J
joe371
Guest
joe371;11399377:
It is a very interesting point you raise here, and I agree there may be some clarification required from our Jewish brothers and sisters
The law of Moses i.e. just the Torah?
What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?
- Status
S
Servant19
Guest
Sure
Lets start with the ancient indigenous religions, such as the native American Indians: - White Buffalo Calf Woman
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Buffalo_Calf_Woman
Zoroaster:
"He shall be the victorious Benefactor (Saoshyant) by name and World-renovator [Astavat-ereta] by name. He is Benefactor because he will benefit the entire physical world; he is World- renovator because he will establish the physical living existence indestructible. He will oppose the evil of the progeny of the biped and withstand the enmity produced by the faithful."— Zoroastrianism- Avesta, Farvardin Yast 13.129
.and…
“When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from the inception of the religion of the Arabian and the overthrow of the kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of My religion, a descendant of the Iranian kings will be raised up as a Prophet”*** (Zoroaster, Dinkird)
Buddha:
***…‘I am not the first Buddha Who came upon this earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a Master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you. He will preach to you His religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal, in spirit and in the letter. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure, such as I now proclaim.’ His disciples will number many thousands, while Mine number many hundreds.’ ***
Hinduism (Krishna):
"Whenever there is decay of righteousness… and there is exaltation of unrighteousness,
then I Myself come forth… for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age." --Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse
Islam:
*** And there shall be a blast on the Trumpet, and all who are in the Heaven and all who are on the earth shall expire, save those whom God shall vouchsafe to live. Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord. ***Qur’an 39:68-69
(there are several others in the Quran, just one chosen off the top of my head)
S
Servant19
Guest
Hi Joe, no problem. I am a Baha’iAt the end of the day where do you hang your hat, in terms of religion/beliefs? If you don’t mind me asking…
J
joe371
Guest
Thanks for the info…For me, as a former agnostic, the apparitions of Fatima had a huge impact on my decision. Your thoughts of Fatima? Just curious. I won’t derail the thread…Sure
Lets start with the ancient indigenous religions, such as the native American Indians: - White Buffalo Calf Woman
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Buffalo_Calf_Woman
Zoroaster:
"He shall be the victorious Benefactor (Saoshyant) by name and World-renovator [Astavat-ereta] by name. He is Benefactor because he will benefit the entire physical world; he is World- renovator because he will establish the physical living existence indestructible. He will oppose the evil of the progeny of the biped and withstand the enmity produced by the faithful."— Zoroastrianism- Avesta, Farvardin Yast 13.129
Buddha:
***…‘I am not the first Buddha Who came upon this earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a Master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you. He will preach to you His religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal, in spirit and in the letter. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure, such as I now proclaim.’ His disciples will number many thousands, while Mine number many hundreds.’ ***
Hinduism (Krishna):
"Whenever there is decay of righteousness… and there is exaltation of unrighteousness,
then I Myself come forth… for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age." --Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse
Islam:
*** And there shall be a blast on the Trumpet, and all who are in the Heaven and all who are on the earth shall expire, save those whom God shall vouchsafe to live. Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord. ***Qur’an 39:68-69
(there are several others in the Quran, just one chosen off the top of my head)
J
joe371
Guest
Oh, OK.Hi Joe, no problem. I am a Baha’i
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Servant19
Guest
My apologies Joe, I did not address this post of yours.
I think Jews have interpreted the verse from Daniel to mean at the time, not at a future date (such as with Jesus’ appearance, as I think you are implying). In either case, the verse you are quoting does also refer to the “time of the end” which was not a reference to Jesus’ time.
What would your understanding of the two Daniel verses quoted be? It certainly is very interesting
D
daler
Guest
Dear friend Joe,
. This is a most important event in the unfoldment of the prophecies of Daniel, which coincide with Revelation as well, and refer specifically to the “time of the end” of the latter days. Daniel gives the 2300 days (which are years) prophecy which begins with the 3rd Decree of under Artaxerxes for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, which occurred in 457 BC.
. As there was no year “0”, 2300 - 457 = 1843 +1 (no year “0”) = 1844 AD, which literally coincides with the year 1260 AH of the Muslim Calendar. Either one helluva coincidence or of great importance. In Daniel and Revelation the year “1260” appears, as does 42 months X 30 days = 1260, and time (360) + times (720) + 1/2 time (180) = 1260. See also 3 1/2 days (years of 360) = 1260.
. Again, these refer to the time of the end of the Prophetic Cycle which began with Adam (Ahdam) and ended with Ahmad (Muhammad) in the year 1260 AH, at which time the Bab (Gate) appeared, announcing the coming of Baha’u’llah (the Glory of God, Who is the aforementioned Michael who was to stand up) in the year 1280 AH (see Daniel), or 1863 AD, which is the year of the public declaration of the MIssion of Baha’u’llah. This year, 1863 AD, also happens to be 1290 years after the public declaration of Muhammad in the year 613 AD, 10 lunar years prior to the Hijra, which began in the year 622 AD.
. Thus, the three dates in relation to the coming of Michael at the time of the end, which are mentioned in Daniel, are 1260, 1280, and 1290, and are all specifically applicable to the coming of the Bab in 1260 = 1844, with 1280 and 1290 both referring to Baha’u’llah. All of these time prophecies refer to events which have occurred in fulfillment of Daniel, whose vision occurred in Susa, the capitol of Elam, which is SW Persia. Jeremiah chp 49 said "The Lord shall set His throne in Elam (Persia), where the Bab announced from Shiraz that He was the awaited Qaim, who is to Baha’u’llah Who John the Baptist was to Jesus the Christ.
. Enormous scholarship of the highest order proving these dates and events have come not only from Millennial scholars such as Wm Miller, but modern ones such as Hushidar Motlagh, his being a 25 year effort beginning with his compiled research in a Book called appropriately: “I Shall Come Again”. Other books dealing with these irrefutable proofs include Some Answered Questions by Abdul Baha and Thief in the Night by William Sears.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Daler, you’ve mentioned all this before in other threads. Perhaps you should refer Joe371 to those threads.
Besides there is no mention of Moses.
MJ
meltzerboy
New member
Christianity does not make that claim. OTOH, I agree with your first proposition. As Judaism states: “The Torah is a tree of life for those who cling to her.” That does not mean we have to follow the Torah perfectly: no one can do so. But at least we can make an effort to live by its moral teachings and values.
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Servant19
Guest
…through which you acquire closer and closer communion with God, yes?
E
eddie_too
Guest
the new commandment given by Jesus is that we love one another as He has loved us.
the communion brought by Jesus did NOT exist before He instituted it at the last supper.
the salvation of souls did not exist until Jesus offered Himself for our salvation. the jews recognized their sinfulness, but they used burnt offerings to try and ameliorate the just judgment they knew was incurred by their sins. through Jesus’ infinite sacrifice we are assured that full reparation has been made in justice for our sins. this is what Jesus taught us.
Jesus started the RCC. no one else did that.
as for my comments about the hundreds of thousands of untranslated pages of bahaullah’s writing, i was just repeating what a bahai had told me. if it is untrue, why do you not say that?
if it is true, how can a person deny that there could be verses that change what the bahai currently understand the teachings of bahaullah to be.
if it is true, who can dispute how any human being could be come familiar enough with hundreds of thousands of pages so as to understand the essential impact of verses and content in one of the hundreds of thousands of pages to that in another of the hundreds of thousands of pages. there must be millions of individual verses written by bahaullah.
you ask a question, then you say, but eddie i do not like your answers, what do they mean. the means for learning more about my answers are available to anyone who wishes to do so. the internet is a wonderful thing.
i recognize that your ignorance of the teachings of Jesus Christ and His RCC are great impediments to your understanding of them. but, you are complicit in your ignorance.
the very fact that you do not know that Jesus instituted the communion of His followers with Himself through the unbloody sacrifice of the altar is sufficient evidence that a mere blog about Jesus Christ, His teachings and His Church is not the method needed for you to gain enough understanding for your comments about Jesus Christ to have any weight beyond that of the meaning of the old adage that, “even a blind sow finds an acorn once in a while”. in other words, it is mere chance if one of your comments reflect accurately the life and teachings of Jesus Christ or His Church.
for example, the Jews were not saved before the time of Christ. there salvation awaits the coming of the Messiah.
so, withdraw in to your poor me, see how i am misunderstood attitude, but realize your hurt feelings are a result of your ignorance. they are not a result of RCCs answering your questions. many of the questions you ask would be more than adequately explained in a good RCIA class.
but, you are not here to learn about the RCC. you are here to try and lead souls away from the RCC.
sometimes i come across as brusque to those whose ignorance cause them to repeatedly accost people who speak the truth to them. but, more is at stake than your feelings. it is possible that the words you speak from your ignorance could create confusion and doubt in people who do not have great knowledge of their faith, but nonetheless have great faith.
so, you may carry on, but if you expect me to allow your ignorance of Jesus Christ and the RCC to go unchallendged, you are going to be greatly disappointed.
you accuse me of attacking you and your faith, but if you look again at my posts, they are filled with questions. if i have bad information about the bahai, you seem able to correct it. why do not you?
the communion brought by Jesus did NOT exist before He instituted it at the last supper.
the salvation of souls did not exist until Jesus offered Himself for our salvation. the jews recognized their sinfulness, but they used burnt offerings to try and ameliorate the just judgment they knew was incurred by their sins. through Jesus’ infinite sacrifice we are assured that full reparation has been made in justice for our sins. this is what Jesus taught us.
Jesus started the RCC. no one else did that.
as for my comments about the hundreds of thousands of untranslated pages of bahaullah’s writing, i was just repeating what a bahai had told me. if it is untrue, why do you not say that?
if it is true, how can a person deny that there could be verses that change what the bahai currently understand the teachings of bahaullah to be.
if it is true, who can dispute how any human being could be come familiar enough with hundreds of thousands of pages so as to understand the essential impact of verses and content in one of the hundreds of thousands of pages to that in another of the hundreds of thousands of pages. there must be millions of individual verses written by bahaullah.
you ask a question, then you say, but eddie i do not like your answers, what do they mean. the means for learning more about my answers are available to anyone who wishes to do so. the internet is a wonderful thing.
i recognize that your ignorance of the teachings of Jesus Christ and His RCC are great impediments to your understanding of them. but, you are complicit in your ignorance.
the very fact that you do not know that Jesus instituted the communion of His followers with Himself through the unbloody sacrifice of the altar is sufficient evidence that a mere blog about Jesus Christ, His teachings and His Church is not the method needed for you to gain enough understanding for your comments about Jesus Christ to have any weight beyond that of the meaning of the old adage that, “even a blind sow finds an acorn once in a while”. in other words, it is mere chance if one of your comments reflect accurately the life and teachings of Jesus Christ or His Church.
for example, the Jews were not saved before the time of Christ. there salvation awaits the coming of the Messiah.
so, withdraw in to your poor me, see how i am misunderstood attitude, but realize your hurt feelings are a result of your ignorance. they are not a result of RCCs answering your questions. many of the questions you ask would be more than adequately explained in a good RCIA class.
but, you are not here to learn about the RCC. you are here to try and lead souls away from the RCC.
sometimes i come across as brusque to those whose ignorance cause them to repeatedly accost people who speak the truth to them. but, more is at stake than your feelings. it is possible that the words you speak from your ignorance could create confusion and doubt in people who do not have great knowledge of their faith, but nonetheless have great faith.
so, you may carry on, but if you expect me to allow your ignorance of Jesus Christ and the RCC to go unchallendged, you are going to be greatly disappointed.
you accuse me of attacking you and your faith, but if you look again at my posts, they are filled with questions. if i have bad information about the bahai, you seem able to correct it. why do not you?
S
SteveVH
Guest
The question I asked had to do with your understanding of what inspired Scripture means. You didn’t answer that. The thread topic, of which you are the OP, has to do with Moses and Jesus. Instead, as I suspected, you immediately make this about Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i faith. Like I said, this is nothing more than Baha’i thread number VI in sheep’s clothing. You aren’t here to discuss what Jesus brought to the world that Moses did not. You are here to promote your religion.
meltzerboy
New member
Yes, and those who “improve” the most in the sense of shedding their sinful behaviors may progress further with respect to communion with G-d. IOW, one can become holier in the eyes of G-d by being more of a sinner to begin with. Note that a few of the concepts I’m speaking about, such as “communion” and “sinner,” are somewhat foreign to Judaism, but I think you can get the idea.
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rinnie
Guest
Well the 7 Sacraments for sure.
Probally the most important he died for our sins so we could have access to heaven. Because of his death, we gained etenal life;
J
joe371
Guest
“The time of the end”…when “everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered” - sounds pretty definitive - and like a future event, from the perspective of Daniel.My apologies Joe, I did not address this post of yours.
I think Jews have interpreted the verse from Daniel to mean at the time, not at a future date (such as with Jesus’ appearance, as I think you are implying). In either case, the verse you are quoting does also refer to the “time of the end” which was not a reference to Jesus’ time.
What would your understanding of the two Daniel verses quoted be? It certainly is very interesting
“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
J
joe371
Guest
I suppose we all have an understanding based on logic, reasoning and most importantly, our presuppositions as we approach a particular topic. In the end, either Jesus is who he says he is or he is not…and there is no definitive way to know one way or the other…Free will…My apologies Joe, I did not address this post of yours.
What would your understanding of the two Daniel verses quoted be? It certainly is very interesting
It seems, for you, the Bahá’í faith makes the most sense…Why?
**
**
J
joe371
Guest
For me personally, the miraculous events of Fatima provided the proof I needed to believe in Jesus. Nothing comes even remotely close to that event, in terms of proof, regarding all religions. Correct me if I am wrong? However, I am open to the idea that Baha’u’llah is God’s representative, if you can back up that claim? Something like Fatima…?
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Daler you keep posting your so called proof, yet it seems as entirely arbitrary as that guy who said the world was going to end on October last year. Numerology is absurd but I would respond to servant who seems to want to dismiss Paul and the New testament in general.
I should say that I see no actual correction to what the new testament says in your responce servant. You seem to grant for all intention purposes Paul and the apostles said and did these things about Christ but instead of correcting my reading of these writings you seemingly want to dismiss them, suggest they were mistaken, although you are not using the words directly? Can the new testament be trusted or not? Is it not sacred scripture by which there is authority for it? Would you walk up to the apostles and say “I don’t think your wrong but your mistaken!”?
Servant, it seems in the end you make Paul out to less realiable, less trustworthy solely because he is not Jesus, despite him saying the things he was preaching was the very gospel of Christ. My question is, do you accept the entirety of the new testament? It is evident you want to affirm paul and yet distance yourself from him and the author of hebrews. They both taught Jesus was greater than moses because Jesus laid the foundation, jesus is the one mediator between God and man, whose name is the only name by which the forgiveness of sins is given. So what do you mean by “You think a man like that would not find it a noble endeavour to magnify Jesus to be greater than Moses?”
Are you saying he was wrong to do this? Were the apostles wrong to pray in the name of Jesus? Baptise in the name of Jesus? Perform miracles in the name of Jesus? In fact, which israelite before them ever did any of these things except by the name of God? In Christianity, the apostles recognised Jesus wasn’t just another run of the mill prophet, and these were the men whom Christ entrusted his chruch to, he said to Peter to take care of the sheep and Peter declares Paul’s words on equal authority to that of the Old testament.
So yes, Christians do assert CHrist is only one by which forgiveness of sins comes from (because we believe in the New testament unlike bahai or anyone else) and we also testify to the realit of original sin which we need not even prove. Experience proves that this world is not inherently good, that we are born with a tempermant predisposed towards evil, our bodies defying us. We don’t need all religions to tell us of the reality of original sin, we had the apostles to tell us “by a woman death entered into the world.” It is not a man made doctrine, it is a right doctrine and if you think you are born into this world perfect with no disposition towards evil, then you are denying the very evil you commit each and every day.
But in your hypothetical whom are you accusing? The Desciples? Or the early christians? Clarify that for me. Who corrupted Christianity because it could not have been the early church whom were only doing the same things the apostles did.
As for works, they have their place in Christinaity, but ultimately merely doing good things is not enough, faith is how the process begins without which nothing else materilizes.
Now, answer absolutely certaintly. Don’t be vague, don’t be mystical and unclear. Is Mirza Hussain literally God the father? Is he in your view the all powerful lord from which everything that exists? Is he your creator? Do you worship him? Do you say the “our father” prayer to whom? Clarify this for me because you bahai are deliberately vague and do this on purpose to deceive.
I should say that I see no actual correction to what the new testament says in your responce servant. You seem to grant for all intention purposes Paul and the apostles said and did these things about Christ but instead of correcting my reading of these writings you seemingly want to dismiss them, suggest they were mistaken, although you are not using the words directly? Can the new testament be trusted or not? Is it not sacred scripture by which there is authority for it? Would you walk up to the apostles and say “I don’t think your wrong but your mistaken!”?
Servant, it seems in the end you make Paul out to less realiable, less trustworthy solely because he is not Jesus, despite him saying the things he was preaching was the very gospel of Christ. My question is, do you accept the entirety of the new testament? It is evident you want to affirm paul and yet distance yourself from him and the author of hebrews. They both taught Jesus was greater than moses because Jesus laid the foundation, jesus is the one mediator between God and man, whose name is the only name by which the forgiveness of sins is given. So what do you mean by “You think a man like that would not find it a noble endeavour to magnify Jesus to be greater than Moses?”
Are you saying he was wrong to do this? Were the apostles wrong to pray in the name of Jesus? Baptise in the name of Jesus? Perform miracles in the name of Jesus? In fact, which israelite before them ever did any of these things except by the name of God? In Christianity, the apostles recognised Jesus wasn’t just another run of the mill prophet, and these were the men whom Christ entrusted his chruch to, he said to Peter to take care of the sheep and Peter declares Paul’s words on equal authority to that of the Old testament.
So yes, Christians do assert CHrist is only one by which forgiveness of sins comes from (because we believe in the New testament unlike bahai or anyone else) and we also testify to the realit of original sin which we need not even prove. Experience proves that this world is not inherently good, that we are born with a tempermant predisposed towards evil, our bodies defying us. We don’t need all religions to tell us of the reality of original sin, we had the apostles to tell us “by a woman death entered into the world.” It is not a man made doctrine, it is a right doctrine and if you think you are born into this world perfect with no disposition towards evil, then you are denying the very evil you commit each and every day.
But in your hypothetical whom are you accusing? The Desciples? Or the early christians? Clarify that for me. Who corrupted Christianity because it could not have been the early church whom were only doing the same things the apostles did.
As for works, they have their place in Christinaity, but ultimately merely doing good things is not enough, faith is how the process begins without which nothing else materilizes.
Now, answer absolutely certaintly. Don’t be vague, don’t be mystical and unclear. Is Mirza Hussain literally God the father? Is he in your view the all powerful lord from which everything that exists? Is he your creator? Do you worship him? Do you say the “our father” prayer to whom? Clarify this for me because you bahai are deliberately vague and do this on purpose to deceive.
E
eddie_too
Guest
Jesus said that, “no man born of woman is greater than John the Baptist”. that would include moses and noah, as well as daniel and david.
then Jesus said, 'but the least born into the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist". Paul, being born in to the kingdom of heaven through his faith and baptism in Jesus, would, according to Jesus, be greater than moses, noah, david, daniel, john the baptist and any one else you might want to bring up.
but, i repeat, servant’s ignorance of Jesus Christ and the RCC is what leads us to all of this repitition. for evidence, consider servant’s ignorance of the new commandment Jesus gave to mankind.
it is both essential and fundamental to understanding Jesus, His teachings and the RCC, to know and understand the new commandment given mankind by Jesus.
the fact that someone wants to challenge the RCC’s teachings about Jesus, salvation and redemption through Jesus’ sacrificial acts while simultaneously being ignorant of the new comandment given us by Jesus explains much of what servant and the other bahai post.
we should not expect those laboring under the weight of profound ignorance to be able to interpret and understand that of what they exhibit profound ignorance.
then Jesus said, 'but the least born into the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist". Paul, being born in to the kingdom of heaven through his faith and baptism in Jesus, would, according to Jesus, be greater than moses, noah, david, daniel, john the baptist and any one else you might want to bring up.
but, i repeat, servant’s ignorance of Jesus Christ and the RCC is what leads us to all of this repitition. for evidence, consider servant’s ignorance of the new commandment Jesus gave to mankind.
it is both essential and fundamental to understanding Jesus, His teachings and the RCC, to know and understand the new commandment given mankind by Jesus.
the fact that someone wants to challenge the RCC’s teachings about Jesus, salvation and redemption through Jesus’ sacrificial acts while simultaneously being ignorant of the new comandment given us by Jesus explains much of what servant and the other bahai post.
we should not expect those laboring under the weight of profound ignorance to be able to interpret and understand that of what they exhibit profound ignorance.
D
daler
Guest
Joe,
. I am uncertain whether, on this particular thread, it is possible to discuss this topic. There had been a thread where this subject had been discussed at length which is no longer available.
. As to the vision of the children at Fatima, it is indeed powerful, and for those who were immediately affected by it or tended to be influenced by it, their faith is strengthened, which is a always good. This is an individual thing, not particularly convincing to skeptics, etc, or where others have similar visions in the context of their own perspectives and systems of belief, or personal frames of reference.
. I do not say this to downplay this vision at all, but rather that like what has been studied in near death experiences, for example, people who report seeing a “Being of Light” in human form tend to identify that Figure with Moses, Jesus, Buddha, or Muhammad, according to their beliefs and expectations, or interpretations of such visions which come from the context of their own cultural understanding.
. Note: As Martin has objected to references of “Who is Michael” from the perspective of my own Faith experience, or elaborating on prophecies which some of us believe to have been “unsealed”, and which shed light on these questions, I feel I must defer out of respect to his request to abstain on this thread. I would be happy to dialogue via PM if you wish, but don’t want to engage in uninvited discussions, also out of respect.
. Thank you for your courtesy.
.
- Status