in America in the 50s and 60s used to idolize Franco and Ngo Dinh Diem. But to give credit where credit is due, at least they weren’t sending their policemen to harass Catholics like the present Russian government. But this, it’s simple blindness and perhaps a faulty frame of reference.

Yes, unfortunately, Cojuanco.

 

[josie_L]

Welcome to the forum, I find the comparison of secular leaders to Saints rather odd is all. There is no connection in my mind of Putin and Sainthood…none.

Further I find it rather odd to connect the Putin/Russia sainthood and orthodoxy together as if they go together, and during an armed invasion with 30 thousand troops as if God sent Putin.

:nope:

So no I see no comparison in stating Saints of Russia and then comparing horrendous abortion statistics to show how Russia killed a few less children this year while leading the world historically in this department. And while invading a unarmed state with street gang mentality.

:sad_yes:

 

[TEPO]

One American Democrat’s perspective…

youtu.be/oKqPwGTjDlY

IOW, America has been working “behind-the-scenes”, which “caused” Russia to move in.

…I don’t believe that. I think Russian apologists make these things up. It’s an attempt to redirect focus away from Russia by demonizing America. It’s a conspiracy theory based not on fact but on deceit. Deceit comes from the devil.

…A violation of the ninth commandment if committed through consent of the will.

 

[GraceSofia]

It isn’t just about despising a government/leader, if it was only about that then I would agree, but this is about a government that was acting in an autocratic manner (the abuses have been catalogued on this thread ad nauseam) rather than democratically.

The situation in the U.S. is nothing compared to what the Ukrainians have had to endure, so please don’t compare the two.

You can get enough truth out of the situation to delineate good from bad, and from what I’ve read about Putin, about Ukrainian/Russian history, about Yanukovych it should be pretty obvious.

Yanukovych was horrible. Talk about violating human rights and plundering the country. You are right-- the situation in the U.S. cannot compare. Many Westerners seem unable to comprehend what it is like to live in a country where the leaders and police do not have to follow the rule of law.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Torture_and_Conditions_in_Detention Notes that things deteriorated under Yanukovych.

Reports of torture and ill-treatment by police persisted, as did unduly long periods of pretrial custody. Of major concern were the inhumane conditions in detention with overcrowded cells, appalling sanitary conditions and the lack of appropriate medical care. During the year numerous group suicide attempts took place in some penal colonies.

Cyber Snake plagues Ukraine networks
An aggressive cyber weapon called Snake has infected dozens of Ukrainian computer networks including government systems in one of the most sophisticated attacks of recent years.

ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/615c29ba-a614-11e3-8a2a-00144feab7de.html#axzz2vKwjifNy

Nasty.

I’m Catholic and I’m Ukrainian …

Putin has sent in armed Russian military, without insignia, into Crimea which technically and de facto makes them mercenaries. These mercenaries have surrounded Ukrainian army bases and physically prevented wives trying to bring food to their locked-up Ukrainian military husbands personally. They have prevented unarmed observers from even entering Crimea to observe and check on the safety of the people, including Russians, and will probably prevent any observers from ‘observing’ this ‘referendum’ in Crimea conducted under Russian guns.

Today, Ukrainian TV stations in Crimea were trashed, 1+1 Ukrainian channel has disappeared, and been replaced by completely Putin-controlled Russia TV station which is simply a propaganda outlet. A Bulgarian journalist was beaten up and there are reports of drunken thugs in Crimea beating these people up.

This is scary stuff. Obviously there is force being used and an attempt to prevent journalists from broadcasting the truth. (And thank you for sharing your insight as a Catholic and Ukrainian, Andrew. I appreciate it).

The Ukrainian Catholic Church and Kyivan Ukrainian Orthodox Church have come out in support of Ukraine’s new government. If a Catholic poster on CAF wishes to agree with an article which calls Ukraine’s new government as “stooges of Washington” then you might as well write that about the heads of Ukraine’s Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

In this thread we have posted a few statements by Catholic priests and bishops, including ones right there in Ukraine. Why some Catholics ignore their words is beyond me.

 

[Tomdstone]

If you can provide a reliable link to Andrus Ansip saying this. I would appreciate it.

Estonian Prime Minister says that there is evidence that the new coalition in Ukraine was behind the snipers who shot unarmed protestors in Kiev. “There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,” Urmas Paet said in a leaked telephone conversation.
breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/03/05/Estonia-Prime-Minister-Evidence-Shows-Maidan-Leaders-Behind-Snipers-in-Kiev
If you go to the recorded conversation @ 2:40 he says that all the new leaders in Ukraine have a dirty past. And Catherine Ashton says: yeah. Then at 4:00, he says that they have beaten a member of Parliament.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Estonian Prime Minister says that there is evidence that the new coalition in Ukraine was behind the snipers who shot unarmed protestors in Kiev. “There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,” Urmas Paet said in a leaked telephone conversation.
breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/03/05/Estonia-Prime-Minister-Evidence-Shows-Maidan-Leaders-Behind-Snipers-in-Kiev
If you go to the recorded conversation @ 2:40 he says that all the new leaders in Ukraine have a dirty past. And Catherine Ashton says: yeah. Then at 4:00, he says that they have beaten a member of Parliament.

Of course they would say this and I have heard others say other things. I don’t understand., how does that justify 30 Thousand troops, media blackouts and journalists beaten at gunpoint in a fetal position on a public street. Putin was so outraged at Kiev that he went to Crimea to act out his frustration on the people their who won’t submit to marshal law.

Conspiracy stories to justify a greater evil and put up barriers where we then separate the good from the evil people. One heck of a theory. If the West is so filthy and evil, how come Putins friends are China and Iran?

 

[Nelka]

I’m a Ukrainian, and with no disrespect just disappointment, I find the amount of posters who buy into wacky conspiracy theories about Ukraine to be thoroughly distressing, and, as far as I can tell, they are coming from the extreme-right and extreme-left.

Most people in the world make their minds up before they understand what is going on.

If you believed some papers it would appear that Russia is behind everything that is going on including comet ison “vanishing”.

What annoys me the most is hypocrisy, the fact that Russia is portrayed as more evil than Satan himself and the west have never even so much as raised their voices at anyone. My country included.

 

[TEPO]

Straw men are like scare crows. Set up to deceive.

 

[pepipop]

Do you not consider Crimea a pond stocked with Russian citizens the way NI was filled with Cromwellian cronies?

The land itself is Russian territory.

Got it in one, that’s my point - that’s just life and if I had been born a protestant in NI, no doubt I would have wished to be ruled by Britain. Take out of the equation that Russia are the ‘horrible bad guys’ and insert ‘economically safer and better the devil you know, guys’ it makes a big difference to the scenario. Yes, Russia under communism was evil, as is all communism, but it’s not communist anymore.

If the majority of Crimeans wish to go with Russia then that is their right to elect to do so. Additionally Crimea within the Ukraine has always had its’ own autonomy, been infiltrated with Russian troops legally, hence they are a special case within Ukraine.

 

[pepipop]

Oh they are opinions. Because you have been posting questionable things as though they were facts. As for your nationality having anything to do with it. I didn’t expect such naivete from someone hailing from the emerald isle. Snap out of it.

ATB

Well what else can my posts be - does anyone have any ‘facts’ about what occurred in Ukraine? The Ukraine riots instigated by EU/USA interference, the people and police shot by snipers on orders of the newly elected government OR Yanukovich hired the snipers, etc… the predictable completely opposite scenarios from the Western and Russian media sources. No-one knows the ‘facts’ that live outwith the Ukraine and that is a FACT. Everyone makes assumptions and those that think the Russians are the big old bad guys will interpret the situation one way, and Russians and people living in the situation will interpret it another.

*I didn’t expect such naivete from someone hailing from the emerald isle. Snap out of it. *

One thing I never do on this forum is to refer to another poster personally, regarding their ‘opinion’ - (aside from this one time) - arrogance beyond belief. Lots of reporters on Irish news talk shows view the situation as EU/USA interference and are sympathetic to the Crimean/Russian position. Needless to say there will be other ‘Irish’ people that think the complete opposite - we do allow freedom of speech and thought in our country.

 

[pepipop]

Is this true or is it not - I don’t know. It is not in any of the mainstream press, however it was an interview carried out with fox news by a US presidential candidate. I would ‘assume’ that as a presidential candidate, if it is totally false Kucinich will come out and say so.

intellihub.com/us-presidential-candidate-dennis-kucinich-says-us-instigated-ukraine-crisis/

*Former congressman says that “U.S. taxpayers’ money was used to knock off an elected government in Ukraine”

By Staff Writer

WASHINGTON (INTELLIHUB) — Tuesday evening while speaking to Fox News host Bill O’Reilly, Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich dropped information on the situation that is rarely heard in the mainstream media.

In the interview, Kucinich revealed that the United States government was guilty of funding some of the violent rebel groups who have overrun the country.

When asked how he would handle the crisis if he were president, Kucinich replied by saying that:

“What I’d do is not have USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy working with U.S. taxpayers’ money to knock off an elected government in Ukraine, which is what they did. I wouldn’t try to force the people of Ukraine into a deal with NATO against their interest or into a deal with the European Union, which is against their economic interest.”

So, it’s the USA’s fault that Putin rolled in? We made them do it?” O’Reilly replied.

“Bill O’Reilly, if you don’t believe in cause and effect, I don’t know what I can do for you,” Kucinich said.*

 

[Peter_Plato]

IOW, America has been working “behind-the-scenes”, which “caused” Russia to move in.

…I don’t believe that. I think Russian apologists make these things up. It’s an attempt to redirect focus away from Russia by demonizing America. It’s a conspiracy theory based not on fact but on deceit. Deceit comes from the devil.

Of course. Now the question is, “Who’s shucking who?”

Is the deceit real or merely imagined?

You aren’t suggesting we merely take everything at face value are you? There is a word for that. Naïveté

 

[pepipop]

An interesting piece in the Irish Times from our Ukrainian community. As is usually the case, there are directly opposing views within the community.

irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/ireland-s-ukrainian-community-laments-tensions-back-home-1.1717181

*Mr Putin has said one of the reasons he has deployed military into the Crimea region is to protect those who speak Russian, but Ms Kononenko argues that Russian and Ukrainian speakers already live in harmony.“When I visited the Maidan half the people there were speaking Russian,” she said. “Most Ukrainians speak both Ukrainian and Russian fluently. Language is definitely not the reason to start a world war.”

A native of Odessa in the south of the country who refused to give his name to protect the safety of his family, disagrees with Ms Kononenko. “Putin definitely made the right decision by placing the military in Crimea,” he said. “It will protect them from a civil war.”

This native Russian speaker said he often felt alienated at home. “This is about the culture and history of Russian speakers in Ukraine,” he said. “They make Russia out to be the enemy and so my family are now afraid. They worry about what will happen if they express their opinions freely.”*