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eddie_too
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Jesus gave us the Way, the Truth and the Life.
What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?
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eddie_too
Guest
Jesus gave us the Roman Catholic Church.
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eddie_too
Guest
Jesus freed us from sin.
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eddie_too
Guest
Jesus gave us knowledge of the most Holy Trinity, the essence of our Creator.
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HelenRose
Guest
You need to revise that statement to:Thankyou dear friends, but Jews do not believe in original sin.
So there is nothing to be redeemed from…
“So, they do not believe that they need to be redeemed.”
It would be like my saying. I do not believe that the Old Testament existed therefor there was never a Moses.
(I do believe the Old Testament existed. That is just an example of a logical response.)
Whether or not there is original sin is one question, but believing or disbelieving will not change the reality of the situation. Believing does not make something true or false.
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MartinJordan
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Servant19
Guest
I’m not impuning Paul’s authority, but he certainly was no Jesus. It’s simply a matter of observing the reality, Iggy. To equate the authority of Paul to Jesus will be first and foremost denied by James the Just.
That’s my thoughts on the matter, not that I am denying Pauls authority, just recognizing it for what you should be recognizing it for.
Baha’is do not deny the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, He was the ONLY mediator between God and man, it’s simply that this reality is not applicable for ever and ever. The moment Muhammad said “I am”, He became the ONLY mediator betwen God and man, and for today that man is ONLY Baha’u’llah, the Father Himself…
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MartinJordan
Guest
Gibberish once again. Sheesh.
1 Corinthians 15:14-19
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19** If only for this life **we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
MJ
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Servant19
Guest
Thankyou Martin, I’m familiar with this type of persecution
I apologize for any offense caused to produce this response…
I’m sorry, but what does this quote have to do with Jesus saying that He is greater than Moses?
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Servant19
Guest
In which case, He would, according to the Jews, fail in His Messianic claim…
(do you see how hard it is to explain a “spiritual” truth to people who are so attached to thinking that the spirit world is pretty much a physical world??)
I think these sorts of things are very worthy to be deeply reflected upon, so an effective and rational understanding can be sought. This will STRENGTHEN our faith in God, yet not be attached to His human manifestations, but rather His Human Manifestations. One is an understanding provided by humans, and the other is an understanding given by God Himself…
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MartinJordan
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Clarify for me. What persecution?Thankyou Martin, I’m familiar with this type of persecution
I apologize for any offense caused to produce this response…
Did Moses promise everlasting life by the giving of himself?
MJ
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I obviously consider Christ true and of greater authority than the man Paul himself. But Paul’s teachings cannot be dismissed nor can the teachings of the new testament because this is the teaching of Christ taught to us by Paul an apostle of the lord and if you don’t trust Paul, if you are going to deny hebrews and Paul you are having also to deny the gospels which were transmitted to us by men and not by Jesus himself.
You deny Jesus being the only mediator between God and man when you say that Mirza Hussain can fill that gap, that Christ is unneccessary next to him. The new testament tells us Christ is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved, not Moses, not Muhammad, not Mirza Hussain, Jesus. He is the creator of heaven and earth. You deny these things and attribute them to all of the manifestations. Thus you deny hebrews and the new testament. BUt are you really positing a bahai version of Patripassionism? Was Mirza Hussain the one who spoke from heaven “This is my son.”? Now the fahter has never been incarnate and I will accept such a hideos doctrine. No Christian will.
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Servant19
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I am not dismissing Paul’s teachings at all. He captured the spirit of Jesus’ Message very adequately, but it does not make him infallible. Of course he would magnify Jesus to be above Moses, he was trying to cut off Christianity from Judaism and rightly so, it was an independent religion. He saw the Law as the “ministry that brings death”, such was his resolve to remove the Judaic component from Christianity. He allowed the uncircumcised to join the community. You think a man like that would not find it a noble endeavour to magnify Jesus to be greater than Moses?
Of course he would, it was his duty as the chief propagator of his Faith in Gentile territories. But does that necessarily make it a truth that would be testified by Jesus Himself? Maybe, maybe not, but lets be fair, it certainly is not an assertion that one would make unless one has a motive of sinister elitism, which unfortunately runs through many religious adherents of all Abrahamic religions. How beneficial is this sense of elitism? Zip, zilch, nada, the world is separated by people who consider themselves above and “greater” than others, all because they have the so called “Truth”
This is the point…
My friend, all Christians assert that Jesus is the only name that provides salvation, yet there is not one religion that says that there is a need to be saved from original sin.
I can easily start a new religion tomorrow. Walk up to people and say that they will die next week, unless they come with me and I conduct some ritual which will “save” them from death. They come with me, ritual is conducted and lo and behold, they don’t die next week. I am the saviour. Is it necessarily truth? Jesus never did anything like this. Its only the adherents that created this situation.
Neither Judaism, Islam or the Baha’i Faith indicate any need for salvation from original sin, because original sin is a man-made doctrine.
What all the religions do emphasise is the concept of following the Will of God through our deeds, which will bring about spiritual fruits, enables adornment of the soul with wondrous ornaments which will contribute towards an afterlife in close communion with our Beloved. This is salvation. Jesus gave us salvation by providing us with the Divine Will to follow, and giving us His Person to have faith in.
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Moses did exactly the same thing…
I’m sure there are many Jews that can tell you that a Messiah claiming to be God is a “hideous doctrine” too. I personally am quite comfortable with Baha’u’llah’s claim that He is the Person of the Father.
Really, Iggy, you need to have a good look in the mirror sometimes, the tone that you sometimes have is not friendly or charitable dear friend. Wake up!!
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eddie_too
Guest
bahaullah wrote hundreds of thousands of pages of words.
most bahai are familiar with only a small percentage of bahuallah’s writings, yet they act as though what they understand of bahaullah’s writings is correct and whatever else in contained in the hundreds of thousands of pages could not possibly change their very limited understanding of bahullah.
it is fair to believe that no human being has read all that bahaullah wrote, much less interpreted it and studied it for nuances and consistency.
most bahai are familiar with only a small percentage of bahuallah’s writings, yet they act as though what they understand of bahaullah’s writings is correct and whatever else in contained in the hundreds of thousands of pages could not possibly change their very limited understanding of bahullah.
it is fair to believe that no human being has read all that bahaullah wrote, much less interpreted it and studied it for nuances and consistency.
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eddie_too
Guest
no follower of bahaullah has ever presented a convincing argument for believing bahaullah was divinely inspired and given supernatural understanding of reality, as opposed to providing a human inspired, natural understanding of reality.
flowery words and bold claims and assertions can be produced by many humans naturally. they have little significance or value when evaluating an individual’s spiritual claims.
flowery words and bold claims and assertions can be produced by many humans naturally. they have little significance or value when evaluating an individual’s spiritual claims.
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eddie_too
Guest
so, it is clear that Jesus gave us much that moses did not and could not give us.
it is equally clear that bahaullah added nothing essential to the teachings, the life and the death and resurrection of Jesus.
the unification of the world has been taught and proposed by many. there is nothing supernatural about such a teaching.
before and at the time of Christ and ever since, there have been people who teach that the our bodies are not raised from the grave. that is a natural teaching, not a supernatural teaching.
i think if you took away from bahaullah’s writing the phrases and words where he is praising himself and his own greatness, it would reduce bahaullahs writings by about 95%.
it is equally clear that bahaullah added nothing essential to the teachings, the life and the death and resurrection of Jesus.
the unification of the world has been taught and proposed by many. there is nothing supernatural about such a teaching.
before and at the time of Christ and ever since, there have been people who teach that the our bodies are not raised from the grave. that is a natural teaching, not a supernatural teaching.
i think if you took away from bahaullah’s writing the phrases and words where he is praising himself and his own greatness, it would reduce bahaullahs writings by about 95%.
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TEPO
Guest
Hopefully it doesn’t end up being another sun-god worshiping religion with relativism at its core. One of those ‘as long as you believe in a higher power you’re fine’ religions where man is placed at the highest level right up there with God.
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Servant19
Guest
Eddie, I think spreading blatant falsehoods about the Baha’i Faith, especially having already pointed out the errors in your accusations of the Baha’i Faith on multiple occasions in the past, is a concern.
The Baha’is need to be more clear in their presentation of our Faith. OUR FAULT, and our sincere apologies to you…
Anyway, this really isn’t a Baha’i thread. I really wanted to know what new concepts/understandings Jesus brought, and it seems to me that He really brought a depth of spirit and a universal love for all (friends and foes alike) within His Revelation which, for me anyway, is a valid reason for His appearance on earth and definitely a valid reason for the Jews on this forum to have a sincere look at why they are rejecting Jesus
The Baha’is need to be more clear in their presentation of our Faith. OUR FAULT, and our sincere apologies to you…
Anyway, this really isn’t a Baha’i thread. I really wanted to know what new concepts/understandings Jesus brought, and it seems to me that He really brought a depth of spirit and a universal love for all (friends and foes alike) within His Revelation which, for me anyway, is a valid reason for His appearance on earth and definitely a valid reason for the Jews on this forum to have a sincere look at why they are rejecting Jesus
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Servant19
Guest
Thankyou HelenRose, I appreciate your correction, and point very validly taken
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SteveVH
Guest
Servant, do you understand what the word “inspired” means in the religious sense? The Catholic Church has proclaimed all of the sacred texts which make up our Bible to be the inspired word of God. That means that God is the divine author of Sacred Scripture. And while Jesus’ words are of upmost importance, the words of Paul that are included in the New Testament are the word of God as well. So there is no need to pick through the Bible and decide who is more credible. The words of all of the human authors of Scripture are the word of God and all of them point to Jesus.
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