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Dominique1234
Guest
What do you know?! Another biased, liberal media poll! Just like a nun I know who’s pushing the pill and contraception and is going to vote for a moron who kills babies! Pray for these people…
US Catholics back bishops on religious freedom, but still favor Obama, poll shows [CWN]
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jwinch2
Guest
ewtn.com/vote/voting_faq.htm
Very interesting article on the moral obligations of Catholics when it comes to voting.
Very interesting article on the moral obligations of Catholics when it comes to voting.
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maber43
Guest
Liberal Catholics?Wow. I do not get this. Obama is viciously attacking our freedom of religion and yet most Catholics still support him???
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PTL
Guest
Is there anything we can do.? I think the Catholics need to hear from the pulpit. The pew poll shows majority Catholics don’t even know the issue of HHS and the persecution of the Church. Only 70 parishes addressed this in Mass. How could we urge the priests talk about it? It has to be a mandate from bishops. So far the bishops issued letters to the parish but the letter was stopped at the pastors’ desk. If all pastors talk about the issue, things will change.
What could we do to help?
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seekerz
Guest
What can we do? We can evangelize the faithful regarding contraception. How can we expect concern over the right to refuse employees access to contraception if the people expected to show that concern are the same ones hoping their contraceptives will be covered? That’s like asking kids to protest a law preventing teachers from confiscating their cell phones!
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Tampa_Dave
Guest
“[A] slim majority of Catholics prefer President Obama’s stand on issues such as abortion and homosexuality. While 51% of those surveyed preferred Obama’s position on social issues, only 34% preferred the Republican candidate, Mitt Romney.”
Catholics in name only, I would say. How can any true Catholic agree with abortion and gay marriage? You are 100% faithful to the Magisterium and the Holy See or you are not Catholic. I suppose an opinion can be harmless, by itself, but if those opinions translate into Obama votes …
Catholics in name only, I would say. How can any true Catholic agree with abortion and gay marriage? You are 100% faithful to the Magisterium and the Holy See or you are not Catholic. I suppose an opinion can be harmless, by itself, but if those opinions translate into Obama votes …
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ManOnFire
Guest
It just goes to show that exposure to several decades of the leftist media’s values are more powerful than catholic principles. They continue to feed the messages of casual sex, drugs, materialism, and violence, until families are destroyed, weak and dependent, then, after helping to create the problems, they pretend to be heros by giving away other people’s money to help with the problems they helped to create, and all people see is they’re sense of “charity.” If they really cared about charity, they wouldn’t be profiteering by fueling the problems in the first place.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Absolutely. Precisely what a few of us have been saying on a couple of other threads.
This is why President Obama is not a candidate who is even vaguely synonymous with Catholic Social Teaching. His Party’s policies are destructive to the principles of the intact family headed by two heterosexual parents who commit to marriage before reproduction and thus dramatically reduce the likelihood of
~abortion,
~single-parent households,
~unstable coupling,
~economically unstable & poorly educated young parents – ill-equipped to sustain a family’s needs and reliant on government support.
I will note that the public education policies supported by Democrats in general (in the various States which are heavily Democratic and controlled by D legislatures) are also antithetical to Catholic social teaching and to Catholic moral theology. Thus, I think if one lives in a such a State and is Catholic, one should also consider, as a faithful Catholic voter, avoiding the “coattail effect” in a Presidential vote.
It has taken me a long time to see this finally, but it has become increasingly evident in my neck of the woods especially, and despite a tradition of voting Democratic in my own family, I can square very little of the Democratic program with any Catholic teaching: Life issues or social justice.
Given family tradition, I have a lot of affection for what Democrats used to represent. It is also a Party which is attractive to a lot of people due to its vibrancy. But currently it is vibrancy at an unacceptable moral price tag, if one is really looking at all the issues, and how these issues inter-relate.
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seekerz
Guest
Yeah, easier to blame “the leftist media” than to look inwards. 99% of my basic education on moral matters that involve sexuality and reproduction happened decades ago in Catholic school, so where do people get evangelized who didn’t have the advantage of attending one and who don’t watch EWTN? Obama’s the scapegoat of the hour (and the media is the default one), but after he’s gone, we’ll still be left with many Cathloics who go to Church to pray that their live-in boyfriend won’t leave or that they’ll find the money to get their tubal ligation done… who will be to blame for that?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
You mischaracterized ManonFire’s post. He said:
He didn’t “scapegoat” Obama. And ManOnFire is objectively correct. The deterioriation in values has not been overnight but cumulative. However, the instruments most encouraging of that deterioration have been a media in concert with the political Left.
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seekerz
Guest
How did I mischaracterize anything? He says the media has been louder than the Church over the decades - I suggest that the Church has not been loud at all on these matters over the decades.
I disagree with you that the instruments encouraging most of the deterioration has been in the media: it has been in the society which indulges and patronizes that media. There is stuff we pay to watch in our society, that in some countries would get theaters and TV channels closed down by public protests. Why is that, do you think?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I sometimes wonder if you read your own posts. This has been an issue for a long time in give and take with you and others in general. (You ask, “When did I say that? I never said that!”)
Watch carefully, please.
Obama was not mentioned once in his post.
In direct response to ManOnFire (you quoted his post), you said
Again: You mischaracterized his statement. I just demonstrated that to you.
In that, I do agree with you, and strongly, in that they have not been loud enough, in ways they could have been, might have been. However the media will always be louder because it has the money to be so.
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seekerz
Guest
You used to be more fun when you responded to the actual content of my posts rather than making this some kind of personal critique of my writing styles. Anywhoo…
The first basis on which you seemed to claim mischaracterization by me is on the question of things having happened over time. If you were making that claim based on my mention of Obama, then I find it strange because while he DID NOT blame Obama, YOU mentioned Obama’s lack of familiarity with Catholic teaching. Unless there is a rule that I must respond only to a single poster in any one response, I think you making a mountain out of a molehill.
The crux of my argument is evidenced in the lack of basic knowledge of Catholic teaching by Catholics. I’m not talking rejection of teaching - I’m talking simply not knowing what is supposed to be known, either because it was never learned/understood or has been long forgotten. It’s inexcusable that a woman married in the Church should not have the basic understanding that she no longer has to confess her sexual activity because it is sex outside of marriage and not sex in itself that is sinful. And believe me, she has company in that mindset! So let’s be concerned rather that we not mischaracterize the causes of declining morality among Catholics…
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ManOnFire
Guest
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Elizabeth502
Guest
You’re welcome.thanks elizabeth
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ManOnFire
Guest
Obama is only the annointed figurehead for the greater movement, and I didn’t criticize him specifically. I agree with you that the church should have been more outspoken decades ago. So it begs the question: why wasn’t it? The only answer I can figure is that if we continued to have strong sacrificial relationships, the baby boom would have continued and how would we feed everybody? It’s a “good thing” (cough) that all this “progressive” casual sex, hedonism, drugs, materialism, high cost of living, came along over the last few decades because people now use more birth control in order to have a more controlled life, except for the unforeseen rise in selfish individualism (or decrease in sacrificial love for others, however you wish to see it) which causes more men to abandon women and more broken relationships. Ok, I feel a little squirmy by typing that, but that’s the best I can figure. It we had a romantic “return to sacrificial love for others and the beauty of innocence,” there would probably be another baby boom. Then what would we do? If each one of us does our part to be less selfish, then we would have far less of the situations you describe, but hten we’d probably have another baby boom, and then what would we do? Besides, the agnostic progressives have been daring God to come back down and so far…
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timcin
Guest
Well how about the bishops that supposedly voted for Obama? I saw a Michael Voris video this week and he was told by one bishop ‘half if not more of the bishops voted for Obama in 2008’. We got letters set to us from the bishops back in 2008 about how we need to vote against candidates that are pro abortion and half of the bishops vote for a candidate that is pro abortion? No wonder the Catholic Church is in the shape it’s in.
More and more of us feel left down due to this kind of stuff. The bishops have insulated themselves from the regular church goer with their public relations person so you can’t even ask any of them a direct question.
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jwinch2
Guest
I stopped watching Voris a while back because, while he brings up some good things, he also says some things from time to time which are less than completely accurate or which only tell one aspect of a given situation. So, with that in mind, did he provide evidence to support the claim that more than half of the bishops voted for Obama? Please understand, I am not doubting you nor am I disagreeing with your interpretation of the situation. If the situation is as Voris described it, I am just as concerned as you are I promise you.
Peace,
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Ever hear of Cardinal Bernardin? Shortly after the infamous Roe vs Wade Supreme decsion which legalized abortion he gave an address at Fordaham in 1983 reminding Catholics that there were other aspects to the Church’s social teaching besides abortion. To be fair, he did remind that absolute moral evils like abortion must be opposed. But the problems was this speach reverberated throughout liberal Catholics intellectual circles. Those in positions of influence in academia and politics who opposed the Church’s teaching on sexual ethics used this to justify political/social/educational support for like minded individuals of influence as long as they supported the church ( in some way at least) on other social issues. Catholics , at least since the Al Smith era, had been predominately Democratic. These loyalties became entrenched in certain cities and States where Catholics were able to control politics and gave credence that a " loyal Catholic " was a Democrat at the polls. This attitude filtered down through the family structure where " Dad owed his job to the Union. " Thus children were indoctrinated at home to be Democrats. It was the " union way," the family way, the Catholic way.
And if you deviated from that and let be known your suffered hectoring and redicule if not
job loss or ostresization.
But when abortion became legal it was the Democratic Party which defended it and the Republican Party, and individual Republicans, which opposed it. It was the Republican Party which put anti-abortion planks into their platform and the Democrates who didn’t. Futher, the Democratic Party came to support a large number of policies opposed to Catholic moral teaching. But because of a history of Democratic support, most Catholics have found it difficult to support Republicans as opposed to Democrats.
I never found it difficult for myself, because I was involved in anti-abortion activism the week the Roe vs Wade decision came down, eventhough I had voted Democratic up to then. From that date I have voted for only two non Republican candidates ( not the Presidential ticket). That is why I have had a great deal of trouble with " public, " well known Catholics who supported Democrats. To me it was always obvious that there was a hierarchy of evils which must be actively opposed. Abortion and defendening male-female marriage, opposing recognition of homosexual " unions " in any way, euthenasia, etc are other such moral evils which should be a priority for moral, practicing Catholics. Yet many otherwise intelligent, loyal Catholics were unable to make this connection. And often they used Bernadin’s address as a defence and they still do.
The only conclusion I can make is that these people are absolute hypocrites, and charletons and always have been. Their whole Catholic persona was and is a sham.
:hey_bud:
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Yahoo_Thom
Guest
As a “Social Values” Catholic, I heard nothing at the GOP convention that resemble “Christian Values”. The Gospels tell us that we are to strive to be Christ-Like to use Christ as our “EXAMPLE” in life and in our decisions. Jesus, did not have an indifference to the poor, the aged or the disenfranchised, quite to the contrary he spoke for them. Jesus did not lie to his people in order to accomplish the greater good, if your message is good there is no reason to lie. I don’t know what has happened to the Republican Party but they no longer share my Christian Values and I will be voting for President Obama, he may not be perfect, but then NO ONE IS, but he does share my Christian Values. The HOLY SCRIPTURES reference the poor and social justice 300 times, sanctity of life 13 times (Sanctity of life also INCLUDED the life of the MOTHER), In God we Trust is a symbol or our Christian Values not the Value itself, the Republican have become the modern day Pharisees the modern day hypocrites ;
Psalms. 140:12. I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor. (The Social Safety Net, Affordable Care Act, Medicare, Tricare and Medicaid and Food Stamps)
Deuteronomy. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks. (Affordable Care Act, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Unemployment, the Minimum Wage)
Isaiah . 10:1-3. “Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor My people of their rights… Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?” (Income inequality, Supreme Court decisions that work against “WE the PEOPLE”. Wall Street vs. Main Street, Medicare, Social Security, voter suppression, Regulations affecting air, water and food, tax inequality and the ONE TRILLION DOLLAR FAILED WAR on DRUGS)
Luke 6:24. “But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.” (Income inequality, unfair tax rates that only benefit the 1% and Corporate subsidies vs. the Social Safety Net and avarice)
Proverbs 29:7. The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.” (Medicaid, Welfare to work, Unemployment insurance, minimum wage, Affordable Care Act and Food Stamp Program, Dream Act and Student Aid)
Matthew. 6:24. “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money.” (Corporate greed and the avarice of the 1% and Wall Street)
Matthew 19:24 “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Greed, indifference and avarice of the plutocracy)
Timothy 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang. (Re-Defining Christian Values-the Ryan Budget and prosperity doctrine, indifference to the plight of the Middle Class and the Poor, avarice of the 1%)
Matthew 7:1-5“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Judgment of each other and intolerance of our differences, Races and Beliefs)
James 4:11-12 “Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks evil against the law and judges the law, but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? ” (Tolerance and respect for one another, honoring God’s greatest gift the gift of FREE WILL)
Galatians 5:14 “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Tolerance and Respect for each other and the pursuit of happiness)
Proverbs 31:9 “Open your mouth, judge righteously; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” (Medicaid, Education, Food Stamps and the Social Safety net)
Leviticus 19:34"You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God." (Immigration reform, Anti-Immigrant sentiment, the Dream Act)
Ezekiel 47:22 “You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who reside among you and have had children among you. They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel. With you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel." (Immigration reform. the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, The Dream Act)
Proverbs 12:22 “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.” Psalm 101:7”No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.” (“We Built That” misrepresentation by GOP and “Obama is removing the work requirement to welfare, all the speeches at the convention by GOP leaders, blatant lies not good for the Party of so called “Christian Values”)
Psalms. 140:12. I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor. (The Social Safety Net, Affordable Care Act, Medicare, Tricare and Medicaid and Food Stamps)
Deuteronomy. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks. (Affordable Care Act, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Unemployment, the Minimum Wage)
Isaiah . 10:1-3. “Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor My people of their rights… Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?” (Income inequality, Supreme Court decisions that work against “WE the PEOPLE”. Wall Street vs. Main Street, Medicare, Social Security, voter suppression, Regulations affecting air, water and food, tax inequality and the ONE TRILLION DOLLAR FAILED WAR on DRUGS)
Luke 6:24. “But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.” (Income inequality, unfair tax rates that only benefit the 1% and Corporate subsidies vs. the Social Safety Net and avarice)
Proverbs 29:7. The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.” (Medicaid, Welfare to work, Unemployment insurance, minimum wage, Affordable Care Act and Food Stamp Program, Dream Act and Student Aid)
Matthew. 6:24. “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money.” (Corporate greed and the avarice of the 1% and Wall Street)
Matthew 19:24 “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Greed, indifference and avarice of the plutocracy)
Timothy 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang. (Re-Defining Christian Values-the Ryan Budget and prosperity doctrine, indifference to the plight of the Middle Class and the Poor, avarice of the 1%)
Matthew 7:1-5“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Judgment of each other and intolerance of our differences, Races and Beliefs)
James 4:11-12 “Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks evil against the law and judges the law, but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? ” (Tolerance and respect for one another, honoring God’s greatest gift the gift of FREE WILL)
Galatians 5:14 “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Tolerance and Respect for each other and the pursuit of happiness)
Proverbs 31:9 “Open your mouth, judge righteously; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” (Medicaid, Education, Food Stamps and the Social Safety net)
Leviticus 19:34"You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God." (Immigration reform, Anti-Immigrant sentiment, the Dream Act)
Ezekiel 47:22 “You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who reside among you and have had children among you. They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel. With you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel." (Immigration reform. the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, The Dream Act)
Proverbs 12:22 “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.” Psalm 101:7”No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.” (“We Built That” misrepresentation by GOP and “Obama is removing the work requirement to welfare, all the speeches at the convention by GOP leaders, blatant lies not good for the Party of so called “Christian Values”)
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