What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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PRmerger said:
Hell, which is what we deserve without the atoning death of Christ.
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Thankyou PR, so if we Jesus had not come and without His atoning death, we would all be in Hell?

Does this therefore mean that all people who lived before Jesus were in Hell, upon death, including Abraham?
 
Servant19 said:
Sorry openmind, but that’s quite close-minded 😃

Its not what we “believe” Baha’u’llah is, its what was claimed by His predecessor and herald, the Bab, and later verified by Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah says that had the Bab not revealed so much about the station of Baha’u’llah, Baha’ullah Himself would never have gone so far in His claims.

It was the Bab who said that Baha’u’llah was the “Sender of the Messengers” and the “Revealer of the Books”…

To truly appreciate who Baha’u’llah is, we must study the life of the Bab and revel in His miraculous existence and Christ-like Ministry…
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I realize that Mr Bab and Bahaullah made some claims about each other and confirmed each others claims and then you (the followers) believed/accepted those claims. That still does not make them very believable.

I would much rather that you told me that the Bahai believe in the unity of religions, in the unity of humanity and stuff like that rather these fantastic and grandiose claims.

If a large portion of humanity someday accepted the Bahai religion as their own, then we can try and assess Bahaullah’s claims about himself, until then they just sound weird.
 
openmind77 said:
I realize that Mr Bab and Bahaullah made some claims about each other and confirmed each others claims and then you (the followers) believed/accepted those claims. That still does not make them very believable.

I would much rather that you told me that the Bahai believe in the unity of religions, in the unity of humanity and stuff like that rather these fantastic and grandiose claims.

If a large portion of humanity someday accepted the Bahai religion as their own, then we can try and assess Bahaullah’s claims about himself, until then they just sound weird.
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Openmind,
. I can certainly understand that initially all such claims of the Prophets of God sound “weird” at first, because they totally go against the norm, disturb the status quo, and shake the people from their slumber.

. What is it that made the claims of Krsna acceptable to you? Was His claim not grandiose as well, as you put it?

.
 
openmind77 said:
I realize that Mr Bab and Bahaullah made some claims about each other and confirmed each others claims and then you (the followers) believed/accepted those claims. That still does not make them very believable.

I would much rather that you told me that the Bahai believe in the unity of religions, in the unity of humanity and stuff like that rather these fantastic and grandiose claims.

If a large portion of humanity someday accepted the Bahai religion as their own, then we can try and assess Bahaullah’s claims about himself, until then they just sound weird.
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Its all well and good to simply state that “Bahai believe in the unity of religions, in the unity of humanity and stuff like that…” , but words like that mean nothing unless it is in actuality established and becomes reality.

The concept of unity of mankind has been around for millenia, yet it has not been established yet, why do you think?
 
Servant19 said:
Thankyou PR, so if we Jesus had not come and without His atoning death, we would all be in Hell?
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Yes.
Does this therefore mean that all people who lived before Jesus were in Hell, upon death, including Abraham?
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Yes. They were, indeed, in hell. They were dead and deprived of the vision of God–i.e. hell.

However, some were in a place in this hell figuratively called “Abraham’s bosom” where there was no torment or suffering.

From our Catechism:

Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell. Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. (CCC 633)
 
Servant19 said:
The concept of unity of mankind has been around for millenia, yet it has not been established yet, why do you think?
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I think, primarily, the reason is because people keep following lies rather than Truth.
 
PRmerger said:
Yes.

Yes. They were, indeed, in hell. They were dead and deprived of the vision of God–i.e. hell.

However, some were in a place in this hell figuratively called “Abraham’s bosom” where there was no torment or suffering.

From our Catechism:

Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell. Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. (CCC 633)
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Abraham was in hell for being the first to promote One God and to worship Him, and He goes to hell for it?

How is that reflective of an All-Loving God?
 
daler said:
Openmind,
. I can certainly understand that initially all such claims of the Prophets of God sound “weird” at first, because they totally go against the norm, disturb the status quo, and shake the people from their slumber.

. What is it that made the claims of Krsna acceptable to you? Was His claim not grandiose as well, as you put it?

.
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Nobody goes around spreading this claim of the divinity Krishna (especially on someone else’s forum)… Krishna has hundreds of millions of devotees without any such active promotion needed. I personally have absolutely no intention or need of convincing anyone of any claim of the status of Krishna.

On the other hand you guys seem desperate to promote this ridiculous claim. Also, I don’'t know of anyone else who has claimed to be the ‘Father’ (of whom exactly, Jesus?).
 
Servant19 said:
Like the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland? Are they following a lie?
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What Catholics and what Protestants in Northern Ireland? The ones who are killing each other?

Do you really need me to answer that?

Or do you think it’s a truth that people are supposed to murder each other over political and religious differences?
 
Servant19 said:
Abraham was in hell for being the first to promote One God and to worship Him, and He goes to hell for it?

How is that reflective of an All-Loving God?
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Without understanding the Faith that has been passed down by the Apostles who died for the Love of God, Im not surprised by such confusion.

Spend less time in CAF and go for RCIA.

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
Abraham was in hell for being the first to promote One God and to worship Him, and He goes to hell for it?
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You asked what Jesus accomplished that Moses didn’t.

This is the answer.
How is that reflective of an All-Loving God?
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😃

I’m pretty sure that sending one’s Son to give His Life so Abraham could enjoy the Beatific Vision is quite loving.
 
Servant19 said:
Abraham was in hell **for being the first to promote One God and to worship Him, **and He goes to hell for it?
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Incidentally, Servant, that’s not the reason Abraham was in hell.

Do you know why he was in hell, according to Catholicism?
 
MartinJordan said:
Without understanding the Faith that has been passed down by the Apostles who died for the Love of God, Im not surprised by such confusion.

Spend less time in CAF and go for RCIA.

MJ
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😃
I actually think I would drive the RCIA facilitators bananas! LOL

The first question I would ask is “Why did God create a creation whereby a saintly man such as Abraham goes to Hell, (ok not hell, lets say He is deprived of the beauty of God) and yet the “interesting” (to put it lightly) souls of post-Christ history are all enabled to see the beauty of God in all its glory?”
 
Servant19 said:
😃
I actually think I would drive the RCIA facilitators bananas! LOL
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Not really. Those there will probably pray for you instead. 🙂
The first question I would ask is “Why did God create a creation whereby a saintly man such as Abraham goes to Hell, (ok not hell, lets say He is deprived of the beauty of God) and yet the “interesting” (to put it lightly) souls of post-Christ history are all enabled to see the beauty of God in all its glory?”
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Yes. That’s actually true.

MJ
 
PRmerger said:
What Catholics and what Protestants in Northern Ireland? The ones who are killing each other?

Do you really need me to answer that?

Or do you think it’s a truth that people are supposed to murder each other over political and religious differences?
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Of course its not truth PR, yet none of these people are going to Hell it seems…

…and this is rational?

Either way, why is it that there is no application of Jesus’ most fundamental teachings in todays modern world by some of His most staunch adherents?
 
openmind77 said:
Nobody goes around spreading this claim of the divinity Krishna (especially on someone else’s forum)… Krishna has hundreds of millions of devotees without any such active promotion needed. I personally have absolutely no intention or need of convincing anyone of any claim of the status of Krishna.

On the other hand you guys seem desperate to promote this ridiculous claim. Also, I don’'t know of anyone else who has claimed to be the ‘Father’ (of whom exactly, Jesus?).
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Open mind,
. I’m not sure if you understand me. I came to believe in Krsna well over thirty years ago, before I was a Baha’i. That was part of my path. Having been born into Christianity, seeing the Viet Nam War, the race riots, life on the Indian reservation and all, I began a search for truth.

. That took me into studying Buddhism and Hindu beliefs, Native American, and Islam, all back in the '70s. For me, this broad foundation is what enabled me to be “openminded” enough to finally come to realize that the foundations of all religion are rooted in the same One God, whether we call Him God, Gott, Allah, Brahma, Jehovah, or the Great Spirit.

. This is fairly common among Baha’is, to whatever varying degree, having been born into one religion or another, then seeing what others had in common, and finally somehow coming to the conclusion that indeed, what Jesus brought was more of the same Light that Moses, Krsna, and Buddha brought. Do you follow? Just somehow trying to keep on track of the thread while commenting constructively and sharing what seems relevant.

. I think its great, by the way, that you are Hindu, and here on a Catholic Forum talking about this stuff. God bless the folks who host and manage this whole sight and allowing people to come and talk about all these subjects.

. Humanity comes from a whole lot of different traditions, and somehow we’ve gotta make room for everybody somewhere… 😉

.
 
PJM said:
Jacob wrestled with an Angel; not God:)
From haydocks Commentary:
“Ver. 24. A man, &c. This was an angel in human shape, as we learn from Osee xii. 4. He is called God, ver. 28 and 30, because he represented the person of the Son of God. This wrestling, in which Jacob, assisted by God, was a match for an angel, was so ordered, (Ver. 28.) that he might learn by this experiment of the divine assistance, that neither Esau, nor any other man, should have power to hurt him. It was also spiritual, as appeareth by his earnest prayer, urging, and at last obtaining the angel’s blessing. (Challoner) — The father will not refuse a good gift to those who ask him with fervour and humility. Jacob had before set us an excellent pattern how to pray, placing his confidence in God, and distrusting himself, ver. 9, &c. (Haydock)”

God Bless yo!
Patrick
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"30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:** “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

What does this mean if face-to-face with God does not mean that Jacob actually saw God?**
 
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