What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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John_Paul_Jones said:
Jesus is God, the Son of God. God does not conceal the Truth. Jesus could not abolish the concept of God, nor abolish God in the Jewish religion nor the Jewish concept of God - whatever you are trying to get at.
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Hi John, I guess I’m more asking a question rather than asserting a point. I will try to rephrase it.

Given that Jesus re-interpreted the book of Genesis for the Jews to instill the concept of original sin for the first time (a truth which the Jews were apparently unaware of) is it possible that since He, as the Messiah, while at the same time God incarnate, might also have given a new concept of who God is to the Jews?

He was the Messiah, and He was God, therefore since the Messiah is NOT God according to Jewish scripture, is Jesus, by His very Messiahship and Godship, asserting to the Jews who God is?

Either He is doing that, or He is not the Messiah, or He is not God.

Does that make sense?
Excuse my long winded approach, but I think it’s a valid question
 
Servant 19 that does make sense and it is valid and the answer is yes! He was asserting, not only to Jews, but the entire world (as revealed by the parable of the wedding feast) who God truly is!

This does not mean God did not truly interact with all of humanity in the past, but no one had seen God face to face…
Yet.

John 14:8

“Philip said to Him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip?’”
 
ianmarie91 said:
Servant 19 that does make sense and it is valid and the answer is yes! He was asserting, not only to Jews, but the entire world (as revealed by the parable of the wedding feast) who God truly is!

This does not mean God did not truly interact with all of humanity in the past, but no one had seen God face to face…
Yet.

John 14:8

“Philip said to Him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip?’”
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Looks like maybe Bahaullah is doing the same thing with the New Testament that Jesus did with the Old Testament… ?
 
drac16 said:
You can believe what you want. You would do well to not dismiss it, though.
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Why can’t I dismiss it? It is a text that comes six hundred years after the life of Jesus and proports to be a message from God because of how beautiful it is written and sounds. I am not convinced by the quran, nor will i take it as God inspired writing untill I am convinced of. Why should I believe the quran accurately quotes Jesus? The historical option is out of bounds for you, you will have rely on the quran being divine to which all I need to show is one thing the quran gets wrong.
 
Servant19 said:
Hi John, I guess I’m more asking a question rather than asserting a point. I will try to rephrase it.

Given that Jesus re-interpreted the book of Genesis for the Jews to instill the concept of original sin for the first time (a truth which the Jews were apparently unaware of) is it possible that since He, as the Messiah, while at the same time God incarnate, might also have given a new concept of who God is to the Jews?
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Jesus didn’t re-interpret anything, He is the Divine Author of Genesis and therefore the authority on the matter. The truth had been revealed in parts, by the prophets. Jesus is the fullness of that Truth. He didn’t change anything that was written, he simply revealed the deeper truth present in the words.
Servant19 said:
He was the Messiah, and He was God, therefore since the Messiah is NOT God according to Jewish scripture, is Jesus, by His very Messiahship and Godship, asserting to the Jews who God is?
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Yes, of course he was asserting this to the Jews, and not only the Jews, but the entire world. That is what separates Jesus from Noah or Abraham or Moses or Elijah or Isaiah or… anyone else in Jewish history. Jesus claimed to be God. None of the others did. He either is or he is not. He is certainly not just another prophet. He is either the Son of God or he is a liar and a fraud and a charlatan.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
You deny Hebrews? I was told by bahai it was authoritative scripture.
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SteveVH it is very likely any kind of explanation you give (even if Jesus’ own words show that he is indeed greater than Moses - and it’s there in consistency and context ) it will be brushed off with another subjective pre-conceived notion. :rolleyes:

I’m not here to baby non-believers. They need to do their own homework :cool:

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
SteveVH it is very likely any kind of explanation you give (even if Jesus’ own words show that he is indeed greater than Moses - and it’s there in consistency and context ) it will be brushed off with another subjective pre-conceived notion. :rolleyes:

I’m not here to baby non-believers. They need to do their own homework :cool:

MJ
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Not sure why you are referencing a post by IgnatianPhilo while addressing me, but I agree with you completely. The Baha’i seem to have a preoccupation with pitting Christians against Jews in an attempt to draw an analogy to Christianity and the Baha’i faith. If Jesus changed what the Jews believed then Baha’u’llah should be able to change what Christians believe. I have a feeling that this is a Baha’i thread in sheep’s clothing.
 
SteveVH said:
Not sure why you are referencing a post by IgnatianPhilo while addressing me, but I agree with you completely. The Baha’i seem to have a preoccupation with pitting Christians against Jews in an attempt to draw an analogy to Christianity and the Baha’i faith. If Jesus changed what the Jews believed then Baha’u’llah should be able to change what Christians believe. I have a feeling that this is a Baha’i thread in sheep’s clothing.
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Oops! My bad.

I get confused when believers do their homework:D

MJ
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
You deny Hebrews? I was told by bahai it was authoritative scripture.
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Nope, ignatian, we seem to have a resurfacing of your inaccurate reading again.

I said Hebrews was not Jesus’ Words. Is it? Last I read, it’s been relatively reliably traced back to Paul, who quoted Jesus very little.
 
SteveVH said:
Jesus didn’t re-interpret anything, He is the Divine Author of Genesis and therefore the authority on the matter. The truth had been revealed in parts, by the prophets. Jesus is the fullness of that Truth. He didn’t change anything that was written, he simply revealed the deeper truth present in the words.
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I agree, the deeper truth may have been there, but was it Jesus who provided the truth or was it Ireneaus, Tertullian and the like?

I disagree that it was not a re-interpretation. The Tanakh authors and their successor by smichah were interpreting the book by saying there was no inheritance of sin. Christianity then re-interpreted this to be an inheritance of sin.
SteveVH said:
Yes, of course he was asserting this to the Jews, and not only the Jews, but the entire world. That is what separates Jesus from Noah or Abraham or Moses or Elijah or Isaiah or… anyone else in Jewish history. Jesus claimed to be God. None of the others did. He either is or he is not. He is certainly not just another prophet. He is either the Son of God or he is a liar and a fraud and a charlatan.
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So ok we can establish that Jesus brought His Divine Person to the world which was clearly a more potent representation of God than what Moses was. Is that a fair conclusion from what you wrote Steve?
 
Servant19 said:
I agree, the deeper truth may have been there, but was it Jesus who provided the truth or was it Ireneaus, Tertullian and the like?
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It was Jesus who provided the truth to his church which has been faithful. If you are going to say Iraneaus and the entire ante Nicene tradition taught falsehood, please provide the true successors of Jesus who were victorious according to the quran you think is accurate. Iraneaus was right when he said Jesus rose physically from the dead. Your gnostics (whom I think are the only ones you can agree or claim any sense of communion with) were wrong. So its you and your prophet against the entire Christian tradition.
 
Servant19 said:
Nope, ignatian, we seem to have a resurfacing of your inaccurate reading again.

I said Hebrews was not Jesus’ Words. Is it? Last I read, it’s been relatively reliably traced back to Paul, who quoted Jesus very little.
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Are you impuning the authority of hebrews as if it were less true because Jesus did not directly say it. You are also going as far as to deny Paul’s teaching on these matters because he is not Jesus. Obviously we realise hebrews was not written by Jesus, there is no need to play a coy game of words. If you deny what hebrews says (that Jesus is God almighty to whom the father says “your throne o God is forever.” That Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, the one sacrifice to atone for sins (Which bahai do definetely deny). Deny it, but be clear about it.
 
Servant19 said:
I agree, the deeper truth may have been there, but was it Jesus who provided the truth or was it Ireneaus, Tertullian and the like?
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The early Church fathers received the fullness of truth from the Apostles, some of whom were their contemporaries. The Apostles received the fullness of truth from Jesus Christ. They only taught that which they received, just as we do today.
Servant19 said:
I disagree that it was not a re-interpretation. The Tanakh authors and their successor by smichah were interpreting the book by saying there was no inheritance of sin. Christianity then re-interpreted this to be an inheritance of sin.
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You must understand what original sin actually is. Original sin is not something we acquire. It is, rather, something that we are lacking when we are born. The sin of Adam and Eve separated man from God and in doing so changed human nature from what God had intended in the beginning. We are born lacking spiritual life because our first parents died spiritually. That was the death against which Adam and Eve were warned should they eat of the tree; a spiritual death. In addition they, and all the rest of us would also have to undergo physical death. Only through Baptism is our spiritual life restored and maintained through the sacraments of Christ’s Church.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.…” (Romans 5:12)

We have received the fullness of truth in Jesus Christ. The Jews have rejected this truth. Their rejection has no bearing on the truth of the Gospel.
Servant19 said:
So ok we can establish that Jesus brought His Divine Person to the world which was clearly a more potent representation of God than what Moses was. Is that a fair conclusion from what you wrote Steve?
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Moses was never a “representation of God”. Jesus, on the other hand, is God Almighty, the Creator of the universe. So what you say has some truth to it but it is a understatement of great magnitude. Jesus was not merely a “more potent representation of God”. He is God who dwelt among us. This is something that seems difficult for you to grasp.
 
Servant19 said:
If He was God made flesh, then it belittles God IMHO, but it also has some Truth to it.
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You need to learn the difference between “humility” and “humiliation”. Jesus revealed a God who loves us so much that he humbled himself, voluntarily, to become man and die so that we might have eternal life. That is who the true God is. Your view is that of the Muslims, who, while believing in one God, have never known God because they have never know Jesus Christ. Our God does rule us from far away. He has become present to us and invites us into a true union with him.
 
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