What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[daisychain]

Thankyou daisychain, I appreciate the gesture.

I would like to assert that this thread was not started to share my Faith, it was started to objectively analyse the flow of God’s Teachings from one religion to another.

A few days ago, I was thinking about starting a thread entitled “What did Muhammad bring to the world that was not already brought by Jesus?”…but I decided aginst this one for now

God bless you

I know. I’ve been reading a lot of your Baha’i thread. I just wanted to step in here to take a stance. I actually think you are not the one here turning this thread into a Baha’i thread…

I’m a catholic BTW. And I stand for unity, understanding and peace.

 

[Servant19]

I know. I’ve been reading a lot of your Baha’i thread. I just wanted to step in here to take a stance. I actually think you are not the one here turning this thread into a Baha’i thread…

I’m a catholic BTW. And I stand for unity, understanding and peace.

Like the scent of roses in the warm breezes of midsummer dusk

God bless you!!

 

[daisychain]

Dear Daisy,
. What a breath of fresh air you breath into the garden of the hearts here by saying such a remarkably kind welcome to folks of different perspective and beliefs about things. The cultural variations are alone massive mines of new knowledge and fear is the only thing which can account for the level o fear of learning what others believe.

. When soon we partake of thanksgiving dinner, we share not only fellowship, but food of a wide variety to put into our mouths and digest with our bellies. When people sample and study other’s beliefs they are truly blessed, enriched, and broadened immensely.

. The diversity among God’s creatures invites our curiosity and good will, which is always welcome. How many beautiful souls created by God have I enjoyed great friendships over the years. Taking the time with people yields rich and varied rewards and much fuller appreciation of God’s creation. I’d encourage everyone this weekend to visit a church or synagogue, mosque or temple. This is a human Thanksgiving, praising God for the diversity of our human family. Sooo much to gain.

God lbless eveyonw.

Thank you, Daler!
I agree, we can only learn, deepen our understanding and strengthen our faith through inter-faith dialogues.

God Bless you All.

 

[MartinJordan]

You said the following:

What religion were you implying that I am not a spokesperson for?

I was responding to this…in your own words: "I realised there is a lot of pre-judging and misunderstandings going on here on CAF regarding all other religions (just scroll through the Non-Catholics section for examples), so I am here to assist in the process of “understanding” from a perspective that most Catholics may not have looked at.
"

See bolded. What makes you the spokesperson FOR other religions?

MJ

 

[Servant19]

I was responding to this…in your own words: "I realised there is a lot of pre-judging and misunderstandings going on here on CAF regarding all other religions (just scroll through the Non-Catholics section for examples), so I am here to assist in the process of “understanding” from a perspective that most Catholics may not have looked at.
"

See bolded. What makes you the spokesperson FOR other religions?

MJ

I’m not the spokesperson FOR any religion.

I’m here to offer a humble perspective, that is all, and in the process hopefully learn from others.

When Joe pointed out that the love for others that Jesus heralded was a universal love, in contrast to Jewish love which was more in line with love for ones fellow Jew…I LEARNT SOMETHING, and I thanked him for it…a wonderful insight.

Then when I revisited John 13, questions popped in from re-reading the verse. Was Jesus’ love trully universal according to His new commandment? That was an invitation to explore this quote with others in a spirit of fellowship so again, I MAY BE ABLE TO LEARN SOMETHING…

This is the concern I have. I feel too many people glide over the posts where I am thankful, and focus on the posts that are challenging and assume that this is an attack on the Catholic Faith. I never knew a challenging question was deemed an attack that warranted an attack on the Baha’i Faith. Is it?

Is this where the world is at? That we should think and question according to clearly defined boundaries and any intellectual pursuit for the Truth outside of these boundaries, is bombarded with a willingness to get banned from CAF, as long as an abuse can be flung?

**
I love each and every one of you** (that includes YOU doormouse), with a love that strangers often find uncomfortable when I embrace them in person . My sincerity in trying to offer a perspective is enshrouded with a spirit of fellowship and prayers for empowerment, so we can fulfill our capacities as intellectual, spiritual and loving human beings. Why is this seen as harmful?

 

[daler]

Thank you, Daler!
I agree, we can only learn, deepen our understanding and strengthen our faith through inter-faith dialogues.

God Bless you All.

Daisy,
. What really began my interest in religion and cultures was growing up on the Yankton Sioux Reservation in South Dakota. What a night and day difference. The railroad went through town east and west. South of the tracks extreme poverty - the Indians. North of the tracks - white “Christians”. No offense intended by that, but it was true, true, true.

. When its 40 below zero you want to be in a warm house, ie, north of the tracks. Things have improved somewhat with a casino west of town. They found the achilles heal of the white man - greed. Wanting something for nothing, like land, etc.

. Seems to even things out a bit, but of course they brought their whiskey, beer, and wine to the res, too. Got 'em all drunk and then got 'em saved. the American way, you know. Manifest Destiny. We’ll trade you a Bible and a bottle for your land and your soul.

. Oh! and by the way. You can’t pray to the Great Spirit anymore. We killed him at Wounded Knee, you know, and put up a church for the survivors around Christmas time.

. Axe to grind, you say? Naw… Facts to find. Why? Cause its the Truth that sets us Free, ya know. Says so right there next to Love your enemies, then kill them!

My Lakota friends were beaten, locked up, and starved in the Mission School my mother taught in back in the 60’s My Indian friends hung their heads in shame when asked how it was, so demoralized, so pacified, so dehumanized.

Somehow, the love of Christ was slow going out there in Treaty Territory where my grand-folks homesteaded, My old man used to pick up dried buffalo “chips” on the prairie to keep warm and cook jackrabbit stew.

. Gotta save the souls of those little Indian babies born with fetal alcohol syndrome. Sober 'em up enough to sign one more treaty in exchange for another bottle of wine.

. Sorry for the rant, my dear friends. You know how it is, don’t ya? Or do ya… There’s a line out of that early sixties song: "Hate your next door neighbor, but don’t forget to say “Grace”… Eve of Destruction, by Barry Sadler. A friend of a friend of mine.

God Almighty! Please send us a Savior! Oh, thats right. He fixed everything for us just before we killed Him, too!

“forgive me Father, I know not what I say.”

Believe it or not constructive dialogue starts with reality, not fantasy. And thats life on the Rez, folks. If you ever get out to Wounded Knee, look up the Medicine family, and say HI from Dale, will ya. They gave up a fine young son in Viet Nam named Frank Jealous of Him, named after his grandfather who was such a noble upright and generous man that some people were Jealous of Him. I found Frank’s name on that wall in Washington DC some years ago, said a prayer for him.

Oh… And maybe smoke the Pipe with 'em in honor of the Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka.

. So the answer to the thread isn’t what Jesus brought, really! Its what those who called themselves His followers brought. Wine, broken treaties, all signed “In the year of our Lord… 1868” As long as the wind shall blow and the grass shall grow…"

And after the Massacre at Wounded Knee back in 1892, they buried the dead in a mass grave like My Lai, then rounded up the ones that somehow survived, hauled 'em into Pine Ridge inside a Church where right there over the altar where all could see in great Big Letters: “Peace on Earth: Good will toward men” Ummm - well the white ones, anyway, ya’ll.

. Now how do I go about gettin’ saved again?

. May I hereby proclaim in all honesty, my dear friends, that I truly love the Lord Jesus Christ, and pray for the day when His followers learn to love their neighbors as themselves. So do, I know. God bless all true Christians, who are charitable, tolerant of other races and religions, and do the Father’s will, for they are always welcome back on the Rez, ya’ll.

. God bless each and every one of you tender hearted souls who feels just a twinge in your heart right about now. Praised be to God the Great Spirit for the love of Christ. We need it real bad, don’t cha know…

Peace

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m not the spokesperson FOR any religion.

I’m here to offer a humble perspective, that is all, and in the process hopefully learn from others.

When Joe pointed out that the love for others that Jesus heralded was a universal love, in contrast to Jewish love which was more in line with love for ones fellow Jew…I LEARNT SOMETHING, and I thanked him for it…a wonderful insight.

Then when I revisited John 13, questions popped in from re-reading the verse. Was Jesus’ love trully universal according to His new commandment? That was an invitation to explore this quote with others in a spirit of fellowship so again, I MAY BE ABLE TO LEARN SOMETHING…

This is the concern I have. I feel too many people glide over the posts where I am thankful, and focus on the posts that are challenging and assume that this is an attack on the Catholic Faith. I never knew a challenging question was deemed an attack that warranted an attack on the Baha’i Faith. Is it?

Is this where the world is at? That we should think and question according to clearly defined boundaries and any intellectual pursuit for the Truth outside of these boundaries, is bombarded with a willingness to get banned from CAF, as long as an abuse can be flung?

**
I love each and every one of you** (that includes YOU doormouse), with a love that strangers often find uncomfortable when I embrace them in person . My sincerity in trying to offer a perspective is enshrouded with a spirit of fellowship and prayers for empowerment, so we can fulfill our capacities as intellectual, spiritual and loving human beings. Why is this seen as harmful?

Servant, I would just like to point out that so-called “Jewish love” is NOT a love only for one’s fellow Jews and it NEVER meant that. It is a universal love for all humans, as well as animals and G-d’s creation in general. How individual Jews may have misinterpreted or distorted the meaning of love in Judaism is another matter; however, it is explicit in the Torah that moral values in Judaism necessitate loving and aiding all of humanity. Even one’s enemies are to be dealt with in a just manner and with restraint rather than undue force, including in times of war: the Torah emphasizes this.

And with regard to your original question, since Jews believe that the Torah contains EVERYTHING pertinent to how we all should best lead our lives, whatever Jesus may have added is believed to be really a more profound interpretation of what is already there in the Law. But it is NOT the final or ultimate interpretation since Judaism is a living religion subject to continuous interpretation of its Law.

 

[SteveVH]

I think inspired Scripture “relies” on a Messenger of God. So Paul’s inspiration relies on Jesus. Without Jesus, there is no inspiration for Paul. Paul is not the actual “inspiration” itself. As a result, He provides certain Truths which are reliant on the condition of His spiritual inspiration from Jesus. He is not privy to “absolute” Truth, and if he infers that Jesus is greater than Moses, we need to understand in which context he is referring to.

If Paul is trying to say that Moses was not privy to the teachings of Jesus, then I think Paul is wrong, simply because Paul cannot know who Moses truly was, nor what He was privy to. Only God does.

If Paul was trying to infer that the light of the Teachings of Jesus was more potent than the light of the Teachings of Moses, then we can assess that from an objective standpoint ourselves and come to an objective conclusion.

Inspiration does not mean “infallible” by any sense of the word. Paul can right all he likes about who he thinks Moses was and some things he would write may be correct, yet some things are incorrect.

It is important to differentiate inspiration from imagination. Intention may well be pure from Paul’s standpoint, and as he writes he has Jesus’ interests as a foremost priority in his mind and heart, yet, like all humans, there are times when the absolute Truth is not contained within that inspiration, since vain imagination can so easily interfere.

How would you differentiate bewteen inspiration and vain imagination?

You have made several comments stating that you are here to learn the Catholic position. If that is true, then learn this, because you do not have a clue as to the Christian position concerning the “inspiration” of Scripture.

The Christian meaning of the word “inspired” means that the human authors wrote, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, exactly what God wanted them to write and nothing more and nothing less. It does not mean that they were “inspired” by the words of Jesus (though I am certain they were) as one would be “inspired” by reading a beautiful poem. Do you see the difference?

So every word in the Bible is God-breathed and Paul’s words, then, are the word of God. God used these men to convey His message to the world, even incorporating their particular personalities and experiences. But every word, regardless of the human author, is the word of God so that we cannot say “well I believe John’s words but not Peter or Paul’s words.” We even have to rely on the human authors to tell us what the words of Jesus were. Can we trust the words of the Gospel writers who give the quotations of Jesus own words more than we trust the writers of the epistles? No. It is all the word of God and we trust that it is the word of God because it was proclaimed so by Christ’s holy Church.

So because the words of Scripture are “inspired” or “God breathed” they are, therefore, “inerrant”. It is the interpretation of the inerrant word of God by the Magisterium that is infallible.

 

[SteveVH]

This is unfair Steve. I have tried to be extremely strict in regards to talking about my Faith in this thread. Yes, the thread was inspired by Eddies’ persitence in asking “What has Baha’u’llah brought to the world that is new?” yet I made a conscious decision to stick to comaparing Judaism with Christianity in this thread.

If you go back, I have asked Eddie on more than one occasion to address his Baha’u’llah accusations on another thread. Yet, again, you see on the previous page how he is insisting to do so on this thread. Eventually, one has to bow to pressure and respond.

I hope you see with the eyes of justice

The following was your answer to my question as to your understanding of the word “inspired”:

Originally Posted by Servant19
If I may try to explain Steve, there is a difference between being “inspired” by the Holy Spirit, and being the embodiment of the Most Great Spirit which symbolized in the Zoroastrian, Mosaic, the Christian and Mohammedan Faiths as the sacred Fire, the Burning Bush, the Dove and the angel Gabriel respectively, descended upon and revealed itself, personated by a ‘Maiden’ to the agonised soul of Baha’u’llah…

“whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still to the voice of the Holy Spirit, standing in My right hand aroused me, and the Most Great Spirit appeared before My face and Gabriel overshadowed me and the Spirit of Glory stirred within My bosom, bidding me arise and break My silence.”

…it is evident that it is not the will of the human to speak forth in these situations (as is the case with Paul and the Apostles), but rather the Most Great Spirit “compells” the Divine Person to speak. It is evident one is a more authentic Voice of God than the other.

So you tell me what the words of Baha’u’llah have to do with the Christian meaning of the word “inspired” especially in the context of the thread topic which has nothing to do with the Baha’i faith? That is why I made that comment. There was no contextual reason to bring Baha’u’llah into the conversation. We are discussing Jesus and Moses.

 

[Servant19]

The following was your answer to my question as to your understanding of the word “inspired”:

So you tell me what the words of Baha’u’llah have to do with the Christian meaning of the word “inspired” especially in the context of the thread topic which has nothing to do with the Baha’i faith? That is why I made that comment. There was no contextual reason to bring Baha’u’llah into the conversation. We are discussing Jesus and Moses.

My apologies Steve, I didn’t realise that when asked for my understanding of something, that the only acceptable response is to give ONLY a Catholic perspective.

Thanks guys, it’s been nice. I’ll stick to only Bahai threads from now on.

God bless

 

[eddie_too]

when someone uses another person’s words differently from what the author originally intended, you can be pretty sure that the people changing the meanings of the words are up to no good.

 

[Servant19]

If that’s a reference to me Eddie, show me where?

…I think a mistake is another option, but please show me where?

 

[eddie_too]

who was it that wrote here that the words of the gospels telling us that Jesus rose His physical body from the grave, appeared to, was touched by and consumed food with His disicples was not intended to be taken literally?

if the shoe fits, wear it.

 

[Servant19]

I have no idea what that has to do with the current dialogue here (???)

 

[SteveVH]

My apologies Steve, I didn’t realise that when asked for my understanding of something, that the only acceptable response is to give ONLY a Catholic perspective.

Not at all. But when the Christian definition of a word such as “inspired” is used with a different meaning than the one intended, then the conversation becomes meaningless. I told you what the Christian meaning of the word is so that the conversation can continue and you have chosen to just ignore it.

I certainly don’t want you to leave the thread. I just want you to be informed when you are using or discussing Catholic terminology. This would be akin to a Christian defining the term “Manifestation of God” and refusing to accept the Baha’i understanding. We may disagree as to the existence of “Manifestations of God” as the Baha’i understand that term but we have no right to define it for you. You certainly have the right to disagree that the words of the Bible are “inspired” within the meaning ascribed by Catholics, but at least acknowledge what we mean by the word and discuss it in that context.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Servant I see no responce from you as to whether or not the New testament can be trusted or viewed as an authoriative source in its entirety. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that Paul was wrong, the he had a bias in promoting Jesus as highly as he did (which is an obvious) but this isn’t the sort of thing I expect to see from someone who says their religion accepts the New Testament as sacred and authoritative but rather a skeptic. Paul Did promote Christ as Lord and God, too whom our grace is from to whom honour is due. That is precisely my point about the New testament in general declaring Jesus much more greater than Moses or any of the other prophets.

Do you accept these new testament concepts? Or do you reject them? Or do you think I have misread the new testament?

Lastly, I would have you clarify, is Mirza HUssain literally God the Father in bahai religion. When and if you say the “our father” prayer, do you have him in mind as the subject of that prayer? Clarify this for me.

 

[Servant19]

Not at all. But when the Christian definition of a word such as “inspired” is used with a different meaning than the one intended, then the conversation becomes meaningless. I told you what the Christian meaning of the word is so that the conversation can continue and you have chosen to just ignore it.

I certainly don’t want you to leave the thread. I just want you to be informed when you are using or discussing Catholic terminology. This would be akin to a Christian defining the term “Manifestation of God” and refusing to accept the Baha’i understanding. We may disagree as to the existence of “Manifestations of God” as the Baha’i understand that term but we have no right to define it for you. You certainly have the right to disagree that the words of the Bible are “inspired” within the meaning ascribed by Catholics, but at least acknowledge what we mean by the word and discuss it in that context.

Come on Steve, you’re trying to tell me that the word “inspired” is exclusively used in the Catholic/Christian religion?

You can’t use that context to compare “inspired” with the term “Manifestation of God” which I would never ask for a meaning from you (as a Catholic)

You asked me:

Servant, do you understand what the word “inspired” means in the religious sense?

…and I gave you my understanding.

Your response after that was unfair.

I’m not here to argue, but I see things for what they are. Again if my perspective on things is unwelcome, then please let me know and I will leave everyone to peace.

Again, my intentions are not to harm here. I feel cornered unfairly by many

For the record, I believe inspiration is different to revelation

 

[Servant19]

Servant I see no responce from you as to whether or not the New testament can be trusted or viewed as an authoriative source in its entirety. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that Paul was wrong, the he had a bias in promoting Jesus as highly as he did (which is an obvious) but this isn’t the sort of thing I expect to see from someone who says their religion accepts the New Testament as sacred and authoritative but rather a skeptic. Paul Did promote Christ as Lord and God, too whom our grace is from to whom honour is due. That is precisely my point about the New testament in general declaring Jesus much more greater than Moses or any of the other prophets.

Do you accept these new testament concepts? Or do you reject them? Or do you think I have misread the new testament?

Lastly, I would have you clarify, is Mirza HUssain literally God the Father in bahai religion. When and if you say the “our father” prayer, do you have him in mind as the subject of that prayer? Clarify this for me.

I’ll keep this short Iggy, because I think it’s not related to the thread.

I believe in the authority of the entire Bible. Some parts I interpret differently to you.

I believe Baha’ullah was the Person of the Father, and the Father has come to unseal the choice wine of religious understanding, and has unsealed the meanings of all the Books. It was He who sent Moses and Jesus, and it was He who gave the commandments to Moses, the inspiration behind the Bible and it was He who revealed the Quran to Muhammad.

I hope we can move forward now

If you wish to discuss this further, please feel free to start a new thread

 

[Servant19]

Servant, I would just like to point out that so-called “Jewish love” is NOT a love only for one’s fellow Jews and it NEVER meant that. It is a universal love for all humans, as well as animals and G-d’s creation in general. How individual Jews may have misinterpreted or distorted the meaning of love in Judaism is another matter; however, it is explicit in the Torah that moral values in Judaism necessitate loving and aiding all of humanity. Even one’s enemies are to be dealt with in a just manner and with restraint rather than undue force, including in times of war: the Torah emphasizes this.

And with regard to your original question, since Jews believe that the Torah contains EVERYTHING pertinent to how we all should best lead our lives, whatever Jesus may have added is believed to be really a more profound interpretation of what is already there in the Law. But it is NOT the final or ultimate interpretation since Judaism is a living religion subject to continuous interpretation of its Law.

Thank you for this clarification meltzerboy, I did not know this.

Do you have a link to assist me with learning more about this love that you describe?

 

[daisychain]

Hi. There are threads specifically for other faiths. You can check them out

MJ

Hi Martin.
Yes. The threads in the non-catholic section. Like this one…