Went undercover to a Baptist church today

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Katholikos:
WHICH Baptist church did you go to? There are more than a couple of hundred varieties, with conflicting and competing beliefs, and they do not get along! No self-respecting Southern Baptist would darken the door at the Free Will Baptist meeting . . . .
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You might appreciate this joke:

*I said ‘Are you a Christian or a Jew?’ He said ‘Christian.’ I said ‘Me too! Protestant or Catholic?’ He said ‘Protestant.’ I said ‘Me too! What franchise?’ He said ‘Baptist.’ I said ‘Me too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?’ He said ‘Northern Baptist.’ I said ‘Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Reform Baptist?’ He said ‘Northern Conservative Baptist.’ I said ‘Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist?’ He said ‘Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist.’ I said ‘Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?’ He said ‘Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region.’ I said ‘Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region of 1850?’ He said ‘Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.’ I said ‘Die heretic!’ *
 
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homer:
Ok. Why do you feel that you need Mary to be a mediator between you and God?
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My sister-in-law (exCatholic turned Baptist) was trying to convince my wife (her sister) how such a waste of time it was to pray to Mary when you could go right to Jesus. She turned to me and said, “If I wanted a favor from you wouldn’t it be more effective if I just went straight to you instead of asking your wife to ask you for me?” Without hesitation, I didn’t even have to think about it, I said, “It would be better if you asked my wife to ask for you. I can’t say no to her. I can say no to you.” - :eek: - That’s all it took. She understood.

Who is Jesus more apt to say yes to? Me, with sin; or Mary, full of grace. I’m glad I have Mary on my side.
 
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badebop:
My sister-in-law (exCatholic turned Baptist) was trying to convince my wife (her sister) how such a waste of time it was to pray to Mary when you could go right to Jesus. She turned to me and said, “If I wanted a favor from you wouldn’t it be more effective if I just went straight to you instead of asking your wife to ask you for me?” Without hesitation, I didn’t even have to think about it, I said, “It would be better if you asked my wife to ask for you. I can’t say no to her. I can say no to you.” - :eek: - That’s all it took. She understood.

Who is Jesus more apt to say yes to? Me, with sin; or Mary, full of grace. I’m glad I have Mary on my side.
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Are you saying that she finally stopped pushing the “no saintly intercession” junk?
 
This is for Homer who raised some very good points about why Catholics pray to Mary instead of going straight to Jesus. It’s a fair question and he shouldn’t get beat up for asking. I am not Catholic (yet) and for years I had a problem accepting the Catholic Mary - I felt that she was somehow “robbing” Jesus of attention. I felt like you, that Satan was using her to get people away from Jesus. But then I looked at the lives of the people who seem most devoted to Mary - those who say the Rosary etc. and I noticed a common thing about them. ALL, without exception try to live a very holy life - one devoted to God. They attend mass more just on Sunday and they also attend adoration (of Jesus). They seem more Christ like than any other people I know. That doesn’t sound like a Satan success story does it? Mary seems to bring people CLOSER to Jesus - not, like you and I both suggested, farther away. If that’s true, that Mary brings people CLOSER to Jesus, wouldn’t it be smarter of Satan to keep people AWAY from her? Wouldn’t it be so like him to convince people that Mary is a bad thing? Something to think about… Blessing to you Homer. Your sister in Christ, CM
 
carol marie:
This is for Homer who raised some very good points about why Catholics pray to Mary instead of going straight to Jesus. It’s a fair question and he shouldn’t get beat up for asking. I am not Catholic (yet) and for years I had a problem accepting the Catholic Mary - I felt that she was somehow “robbing” Jesus of attention. I felt like you, that Satan was using her to get people away from Jesus. But then I looked at the lives of the people who seem most devoted to Mary - those who say the Rosary etc. and I noticed a common thing about them. ALL, without exception try to live a very holy life - one devoted to God. They attend mass more just on Sunday and they also attend adoration (of Jesus). They seem more Christ like than any other people I know. That doesn’t sound like a Satan success story does it? Mary seems to bring people CLOSER to Jesus - not, like you and I both suggested, farther away. If that’s true, that Mary brings people CLOSER to Jesus, wouldn’t it be smarter of Satan to keep people AWAY from her? Wouldn’t it be so like him to convince people that Mary is a bad thing? Something to think about… Blessing to you Homer. Your sister in Christ, CM
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(Ahem), Carol Marie, valiant as your efforts were to defend Homer on this, I’d have to disagree. What he asked was not a fair question in any sense. It was simply an argument in question form. You see, as you may not know, he’s been all over these forums sprinkling anti-Catholicism like fairy dust in every single one of his posts, because, well, he’s an anti-Catholic in a Catholic forum. I simply posted a rebuttal as I always do when I see his posts. It’s sort of a way of cleaning up the mess. 🙂
 
these forums are the only place I can think of where we naturally jump from discussion of Baptist worship to Latin Mass and praying to Mary. If no body minds, I will return to the topic. I frequently attend other Churches, but not for Sunday worship, because even though I know I am also going to Mass, people who see me may not know and get the wrong idea. Several sibs and in-laws have married outside the faith (all had Catholic weddings, married non-catholics, ended up following spouse’s faith) - Baptist, Church of God, Lutheran, Presyterian, Community church (what used to be Congregational, all over the Western Reserve), AME, even a small sectarian arm of black muslims (for wedding of a co-worker), Jewish (reformed, that does not have the same connotation as the word does for Protestants, as in Dutch Reformed, which I attended with co-workers in W. Mich.).

I have been to weddings, youth rallies, Thanksgiving day services, ecumenical peace services, Christian music concerts, holiday concerts, pageants & plays, FCA meetings, confirmations (Lutheran). I have never been inside another worshiping body where I did not understand that God was present in the faith and worship of the community, but I have never experienced the fullness that resides only in the valid sacamental celebration of the Eucharist. Never.

Accompanied a classmate to an Episcopal wedding in San Antonio, pastor was a woman, former Catholic from S. America, who left RC when they would not allow her to marry her fiance, who had to leave the country suddenly, without a lengthy preparation class. Very small Hispanic congregation, mostly former Catholics who felt alienated from RC because of marriage situations. This whole misunderstood area of Catholic teaching must be addressed by the Church if we are to keep from losing more people.
 
quote=Corpus Cristi, Carol Marie, valiant as your efforts were to defend Homer on this, I’d have to disagree. What he asked was not a fair question in any sense. It was simply an argument in question form. You see, as you may not know, he’s been all over these forums sprinkling anti-Catholicism like fairy dust in every single one of his posts, because, well, he’s an anti-Catholic in a Catholic forum. I simply posted a rebuttal as I always do when I see his posts. It’s sort of a way of cleaning up the mess. 🙂
[/quote]

Maybe so but he is only expressing what others feel also (about Mary) especially on this forum (Non Catholic Religions) so even if he doesn’t listen to what I’ve said, maybe somebody else will?
 
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montanaman:
Well, it wasn’t so much “undercover” as it was an exploratory journey. And I blew my cover pretty quickly, too. After one of their MANY intercessory prayers for members of the congregation, I made the sign of the Cross. Lol. You can take the Catholic out of the Church, but you can’t take the Catholocism out of the Catholic.

Or something like that… 🙂
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Very cute blowing your cover like that. My son went to a Baptist school for a year and I was worried about them converting him but as it turned out they asked him to leave due to the questions he asked during his religion period. He had a good understanding of his faith, knew all the answers to their questions and the minister was not happy with the questions he asked.
It was very interesting to say the least.
 
Wow. This thread has overcome death and has been resurrected!

I posted another thread on undercover work elsewhere, too. I went to the McLean Bible Church here in Virginia. I actually liked it–the band on the stage was pretty good, and I hate Christian music.

I’ll probably end up doing more undercover work because the girl who took me to the Baptist “worship service” is now my girlfriend. 😉 She covers area churches for her column in The Washington Times. She’s also very Protestant, but she took to the idea of the rosary pretty quickly.

Homer–for as long as you’ve been lurking and posting on this forum, you should know what Catholics believe about Mary. Someone else made an excellent, truly transcendant, point about us asking for her intercession: People who ask for Mary’s intercession with Christ are almost universally more in love with Christ than “typical” Catholics. I myself pray to Mary all the time lately, and I have NEVER experienced such a closeness and intimacy with her son. If you don’t know by now that we don’t believe she is the intercessor between us and God instead of Christ, then it’s pretty clear you have no interest in the truth. If you were actually reading the responses to your “questions,” you’d know that she’s our mom–even yours. We listen to her. She says to listen to her son. So, try a little participation in the discussions rather than pompous pontification–to use an ironic term for you…lol. 😉
 
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badebop:
My sister-in-law (exCatholic turned Baptist) was trying to convince my wife (her sister) how such a waste of time it was to pray to Mary when you could go right to Jesus. She turned to me and said, “If I wanted a favor from you wouldn’t it be more effective if I just went straight to you instead of asking your wife to ask you for me?” Without hesitation, I didn’t even have to think about it, I said, “It would be better if you asked my wife to ask for you. I can’t say no to her. I can say no to you.” - :eek: - That’s all it took. She understood.

Who is Jesus more apt to say yes to? Me, with sin; or Mary, full of grace. I’m glad I have Mary on my side.
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Maybe your wife can change your mind in some stuff and convince you in others… but please do not compare this to my question! We are talking about JESUS CHRIST. Come on! Jesus is God, and ONLY HE knows the hearts of human beings. He doesn’t need anyone to convince him or to make your prayer more acceptable.

Jesus loves us all in the same way for we are all his children. You may have a hard time accepting this but Jesus loves you the same way he loves Peter, Paul, Mary and all others. It is up to us to accept this love or not.

Going to Jesus through Mary is pure human tradition and unbiblical teaching. This is GOD we are talking about, you don’t need to have connections in order for him to accept your prayers. Only and only Jesus knows the heart of human beings unlike Mary who is now in heaven but cannot hear the prayers of millions of people because she’s only a human being and doesn’t know what is in the hearts of human beings because only God has this power.
 
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homer:
Maybe your wife can change your mind in some stuff and convince you in others… but please do not compare this to my question! We are talking about JESUS CHRIST. Come on! Jesus is God, and ONLY HE knows the hearts of human beings. He doesn’t need anyone to convince him or to make your prayer more acceptable.
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Hey, it was an analogy. I’m sorry if you couldn’t connect the dots.
If supplications aren’t advantages, why do protestants constantly ask each other to pray for them?
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Jesus loves us all in the same way for we are all his children. You may have a hard time accepting this but Jesus loves you the same way he loves Peter, Paul, Mary and all others. It is up to us to accept this love or not.

Why would I have a hard time accepting it? I accept his love AND I accept the love of His Mother.

Going to Jesus through Mary is pure human tradition and unbiblical teaching.

Well, I’m not playing by the rules of sola scriptura. You’re bound by them, but I’m not. I trust in the 2,000 years of guidance by the Church that Jesus Christ established.

This is GOD we are talking about, you don’t need to have connections in order for him to accept your prayers.

**I don’t need connections, but I would be a fool not to accept a higher connection with more influence than myself. **

Only and only Jesus knows the heart of human beings unlike Mary who is now in heaven but cannot hear the prayers of millions of people because she’s only a human being and doesn’t know what is in the hearts of human beings because only God has this power.

Gee, I don’t think this last statement is biblical. How can you make it?
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homer:
I want every Catholic to think about this for a while: satan wants to take people including current believers away from Jesus. If Satan wants to own the soul of a good person, a true believer, than how do you think he will do it? Do you think that he will come and say I am satan and I want you to stop believing in Jesus and follow me. This will be a very dumb thing to do because the believer will probably reject him if he is truely founded on Jesus Christ. So I always think that satan has to use a smart plan to take the believers away from the center of our faith that is Jesus Christ. Not all ways lead to God, only Jesus is the way.
Think about this verse.
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homer:
Why did Jesus bother and came to earth and died to interced for us if Mary and the Saints can do the job of intercession for us?

Why? He came so our sins may be forgiven.

Didn’t Jesus always tell us to come to him and ask him and pray to him?

I don’t recall anywhere in the Bible where Jesus gave the command to pray to him. If he did, I would like to know. Jesus wants your to come to him - why? - for the forgiveness of your sins - how? - through the Holy Mass. THAT’S where you pray to Jesus and the reason you pray to Jesus. Mary despenses the graces needed to follow the path of holiness.

If it is so important to ask Mary to pray for us, wouldn’t Jesus have mentioned it?

If He did, it doesn’t have to be in the Bible. The Bible is your only source of revelation, not mine.

Think about it. Read the Bible and honestly can you tell me that the Catholic Mary is the Mary of the Bible?

The fact that Mary was the Mother of Jesus, the Mother of God, convinces me that she offers a role in our salvation. Since I started praying to Mary, I have been led closer to Jesus. You’re going to have an impossible task convincing me otherwise. Why am I closer to Jesus? Because she is interceding for me. No doubt in my mind.

A final question to every Catholic: do you feel that if you pray through Mary and I prayed directly to Jesus, your prayer will be answered quicker, better… than mine? Do you honestly feel that you have and advantage over me because I simply went directly to Jesus?
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YES!
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badebop said:
**Gee, I don’t think this last statement is biblical. How can you make it? **
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You can discover a lot of things when you let the Word of God be the final authority in your Christian life and not the traditions of man.

Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men. ( 2 Chronicles 6: 30)

badebop said:
** YES! **
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Good for you! You are making God vulnerable and changing his mind due to Mary. Jesus is not the little boy who has to do everything his mother orders him to do like the Catholic church always likes to picture him. Jesus is God and every human being including you and me and Mary and all the Saints is NOTHING compared to him.
 
I went undercover to a B.A.S.I.C. meeting. However I did stick out, I was the only one crossing myself. The leaders were praying over the members saying, “Jesus, Jesus” over and over again, it was scarry and I was frightened away forever. I look back now and laugh, 1 Timothy 2:5, lol!
 
I honestly don’t understand the significance of the pictures. The first one looks more formal with all the priests and the last two look like they must be some sort of youth mass but please explain the point. Is the first one good and the last two bad or are you just showing different types of masses? CM
 
The last two pictures are of Life Teen masses. What is being shown is a liturgical abuse, the most infamous one of Life Teen. Calling the teens into the sactuary as the consecration is taking place. Desecration I call it. The Current Mass could be just as nice is the first picture posted if the clergy would just follow the liturgy and not bring in all this modern rubish.
 
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