What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[IgnatianPhilo]

I’ll keep this short Iggy, because I think it’s not related to the thread.

I believe in the authority of the entire Bible. Some parts I interpret differently to you.

I believe Baha’ullah was the Person of the Father, and the Father has come to unseal the choice wine of religious understanding, and has unsealed the meanings of all the Books. It was He who sent Moses and Jesus, and it was He who gave the commandments to Moses, the inspiration behind the Bible and it was He who revealed the Quran to Muhammad.

I hope we can move forward now

If you wish to discuss this further, please feel free to start a new thread

Now, insofar as we interpreting the bible differently I still don’t see an interpretation for the claims of the new testament in regards to the unique station of Jesus. Your previous text indictated that you dissagree on some level with Paul and the new testament.

Lets consider the unique role of salvation which Jesus alone provides as pointed out in hebrews.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. Hebrews 2:9-11

This verse would indicate that sanctification, salvation is through the suffering of Christ not any one of the prophets but through Christ alone. How does a bahai who seems to deny Jesus’s unique role in the salvation of everyone go on to exposit about this without denying it? For the bahai seem to maintain that people could be equally saved through Moses or Muhammad. This is not the position of hte new testament.

Now I am really convinced now you consider the Mirza Hussain to be literally the father but this demands absolute clarity for you bahai are by nature vague and indecisive. By person lets define, am I to understand you mean the specific entity which is called Father in the New testament that directed, guided, destroyed and created was Mirza Hussain? I ask for absolute clarification because at this point in these discussions with bahai it would seem that vagueness is the standard? When you pray to your God are you essentially worshipping the person who was Mirza HUssain? Please answer that question. When Jesus directed people to pray “our father,” was he saying to them that they ought worship the pre incarnate Mirza Hussain?

 

[doormouse73]

Now, insofar as we interpreting the bible differently I still don’t see an interpretation for the claims of the new testament in regards to the unique station of Jesus. Your previous text indictated that you dissagree on some level with Paul and the new testament.

Lets consider the unique role of salvation which Jesus alone provides as pointed out in hebrews.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. Hebrews 2:9-11

This verse would indicate that sanctification, salvation is through the suffering of Christ not any one of the prophets but through Christ alone. How does a bahai who seems to deny Jesus’s unique role in the salvation of everyone go on to exposit about this without denying it? For the bahai seem to maintain that people could be equally saved through Moses or Muhammad. This is not the position of hte new testament.

Now I am really convinced now you consider the Mirza Hussain to be literally the father but this demands absolute clarity for you bahai are by nature vague and indecisive. By person lets define, am I to understand you mean the specific entity which is called Father in the New testament that directed, guided, destroyed and created was Mirza Hussain? I ask for absolute clarification because at this point in these discussions with bahai it would seem that vagueness is the standard? When you pray to your God are you essentially worshipping the person who was Mirza HUssain? Please answer that question. When Jesus directed people to pray “our father,” was he saying to them that they ought worship the pre incarnate Mirza Hussain?

@ IgnatianPhilo
lol,he still hasnt answered the question.and these people have been on here to sure of there self in every thing they say to people and what they understand.yet they can not say yes or no,then go on to explain why. lolol

 

[daisychain]

SteveVH,
Can I ask about your intentions? Why are you posting on the non-catholic threads?

I second Servant on that terminology overlaps between various religions, so you can not really state that for example the word “inspired” only has an exclusively catholic meaning to it. We all have our own interpretations.

If you’d like to only discuss aspects of catholicism, than probably the apologetics, catholic living, and other forum sections would be more appropriate. I think the non-catholic section is not the platform to proselytize. It would be more of an opportunity to learn more about other religions.

 

[doormouse73]

May I ask if I could be so bold. Are you a Bahai ?

 

[daisychain]

May I ask if I could be so bold. Are you a Bahai ?

I’m a catholic.

 

[MartinJordan]

Hi Martin.
Yes. The threads in the non-catholic section. Like this one…

Sigh.

MJ

 

[doormouse73]

Would that be Roman Catholic by any chance?

 

[daler]

When you pray to your God are you essentially worshipping the person who was Mirza HUssain? Please answer that question. When Jesus directed people to pray “our father,” was he saying to them that they ought worship the pre incarnate Mirza Hussain?

Ignatian,
. Here is the beginning of the Long Obligatory Prayer (there is a choice of a Short, or Medium, as well, said daily):

. “O Thou Who art the Lord of All Names and the Maker of the heavens!
. I beseech Thee by Them Who are the Daysprings of Thine Invisible Essence,
. the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, to make of my prayer a fire that will burn away the veils which have shut me out from Thy beauty, and a light that will lead me unto the ocean of Thy Presence…”

Do you see how we are praying to “God”, beseeching Him by the Daysprings of “His” Invisible Essence… ?

We are praying to God, my friend, and as no man knows, or can possibly know God, we beseech Him by “Them” Who are the “Daysprings” of His Essence.

We accept that Jesus appeared to mankind in the Station of “The Son”, and that in that Station we are drawn closer to God.

If we can accept that God’s Image is reflected at one stage in human history by the coming of One Who appears in the Station of the “Son”, we can also accept that at another stage in human history the coming of One Who appears in the Station of the “Father”.

Each of These Holy Souls appears in a human body, which tends to fool those whose focus is on an earthly being like unto themselves.

“Beholdest thou not the Son of Man seated on the right hand of power and might?”

So some whose eyes are fixed upon corporeal limitations see only another human, whom they think they have power over, take Him out and crucify Him Who is their Lord, and the Lord of all beings.

At another time there again are some whose eyes are fixed upon corporeal limitations and see only another human, whom they think they have power over, take Him out and riddle His body full of bullets from the rifles of hate and rejection, the body of Him Who is their Lord, and the Lord of all beings.

At yet another time, there are again some whose eyes are again fixed upon corporeal limitations and still see only another human being, whom they think they have power over, and imprison Him behind the walls of their own construction, persecute Him for 40 years, and still see not the parallel of Noah’s prophecy being fulfilled:

. “I will make it rain for forty days and forty nights”, and the very Revelation which was given for exactly forty years by the Tongue and the Pen of Baha’u’llah, though imprisoned, tortured, and exiled for forty years, passes over their heads as a cloud for their unbelief, the very veil foretold by Jesus, Who was to come in the clouds:

. “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking…”

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Answer my question clearly, is Mirza HUssain literally the father. When Jesus said the our father prayer did he have your prophet in mind? You are giving vague answers. Either he is or he isn’t. When you call him the father are you saying Mirza Hussain is the very cause of your existence, that he is eternal, that he is the greatest being imaginable. Don’t give your vague scriptures, give a concise and clear answer.

 

[daler]

. “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?” Jesus

. "Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit verily standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error. He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it.

. The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul." Baha’u’llah

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

. “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?” Jesus

. "Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit verily standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error. He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it.

. The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul." Baha’u’llah

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

This is why bahai are impossible to deal with, no clear answers. I did not ask for a text which could be interepreted any number of ways by any number of people I asked whether or not the bahai believe this man to be hte father Jesus spoke about it. Is he THE father or A father. Or will you continue to avoid the question?

 

[arthra]

This is why bahai are impossible to deal with, no clear answers. I did not ask for a text which could be interepreted any number of ways by any number of people I asked whether or not the bahai believe this man to be hte father Jesus spoke about it. Is he THE father or A father. Or will you continue to avoid the question?

I wouldn’t agree that “Baha’is are impossible to deal with”…

Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith answered the question some years ago in terms of prophecy…

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,” …

~ Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 93

For more detail see:

bahai-library.com/lambden_quintessence_greatest_name

and

bahai-library.com/mazal_comparison_christianity_bahai&chapter=4

 

[daler]

This is why bahai are impossible to deal with, no clear answers. I did not ask for a text which could be interpreted any number of ways by any number of people I asked whether or not the bahai believe this man to be the father Jesus spoke about it. Is he THE father or A father. Or will you continue to avoid the question?

Ignatian, dear friend, your answer is once again answered with precision and clarity, in the Words of Baha’u’llah Himself:

. “‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess.”

. In this very verse He answers your questions concerning His coming in the Station of the Father: " Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! "

. No plainer verse in heaven or earth can be clearer, nor more explicit than this heavenly verse uttered by the very Tongue of Baha’u’llah to mankind: “Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”

. Yet again, if you repeat the question, my brother, the answer must remain the same. The context of this verse lies in what is called “The Most Holy Tablet”, also known as “The Tablet to the Christians” which I shall again post the link for that you might find the answer to your question within the very context in which it is revealed to such as your very own self. It is addressed to you, and such as are like you, dear Ignatian, who struggle with the profundity of the appearance of the new Manifestation of God.

. Please, dear friend, take a few minutes to read and ponder and pray about this lofty utterance. It is not too long. It will make sense to you, though you find yourself in your current state of mind unable to accept it from the perspective you hold onto, but kindly read it in its fullness and then, if you are dissatisfied with the answer He Himself gives with perfect clarity to your question, please express your reasons for objection, and we will try our best to accommodate you further.

. Peace and God’s blessings be upon your noble soul, and honor and glory to your mother and father, and all whom you hold dear, my friend. What follows is the link for the Most Holy Tablet wherein appear the Words:

“Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

. Praised be to God in His Glory, shining from the Daystar of Guidance upon all souls!

.

 

[doormouse73]

Lol

 

[Servant19]

I was just reading this from Luke today doormouse

“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
25 “Woe to you who are full now, for you shall be hungry.
“Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.”

Laughter is not always the best medicine for some

 

[Servant19]

I think there were many who “lol’d” at Jesus and His loved ones 2000 years ago

I pray for you the hardest dear friend

 

[doormouse73]

I was just reading this from Luke today doormouse

“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
25 “Woe to you who are full now, for you shall be hungry.
“Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.”

Laughter is not always the best medicine for some

i find this in belly full of laughter aswel servant,because the main reason is , is that its like watching a tv show on Tv and the contestant knows the answer but cant spit it out,why?

btw qoeting Luke in a way you have tells me yuo like throwing up the afflicted flag,i will tell you like this you are not afflicted at all.you have had enough time to form a understanding,but you have not.maybe if the question would be answered it might.but until, i will have to say and continue to say you lot are funny. i have to think and act this way you see because if i took you seriously i would cry my heart out.

btw i was reading Mathew as you post to me …

Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

 

[Servant19]

i find this in belly full of laughter aswel servant,because the main reason is , is that its like watching a tv show on Tv and the contestant knows the answer but cant spit it out,why?

btw qoeting Luke in a way you have tells me yuo like throwing up the afflicted flag,i will tell you like this you are not afflicted at all.you have had enough time to form a understanding,but you have not.maybe if the question would be answered it might.but until, i will have to say and continue to say you lot are funny. i have to think and act this way you see because if i took you seriously i would cry my heart out.

I have no idea what this means…sorry

 

[doormouse73]

I have no idea what this means…sorry

maybe you will understand this better…

2 Timothy 3:5

Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

 

[Servant19]

maybe you will understand this better…

2 Timothy 3:5

Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

From my humble perspective, appearing to be godly, loving and caring is better than not being loving at all …

You are welcome to avoid the Baha’is. We do genuinely love you, your actions and words are not the real you, we can overlook these things

God bless you

(For the record, I have NO DOUBT that the loving words of daler towards Iggy were absolutely genuine)