What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[daler]

"30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:** “For I have seen God face to** face, and my life is preserved.”

What does this mean if face-to-face with God does not mean that Jacob actually saw God?

I would have to think that what can be seen with physical eyes is still limited to physical reality. If he saw with spiritual eyes, perhaps this means that he “perceived” that God is real.

When we speak of the “Face of God”, what is meant by that? Does God actually have a “Face”? In one sense, I can accept this, in that the “Face of God” is beheld in the Face of the Manifestation of God.

If we speak of the Mouthpiece of God, it usually refers to Him Who is the Speaker of the Words of God and Who expresses to humanity that which God desires us to know.

Yet God remains beyond the sight of men, Unknowable in His Essence. That which we can know is revealed to us through His Prophets and Messengers, according to our capacity, but restricted to our limitations.

.

 

[daisychain]

I think, primarily, the reason is because people keep following lies rather than Truth.

??? Who is following lies? What do you mean?

 

[nmgauss]

"30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:** “For I have seen God face to** face, and my life is preserved.”

What does this mean if face-to-face with God does not mean that Jacob actually saw God?

It’s interesting to note that Moses wanted to see God face-to-face, but God said that Moses would die if that happened.

In the case of Jacob, even though he saw God face-to-face and lived to tell about it, he did suffer permanent damage to his hip through this encounter.

 

[PRmerger]

The first question I would ask is “Why did God create a creation whereby a saintly man such as Abraham goes to Hell, (ok not hell, lets say He is deprived of the beauty of God) and yet the “interesting” (to put it lightly) souls of post-Christ history are all enabled to see the beauty of God in all its glory?”

Because Jesus did something that Moses couldn’t do. And at the time of Abraham’s death redemption had not yet occurred.

That’s a pretty simple one, Servant.

 

[PRmerger]

Of course its not truth PR, yet none of these people are going to Hell it seems…

Is there some way you happen to know their eternal destination?

Either way, why is it that there is no application of Jesus’ most fundamental teachings in todays modern world by some of His most staunch adherents?

I apply it every day.

As do millions of folks.

So I am not sure who you’re criticizing, but as for “no application of Jesus’ most fundamental teachings”…well, that’s simply not true.

 

[PRmerger]

??? Who is following lies? What do you mean?

A bunch of folks who have been duped into believing, for example:

• -abortion is a woman’s right
• -divorce and remarriage is their right
• -their prophets are manifestations of God, after He Who Could Not Be Contained came and died for their sins
• -there is no such thing as Original Sin
• -women can be ordained
• -Jesus is a reincarnation of the archangel Michael
• -we should not worship on Sundays, but rather Saturday is the Lord’s Day
• -there is no hell
• -statues in churches are an abomination
• -they know who is in hell

 

[meltzerboy]

A bunch of folks who have been duped into believing, for example:

• -abortion is a woman’s right
• -divorce and remarriage is their right
• -their prophets are manifestations of God, after He Who Could Not Be Contained came and died for their sins
• -there is no such thing as Original Sin
• -women can be ordained
• -Jesus is a reincarnation of the archangel Michael
• -we should not worship on Sundays, but rather Saturday is the Lord’s Day
• -there is no hell
• -statues in churches are an abomination
• -they know who is in hell

Of course this pack of lies works well for Catholicism and, for the most part, Christianity in general; however, it does not work so well for other religious faiths, all of which can draw up their own list of lies. In that case, would you still say that the lack of unity among mankind has been caused by a “bunch of folks who have been duped” into false beliefs? IOW, do you believe there should not be religious differences on any of these issues, or even different religions in the first place? Personally, I like the fact that people have different views concerning religion. I think “unity,” if defined as conformity, can be dangerous, but if characterized as tolerance and respect for differences in belief can be worthwhile since this promotes unity. That does not necessarily mean that anything goes in terms of moral behavior, for there is a danger there as well.

I appear to be playing “devil’s advocate” on this thread, and, in truth, I believe I am, but only because I feel, in a sense, caught in the middle of the two sides in response to the OP’s question.

 

[PRmerger]

Of course this pack of lies works well for Catholicism and, for the most part, Christianity in general; however, it does not work so well for other religious faiths, all of which can draw up their own list of lies. In that case, would you still say that the lack of unity among mankind has been caused by a “bunch of folks who have been duped” into false beliefs? IOW, do you believe there should not be religious differences on any of these issues, or even different religions in the first place? Personally, I like the fact that people have difference views concerning religion. I think “unity” if defined as conformity can be dangerous, but if defined as tolerance and respect for differences can be worthwhile.

No, I don’t believe there should be any religious differences on any of these issues, any more than I believe that, say, people may have the right to declare, “I don’t see this as a circle! I want to say this is a square!”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I appear to be playing “devil’s advocate” on this thread, and, in truth, I believe I am, but only because I feel, in a sense, caught in the middle of the two sides of the OP’s question.

I always love your comments, friend, and read them with gratitude.

 

[meltzerboy]

No, I don’t believe there should be any religious differences on any of these issues, any more than I believe that, say, people may have the right to declare, “I don’t see this as a circle! I want to say this is a square!”

http://www.math.com/school/subject3/images/S3U1L6GLcircle.gif

I always love your comments, friend, and read them with gratitude.

Thank you, PRmerger. I return the compliment even though, or perhaps because, we disagree at times.

 

[Servant19]

Because Jesus did something that Moses couldn’t do. And at the time of Abraham’s death redemption had not yet occurred.

That’s a pretty simple one, Servant.

But before Abraham was, Jesus IS…so why would Jesus not show love towards Abraham for all His good work?

If I had an opportunity to reward Abraham for His loving, saintly and obedient work towards me, I would do in an instant, not have to wait in Hell for 1000+ years, thats pretty unloving.

 

[Servant19]

Is there some way you happen to know their eternal destination?

I have no idea who is, or has been in hell. You are the one who says that Abraham was in Hell. I think this question only applies to you

I apply it every day.

As do millions of folks.

So I am not sure who you’re criticizing, but as for “no application of Jesus’ most fundamental teachings”…well, that’s simply not true.

I think you forgot the reason why you are writing about this in the first place. Why has the unification of the human race been a vision for every religion and yet no advances have ever been really made? So much so, that “intra-religious” unity has never been even established. Why is that?

 

[PRmerger]

But before Abraham was, Jesus IS…so why would Jesus not show love towards Abraham for all His good work?

Because Redemption was necessary.

That’s what Moses couldn’t accomplish.

If I had an opportunity to reward Abraham for His loving, saintly and obedient work towards me, I would do in an instant, not have to wait in Hell for 1000+ years, thats pretty unloving.

Abraham has indeed been rewarded, Servant.

Were you under the misapprehension that he is in hell?

Also, if you were going to do this, why would you wait until he died? Why wouldn’t you, as God, simply make everyone see the beatific vision?

Why is your God making you wait?

How is what your God is doing to you any different than what my God did for Abraham?

 

[PRmerger]

I have no idea who is, or has been in hell. You are the one who says that Abraham was in Hell. I think this question only applies to you

You said that the Protestant and Catholics in Northern Ireland are not going to hell.

Do you wish to rescind this statement and now say you don’t know?

That would be the Catholic position, of course, so I would applaud you for coming to our side on this issue.

Of course its not truth PR, yet none of these people are going to Hell it seems…

…and this is rational?

Either way, why is it that there is no application of Jesus’ most fundamental teachings in todays modern world by some of His most staunch adherents?

 

[PRmerger]

I think you forgot the reason why you are writing about this in the first place. Why has the unification of the human race been a vision for every religion and yet no advances have ever been really made? So much so, that “intra-religious” unity has never been even established. Why is that?

sigh

Because some folks have been following a lie. They have been duped into believing the Author of Lies.

 

[Servant19]

Because Redemption was necessary.

That’s what Moses couldn’t accomplish.

Yes, so you keep saying, but your not answering my question PR.

Why would a loving Jesus leave Abraham in Hell for centuries, when He was quite capable of preventing it in the first place? He was either not loving, or incapable. Is there another option?

has indeed been rewarded, Servant.

Were you under the misapprehension that he is in hell?

No dear friend, I am fully aware He is in heaven now, but why put the poor fella through centuries of Hell? If I were Abraham (Lord forgive me for even suggesting), I would be feeling pretty unjustly treated.

, if you were going to do this, why would you wait until he died? Why wouldn’t you, as God, simply make everyone see the beatific vision?

Why is your God making you wait?

How is what your God is doing to you any different than what my God did for Abraham?

I am in a condition of beautific vision every time I pray my Long Obligatory Prayer, when I fast, during the 19 Day Feast (the Baha’i Last Supper) and when I selflessly serve my fellow man and accompany him/her to spiritual greatness through the methods outlined by Baha’u’llah

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, so you keep saying, but your not answering my question PR.

Why would a loving Jesus leave Abraham in Hell for centuries, when He was quite capable of preventing it in the first place?

My answer is the same as your answer to this question: why does God not show you the Beatific Vision right this minute?

Answer: you can’t have it until redemption and salvation occurs.

 

[Servant19]

You said that the Protestant and Catholics in Northern Ireland are not going to hell.

No I didn’t

Can you quote me where I said that please?

 

[Servant19]

My answer is the same as your answer to this question: why does God not show you the Beatific Vision right this minute?

Answer: you can’t have it until redemption and salvation occurs.

He does…I see it every single day of my life…

 

[Servant19]

sigh

Because some folks have been following a lie. They have been duped into believing the Author of Lies.

So who is the “Author of Lies” in the Catholic religion?

…and is he/she a different person to the “Author of Lies” in the Protestant religion?

 

[PRmerger]

I am in a condition of beautific vision every time I pray my Long Obligatory Prayer, when I fast, during the 19 Day Feast (the Baha’i Last Supper) and when I selflessly serve my fellow man and accompany him/her to spiritual greatness through the methods outlined by Baha’u’llah

Well, if by “beautific vision” you mean you get to enjoy a nice dinner at Ponderosa, then I can’t argue with that.

But what Catholics mean by Beatific Vision is the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

So I’m quite sure you are not experiencing any Beatific Vision every time you pray your long prayer.