US Catholics back bishops on religious freedom, but still favor Obama, poll shows [CWN]

[jwinch2]

There is no right to student aid or an education. The costs to education rose dramatically when government got involved under the Carter administration and now greedy union bosses, retired democrat politicians, football players, coaches and the academia elite use government money and high tuition to fund their lofty lifestyle, pensions, pet projects and are turning unis into country clubs.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=706017

Your analysis of why college education costs have gone up is not necessarily accurate. There is an ongoing thread which I encourage you to read and, in an effort to prevent this thread from drifting, discuss the subject there should you desire to do so.

 

[austenbosten]

I read your comments and I truly am saddened. To go through life thinking that that all that are Idle are lazy. Did Jesus Christ walk around with such a cynical attitude toward the world, did he look at all of us sinners and say hey to heck with them…or did he love us and die on the Cross for ALL OF us. You say that Barack Obama is forcing Catholic Organization for give women contraceptives, you know that is not true, even so that has been going on for quite sometime…where do you see the MORAL EQUIVALENCE in the Democrats having “Insurance” companies pay for contraception, and the Republicans cutting Medicare for the Aged, Medicaid for the poor, food stamps for the hungry…sorry there is none…but like I said, it is your immortal soul…There is NO WHERE in the Bible that you can point out, were Jesus told you to chose NO CONTRACEPTION over any other Social issue…but you can try. Good Night to all of you and may GOD BLESS you and keep you safe…

I frankly do not know who you are talking to me or someone else, but nowhere on this thread did I call the Idle lazy. That was someone else quoting Scripture. As for cutting Medicare…hey Obama cut over $700 Billion from Medicare in his PPACA.

Funny all the reasons you list why you are malcontent with Republicans and Romney are things Obama is guilty of.

 

[PTL]

Catholics need to wake up.

A president told Russian leader he would relax his policy on his second term and a President apologized after his ambassador was killed is who weakens America and leads our country to destruction. We are not even talking about abortion, gay marriage, high unemployment rate, rationing seniors to kill the aged, destroying Constitution, and destroying religious freedom.

Wake up, Catholics! How could anyone who believe in Jesus vote for such a person??

 

[He_Man]

Tampa Dave, Respectfully, I have heard Barack Obama Christianity questioned over and over again for political reasons. You don’t know this man personally and I don’t. So I will do the Catholic thing and take him at this word. But one thing I know for sure, your "SUPPOSITION’ about Barack Obama is only that, but it is a VERIFIED FACT that Mitt Romney is NOT Christian, NOT Apostolic and NOT Catholic and this is not a supposition. You need to follow your hearts, like I said it it your soul…I cannot make a SECULAR vote for a NON-CHRISTIAN…

It isn’t a Catholic thing to take anyone at their word. and isn’t even a Christian thing. Jesus said “you will know them by their fruits.” Why are you making up platitudes that’s aren’t in the bible, especially if you are going to be Literal Leroy??

It’s called ignoring reality.

I have an easier time voting for a non-Christian than a poor one who has no issues with causing cardiac arrest in 28 week old babies.

I could frankly care less about either person’s religion. One has a horrific, and at times, evil set of values, and the other doesn’t. What religion they claim becomes somewhat irrelevant, especially when guys like Tiller “the Baby Killer” got shot in Church. How’d you like to share that pew…

 

[He_Man]

I read your comments and I truly am saddened. To go through life thinking that that all that are Idle are lazy. Did Jesus Christ walk around with such a cynical attitude toward the world, did he look at all of us sinners and say hey to heck with them…or did he love us and die on the Cross for ALL OF us. You say that Barack Obama is forcing Catholic Organization for give women contraceptives, you know that is not true, even so that has been going on for quite sometime…where do you see the MORAL EQUIVALENCE in the Democrats having “Insurance” companies pay for contraception, and the Republicans cutting Medicare for the Aged, Medicaid for the poor, food stamps for the hungry…sorry there is none…but like I said, it is your immortal soul…There is NO WHERE in the Bible that you can point out, were Jesus told you to chose NO CONTRACEPTION over any other Social issue…but you can try. Good Night to all of you and may GOD BLESS you and keep you safe…

When did Catholics insist on a literal translation of Scripture? You keep doing that, and you’re still wrong. Stop it.

There’s no reference to Medicare Reform or the Dream Act in the bible. Well whoopty doo. Talk about a waste of an argument.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Your analysis of why college education costs have gone up is not necessarily accurate.

The points I listed were concise and accurate.

There is an ongoing thread which I encourage you to read and, in an effort to prevent this thread from drifting, discuss the subject there should you desire to do so.

So noted.

 

[jwinch2]

The points I listed were concise and accurate.

They were concise.

 

[Yahoo_Thom]

Well I have read all of your comments, as “CONCISE” as they were, they seemed pretty NEGATIVE and AYN RAND LIKE…But good job trying to change minds…after reading your comments I am sure that there will be more President Obama Catholics…I have one think to say about your arguments…“THAT DOG WON’T HUNT”…we know in our hearts what God wants of us…“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” Issiah

And that is why the poll show Catholics favor Obama…Don’t have a heart attack, I am no one, no one at all…You and you alone are responsible for your soul…FREE WILL God’s great gift.

 

[jediliz]

I’ve never read Ayn Rand. But I do know what Jesus taught and he never said to let the government take care of the poor. It has always been the CHURCH that has taken care of the poor…one of the Saints that shares the same name with me, she started what would be considered a hospital…and she brought food to the poor of her country…poor and homeless people that begged from the roads…her husband didn’t want her t do this…she did not rely on other government officials to feed them.

Why trust the government to do what we should do? Again, I ask, why trust the GOVERNMENT to do what WE SHOULD DO?

In my city, we hae a charity called the Matt Talbot Kitchen and Outreach. They help the working poor, homeless and nearly homeless. They providea hot meal and a place to take a shower and other services. We also have a City Mission. Both these programs are staffed by volunteers and were started by Christians, NOT the local government.

I still have yet to see a way that Obama has TRULY helped the poor in this country.

 

[austenbosten]

Well I have read all of your comments, as “CONCISE” as they were, they seemed pretty NEGATIVE and AYN RAND LIKE…But good job trying to change minds…after reading your comments I am sure that there will be more President Obama Catholics…I have one think to say about your arguments…“THAT DOG WON’T HUNT”…we know in our hearts what God wants of us…“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” Issiah

And that is why the poll show Catholics favor Obama…Don’t have a heart attack, I am no one, no one at all…You and you alone are responsible for your soul…FREE WILL God’s great gift.

WHAT’s with the CONSTANT use of ALL-CAPS words? :ehh:

And I’m not trying to change your mind, I’m trying to understand your reasons for supporting Obama, so far I have only received skewed views on Catholicism that are more aligned with a Protestant Liberation theology and imprudent rhetorical accusations of Romney, Ryan and Republicans in general.

 

[Yahoo_Thom]

And “ALL” I have heard from you guys…Are Republicans talking points and those are even more secular than the Protestantism…which by the way are still Apostolic I know that Republicanism has “become” a Religion for many of you…But I again wouldn’t bet my eternal soul on it.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

A hallmark of Catholic Social Doctrine is that there are issues we are free to disagree on, namely the best way to help the poor. We are all required to believe we are supposed to help them, but the method of doing so is one of the areas where we can legitimately disagree. However, there are also some issues we are not free to disagree on such as those which represent intrinsic evil like abortion and contraception or religious freedom.

What we are not free to disagree on is the fact that these things are wrong and evil. However that does not mean we must agree on the exact ways in which we oppose these evils, or the extent we must go to avoid remote material cooperation in them. For example suppose you are part of the street repair crew and your job for today is to repair the sidewalk in front of a drugstore that sells contraceptives. You certainly wouldn’t say that a Catholic is not allowed to participate in something that will enable people to buy contraceptives, would you? Note that we are not taking about disagreeing over whether contraceptives are wrong. We are only talking about how far one must go to prevent their sale. So please be more explicit when you say “issues that represent intrinsic evils” because even some of those issues are the subject of legitimate debate.

 

[jediliz]

I am unaffiliated with any party (I really am…my voter registration says this) and I still see that Democrats promote **evil **such as abortion and same sex marriage. They fight against common sense laws like health and safety standards for abortion clincs at the state level. Many of them refuse to let Planned Parenthood lose state $. Planned Parenthood is the LARGEST Provider of ABORTION in the USA.

Republicans aren’t perfect, but there are many that truly are pro life in their convictions (U.S. Rep. Chris Smith is one…he has brought to reality the truth about China and human rights abuses there).

After a so called “Pro Life” Democrat betrayed pro life residents of MY state, I am wary of my trust in any of them.

This Catholic knows what is at risk here…and is not voting Democrat

 

[austenbosten]

And “ALL” I have heard from you guys…Are Republicans talking points and those are even more secular than the Protestantism…which by the way are still Apostolic I know that Republicanism has “become” a Religion for many of you…But I again wouldn’t bet my eternal soul on it.

I given you direct words from President Obama and news-sourced facts. If you think the Washington Post, Associated Press, WSJ, various US governmental agencies and President Obama himself are “Republican talking-points” then I question your sincerity on this.

Also Republicanism is not my religion and I ask that you tone down your rhetorical attacks on those trying to have a discussion.

 

[Corki]

Tampa Dave, Respectfully, I have heard Barack Obama Christianity questioned over and over again for political reasons. You don’t know this man personally and I don’t. So I will do the Catholic thing and take him at this word. But one thing I know for sure, your "SUPPOSITION’ about Barack Obama is only that, but it is a VERIFIED FACT that Mitt Romney is NOT Christian, NOT Apostolic and NOT Catholic and this is not a supposition. You need to follow your hearts, like I said it it your soul…I cannot make a SECULAR vote for a NON-CHRISTIAN…

It is not a Catholic position to base your vote solely on the professed religious faith of the candidates. Nor is it a Catholic position to vote for a person who has worked for four years against the Church and her work.

Even talking the life issues out of the equation, the current president has gutted the Church’s ability to provide loving adoptive homes to chilren who need them, to give shelter and counseling to victims of human trafficing and to provide health care benefits to her employees in a manner consistent with the Catholic faith.

As for Christianity, we know very little of Obama’s faith life. He may or may not affiliate with an apostolic or trinitarian Christian denomination. He isn’t Catholic either, so it’s not fair you hold that against Romney. And most Church leaders would say that Mormons are Christian in many of their beliefs even if they do not have valid Sacraments.

 

[jwinch2]

What we are not free to disagree on is the fact that these things are wrong and evil. However that does not mean we must agree on the exact ways in which we oppose these evils, or the extent we must go to avoid remote material cooperation in them.

Fair point.

The point I was trying to make, and I was somewhat rushing my answer, is that it is a false equivalence to compare the manner in which someone works to help the poor with abortion or forcing the Church to violate her conscience. One is up for discussion and can be disagree on by Catholics of good will and in good conscience. The others are not.

Thankfully, we have also had multiple bishops in recent months begin to discuss the immorality of racking up debt and spending money that we do not have.

 

[jwinch2]

And “ALL” I have heard from you guys…Are Republicans talking points and those are even more secular than the Protestantism…which by the way are still Apostolic I know that Republicanism has “become” a Religion for many of you…But I again wouldn’t bet my eternal soul on it.

No. Many of us have cited Catholic sources to include multiple statements from Catholic bishops, the Catechism, and Catholic Social doctrine. What you have done is chosen to ignore those things for your own skewed understanding of what the Church teaches.

Read these and then get back to me.

laycatholics.org/2012/08/08/compare-catholicisms-stance-on-current-political-issues-with-your-own/
ewtn.com/vote/voting_faq.htm
acton.org/global/article/john-paul-ii-wojtyla-pope-subsidiarity-interview-r
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I’ve never read Ayn Rand. But I do know what Jesus taught and he never said to let the government take care of the poor. It has always been the CHURCH that has taken care of the poor…one of the Saints that shares the same name with me, she started what would be considered a hospital…and she brought food to the poor of her country…poor and homeless people that begged from the roads…her husband didn’t want her t do this…she did not rely on other government officials to feed them.

Why trust the government to do what we should do? Again, I ask, why trust the GOVERNMENT to do what WE SHOULD DO?

In my city, we hae a charity called the Matt Talbot Kitchen and Outreach. They help the working poor, homeless and nearly homeless. They providea hot meal and a place to take a shower and other services. We also have a City Mission. Both these programs are staffed by volunteers and were started by Christians, NOT the local government.

I still have yet to see a way that Obama has TRULY helped the poor in this country.

Obama loves the poor so much he is trying to create millions more of them.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Fair point.

The point I was trying to make, and I was somewhat rushing my answer, is that it is a false equivalence to compare the manner in which someone works to help the poor with abortion or forcing the Church to violate her conscience. One is up for discussion and can be disagree on by Catholics of good will and in good conscience. The others are not.

Thankfully, we have also had multiple bishops in recent months begin to discuss the immorality of racking up debt and spending money that we do not have.

Spending money that you don’t have (and is therefore not yours to spend) is called THEFT and it is just as mortal a sin as murder.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Spending money that you don’t have (and is therefore not yours to spend) is called THEFT and it is just as mortal a sin as murder.

Under that reasoning it would be theft to get a mortgage on a house. After all, the money that you use to buy the house is not really yours. I’m not saying excessive debt isn’t morally problematic, but please use a better metaphor to explain the problem. Calling it theft is just wrong.