What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[eddie_too]

Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit for our sanctification, inspiration and guidance.

 

[eddie_too]

i was not the one who first said bahaullah wrote hundreds of thousands of pages, most of which had not been translated from their original languages.

is it a falsehood to ask how a bahai, not familiar with the language of origin, could know what those hundreds of thousands of pages contain?

is it a falsehood to ask why a person would believe that the miniscule (relative to the whole) amount of writings that have been translated contain all of the understanding necessary for knowing exactly what bahaullah might have revealed in the hundreds of thousands of untranslated pages?

is it a falsehood to ponder exactly how many human beings have studied all of the hundreds of thousands of pages written by bahaullah?

is it a falsehood to wonder why a person would accept as absolute truth a small minority of another person’s writings while being ignorant of the vast majority of the same person’s writings?

is it true or not (what another bahai wrote) that bahaullah wrote hundreds of thousands of pages and that the vast majority of those writings have not been translated from the original?

is it unreasonable to question whether any human being can be intimately familiar with the contents of hundreds of thousands of pages written by someone else.

the new testament is not even a thousand pages, but tens of thousands of men and women have written hundreds of thousands of words about the contents, the meanings and the intepretations of the new testament.

bahaullah wrote hundreds of thousands of pages and, to the best of my knowledge, no one has even read them all, nor has anyone tried to relate all of bahaullah’s writings one to the thousands of others.

these are not falsehoods. mostly they are just questions related to the reasonableness and reliability of the bahai faith?

it seems bahai do not want to engage in intellectual discussion with those who disagree with them, but prefer to charge non-bahai with charges of deceit and ill will.

answer the questions. i answered your question, although not exhaustively, about what did Jesus bring that moses did not bring.

 

[SteveVH]

In which case, He would, according to the Jews, fail in His Messianic claim…

This is the post to which you were responding:

Originally Posted by SteveVH
You need to learn the difference between “humility” and “humiliation”. Jesus revealed a God who loves us so much that he humbled himself, voluntarily, to become man and die so that we might have eternal life. That is who the true God is. Your view is that of the Muslims, who, while believing in one God, have never known God because they have never know Jesus Christ. Our God does not rule us from far away. He has become present to us and invites us into a true union with him.

How does Jesus’ humility fail his Messianic claim? If you mean that the Jews were wrong in their understanding of who the Messiah is and what his mission was suppose to be and were not expecting a God who loved us so much that he would give his very life for us, then we would agree.

“Amazing Love, how can it be that you my King would die for me?”

(do you see how hard it is to explain a “spiritual” truth to people who are so attached to thinking that the spirit world is pretty much a physical world??)

And to whom would you be referring? Do you not believe in a physical heaven right here on this earth in which we are ruled by men under a one world government?

 

[eddie_too]

servant asks what Jesus brought that moses did not bring.

i answered with a half dozen factual gifts that Jesus gave us that moses did not and could not give us.

but servant offers, i conclude what Jesus brought was a spirit of love for all.

while that is accurate, since the Holy Spirit is love, it is hardly and acknowledgement of the many other, some quite concrete, gifts that Jesus gave us.

should i be insulted or upset that servant completely ignored all of the other examples of the new gifts Jesus gave mankind? no. why should i be upset?

servant clearly has his own agenda and asking questions, ignoring most answers and summarizing his own answer for us is clearly servant’s game.

this thread does not seem ever to have been out the question posed by servant.

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus gave us His life for our salvation.

 

[willie_duggan]

Jesus destroyed Death and restored Life.

Moses, and other Old Testament prophets worthy people all, foretold of the Restoration of this Covenant.

Jesus is the Convenant.

 

[Hypnotoad]

And your justification for this is that He is God Man? How do you know that this “God Man” indoctrination is not similarly flawed as was the “original sin” error of the Jews?

What error of the Jews? You make it sound like there was already some council held by the Jews -before Christ came- that settled the theological position on original sin when there wasn’t such a council; therefore, the Jews could not be in error over something they were completely ignorant about at the time. Obviously no position for or against the belief in original sin had come up prior to Christ since if it had and the matter had already been settled then we couldn’t account for the practicing Jews which followed Christ and became His apostles and disciples. The conclusion. The Jews could only be said to be in error if they rejected the Truths Christ revealed after He had revealed them and not before.

In short: the Jews weren’t wrong and neither was Christ. The only Jews that became wrong were the ones that rejected Christ and of course the Jews who claim their faith rejected the concept of original sin when they had no clue at that time that original sin even existed, that is until Christ showed up.

 

[Hypnotoad]

servant asks what Jesus brought that moses did not bring.

i answered with a half dozen factual gifts that Jesus gave us that moses did not and could not give us.

but servant offers, i conclude what Jesus brought was a spirit of love for all.

while that is accurate, since the Holy Spirit is love, it is hardly and acknowledgement of the many other, some quite concrete, gifts that Jesus gave us.

should i be insulted or upset that servant completely ignored all of the other examples of the new gifts Jesus gave mankind? no. why should i be upset?

servant clearly has his own agenda and asking questions, ignoring most answers and summarizing his own answer for us is clearly servant’s game.

this thread does not seem ever to have been out the question posed by servant.

I agree.

 

[1catholic4chris]

my experience is the holy Spirit-- i speak regularly with the power of the Holy Spirit,and pray for different people

Purpose and Theme of the holy Spirit

1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:

2 for gaining wisdom and instruction;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,[a]
knowledge and discretion to the young—
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance—
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.**

7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[c] despise wisdom and instruction.

23 The Lord answered Moses, “Is the Lord’s arm too short? Now you will see whether or not what I say will come true for you.”

24 So Moses went out and told the people what the Lord had said. He brought together seventy of their elders and had them stand around the tent. 25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but did not do so again.

26 However, two men, whose names were Eldad and Medad, had remained in the camp. They were listed among the elders, but did not go out to the tent.

Yet the Spirit also rested on them, and they prophesied in the camp.

27 A young man ran and told Moses,

“Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.”

28 Joshua son of Nun, who had been Moses’ aide since youth, spoke up and said, “Moses, my lord, stop them!”

29 But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!” 30 Then Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp.

New International Version
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

The Coming of the Holy Spirit

2 When fthe day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.

2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like ga mighty rushing wind, and hit filled the entire house where they were sitting.

3 And divided tongues ias of fire appeared to them and rested1 on each one of them.

4 And they were all jfilled with the Holy Spirit and began kto speak in other tongues las the Spirit gave them utterance.

But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 v“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,

wthat I will pour out my Spirit xon all flesh,

and your sons and yyour daughters shall prophesy,

and your young men shall see visions,

and your old men shall dream dreams;

18 even on my male servants3 and female servants

in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and zthey shall prophesy.

19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,

blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;

20 the sun shall be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood,

before bthe day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.

21 And it shall come to pass that c every one who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’**

 

[SteveVH]

my experience is the holy Spirit-- i speak regularly with the power of the Holy Spirit,and pray for different people

Purpose and Theme of the holy Spirit…

Welcome to CAF.

Could you maybe explain what your post has to do with the thread topic? I’m sure I am just missing something.

 

[meltzerboy]

Eddie, I think spreading blatant falsehoods about the Baha’i Faith, especially having already pointed out the errors in your accusations of the Baha’i Faith on multiple occasions in the past, is a concern.

The Baha’is need to be more clear in their presentation of our Faith. OUR FAULT, and our sincere apologies to you…

Anyway, this really isn’t a Baha’i thread. I really wanted to know what new concepts/understandings Jesus brought, and it seems to me that He really brought a depth of spirit and a universal love for all (friends and foes alike) within His Revelation which, for me anyway, is a valid reason for His appearance on earth and definitely a valid reason for the Jews on this forum to have a sincere look at why they are rejecting Jesus

I agree that Jesus’ explicit mention of loving one’s enemies is rather new. I qualify this by saying “rather” since the Torah and Talmud do speak of restraint even in times of war against one’s enemies, as well as not rejoicing at their defeat. Jewish rejection of Jesus is specifically targeted at the claim that He is the Messiah and, even more so, that He is G-d. However, it is NOT a rejection of His wisdom nor His goodness as a rabbi.

 

[M1Garand]

Eddie, I think spreading blatant falsehoods about the Baha’i Faith, especially having already pointed out the errors in your accusations of the Baha’i Faith on multiple occasions in the past, is a concern.

The Baha’is need to be more clear in their presentation of our Faith. OUR FAULT, and our sincere apologies to you…

Anyway, this really isn’t a Baha’i thread. I really wanted to know what new concepts/understandings Jesus brought, and it seems to me that He really brought a depth of spirit and a universal love for all (friends and foes alike) within His Revelation which, for me anyway, is a valid reason for His appearance on earth and definitely a valid reason for the Jews on this forum to have a sincere look at why they are rejecting Jesus

It is that universal message that the Jews could not abide. Jews now reject a person messiah they believe in a messianic age where the world is subjugated to them. It seems natural and right that the creator of all things and all people would love all people equally and fully and invite all mankind to share in the kingdom. Jesus(who I believe to be God) was a total revolutionary(because he is God) and came to set straight the reality of the universality of salvation. It is not a country club where only the members get the privilege, something even some Catholics have a hard time with. That is why some have a hard time with the inclusion of all believers in the Mystical Body of Christ–which the Church teaches is the faith.

 

[meltzerboy]

It is that universal message that the Jews could not abide. Jews now reject a person messiah they believe in a messianic age where the world is subjugated to them. It seems natural and right that the creator of all things and all people would love all people equally and fully and invite all mankind to share in the kingdom. Jesus(who I believe to be God) was a total revolutionary(because he is God) and came to set straight the reality of the universality of salvation. It is not a country club where only the members get the privilege, something even some Catholics have a hard time with. That is why some have a hard time with the inclusion of all believers in the Mystical Body of Christ–which the Church teaches is the faith.

Jews believe that during the Messianic era ALL peoples will live as brothers and sisters. There is no subjugation involved. In fact, no one is to be forced to convert to Judaism. However, everyone will finally see the light and truth of the monotheistic G-d. The notion of the Jews as the Chosen People does not bestow on them any special privilege and does not mean G-d loves the Jews more than He does other people. What it does mean is that Jews, as a people, have a special responsibility to serve as the light of G-d’s truth to the nations of the world by means of their moral behavior, much as Christians believe they must bring the message of Jesus to the world.

 

[M1Garand]

Jews believe that during the Messianic era ALL peoples will live as brothers and sisters. There is no subjugation involved. In fact, no one is to be forced to convert to Judaism. However, everyone will finally see the light and truth of the monotheistic G-d. The notion of the Jews as the Chosen People does not bestow on them any special privilege and does not mean G-d loves the Jews more than He does other people. What it does mean is that Jews, as a people, have a special responsibility to serve as the light of G-d’s truth to the nations of the world by means of their moral behavior, much as Christians believe they must bring the message of Jesus to the world.

I respect your interpretation but it is a modern one and perhaps reform in nature. Ancient Jews had no agreement on a messiah or messianic age. Only one of the old theories told of a messiah would be a man from the house of David. None of the ancient theories believed he would be God. According to the many Jewish sources I have studied, reform, Orthodox, and Conservative, there is still not complete agreement on this issue. But the traditional Jewish view of the messianic age, though universal, is distinct in that meaning. In every Jewish source on this issue it is stated Jews do not evangelize so I think bringing the light of God to the world is different from evangelization it seems to be an awakening to the Jewish way. This is tempered from the 1st century view which seems to be subjugation.

I am trying to become more educated about the different sects of Judaism so please be patient with my interpretations, I am not trying to be offensive.

 

[SteveVH]

I agree that Jesus’ explicit mention of loving one’s enemies is rather new. I qualify this by saying “rather” since the Torah and Talmud do speak of restraint even in times of war against one’s enemies, as well as not rejoicing at their defeat. Jewish rejection of Jesus is specifically targeted at the claim that He is the Messiah and, even more so, that He is G-d. However, it is NOT a rejection of His wisdom nor His goodness as a rabbi.

Why would a “wise rabbi”, if that is all he was, claim that he is both God and the Messiah? Sounds to me like he is either delusional or an out and out liar. Or he was who he said he was. He certainly was not a good teacher if what he was saying was false.

 

[tommydude2112]

Just wondering what it was that Jesus brought to humanity that was not already brought by Moses Himself?

What is the Catholic (and non-Catholic if anyone wishes to contribute) position on this?

Thanks and G-d bless!

The Catholic view is that Jesus brought salvation whereas Moses didn’t.
This means that before Jesus died for our sins; Moses, Abraham and all their followers couldn’t get into heaven and so were stuck in a place called Limbo of the Fathers (Limbus Patrum) which is a version of Hell.

When Jesus died on the cross, he descended to Limbo and released all the patriarchs and early prophets thus enabling humans from then on to be able to get into Heaven.

 

[meltzerboy]

Why would a “wise rabbi”, if that is all he was, claim that he is both God and the Messiah? Sounds to me like he is either delusional or an out and out liar. Or he was who he said he was. He certainly was not a good teacher if what he was saying was false.

There were several claimants to the Messiah among Jews both before and after Jesus, some of whom were rabbis and/or learned in the Torah, as the Messiah is purported to be. Nonetheless, rabbis were and are imperfect just like everyone else. Many were quite revolutionary in their thinking and belonged to lesser-known Jewish sects of ancient times. All of them contributed in their way to the history of the Jewish people and many were wise, or at least knowledgeable. I wouldn’t necessarily use words like “delusional” or “liar” to portray them, however. I prefer to describe them as misled due to their religious fervor.

 

[Servant19]

Servant, do you understand what the word “inspired” means in the religious sense? The Catholic Church has proclaimed all of the sacred texts which make up our Bible to be the inspired word of God. That means that God is the divine author of Sacred Scripture. And while Jesus’ words are of upmost importance, the words of Paul that are included in the New Testament are the word of God as well. So there is no need to pick through the Bible and decide who is more credible. The words of all of the human authors of Scripture are the word of God and all of them point to Jesus.

I can tell you quite categorically, that because of the recent historicity and accuracy of recording of the life of some recent Messengers of God, that the words of Paul and the Apostles would not even come close to the words of Jesus Himself. Not even in the same ball park…

 

[SteveVH]

There were several claimants to the Messiah among Jews both before and after Jesus, some of whom were rabbis and/or learned in the Torah, as the Messiah is purported to be. Nonetheless, rabbis were and are imperfect just like everyone else. Many were quite revolutionary in their thinking and belonged to lesser-known Jewish sects of ancient times. All of them contributed in their way to the history of the Jewish people and many were wise, or at least knowledgeable. I wouldn’t necessarily use words like “delusional” or “liar” to portray them, however. I prefer to describe them as misled due to their religious fervor.

But did any of them claim to be God? By the way, I do appreciate you being as charitable as possible, but it seems to me to be a pretty black and white issue. Either he was who he claimed to be (about as big a claim as one could make) or he was not. Yes, a knowledgeable man can still be capable of fraud, but a good and wise teacher (rabbi) cannot (if he is truly good and wise).

Anyway, thanks for your response.

 

[SteveVH]

I can tell you quite categorically, that because of the recent historicity and accuracy of recording of the life of some recent Messengers of God, that the words of Paul and the Apostles would not even come close to the words of Jesus Himself. Not even in the same ball park…

You’re going to have to do better than that. Please provide your sources which allow you to make such a statement? The Bible is one of the most well documented books of antiquity.