What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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This is why bahai are impossible to deal with, no clear answers. I did not ask for a text which could be interepreted any number of ways by any number of people I asked whether or not the bahai believe this man to be hte father Jesus spoke about it. Is he THE father or A father. Or will you continue to avoid the question?
HE is THE Father Ignatian 🙂
Is that vague still?

He (Baha’u’llah) is the begetter of the Holy Spirit, and He sent Jesus to mankind …

“Give ear, O King, unto the Voice that calleth from the Fire which burneth in this verdant Tree, on this Sinai which hath been raised above the hallowed and snow-white Spot, beyond the Everlasting City; ‘Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful!’ We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh), on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendor of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth. Arise thou to serve God and help His Cause. He, verily, will assist thee with the hosts of the seen and unseen, and will set thee king over all that whereon the sun riseth. Thy Lord, in truth, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty.
 
HE is THE Father Ignatian 🙂
Is that vague still?

He (Baha’u’llah) is the begetter of the Holy Spirit, and He sent Jesus to mankind …

“Give ear, O King, unto the Voice that calleth from the Fire which burneth in this verdant Tree, on this Sinai which hath been raised above the hallowed and snow-white Spot, beyond the Everlasting City; ‘Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful!’ We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh), on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendor of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth. Arise thou to serve God and help His Cause. He, verily, will assist thee with the hosts of the seen and unseen, and will set thee king over all that whereon the sun riseth. Thy Lord, in truth, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty.
How can you hold this belief and claim to accept the authority of the entire Bible? Why would the Father have to have an incarnation when His Son’s incarnation was His incarnation!?
 
HE is THE Father Ignatian 🙂
Is that vague still?

He (Baha’u’llah) is the begetter of the Holy Spirit, and He sent Jesus to mankind …

“Give ear, O King, unto the Voice that calleth from the Fire which burneth in this verdant Tree, on this Sinai which hath been raised above the hallowed and snow-white Spot, beyond the Everlasting City; ‘Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful!’ We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh), on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendor of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth. Arise thou to serve God and help His Cause. He, verily, will assist thee with the hosts of the seen and unseen, and will set thee king over all that whereon the sun riseth. Thy Lord, in truth, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty.
How is the concept of “begetter” defined according to the Baha’i religion and is this the same definition as in Christianity?
 
=Servant19;11380381]Just wondering what it was that Jesus brought to humanity that was not already brought by Moses Himself?
What is the Catholic (and non-Catholic if anyone wishes to contribute) position on this?
Thanks and G-d bless!
I’m quite late getting into this conversation, so I’ll respond to the OP; not the more recent comments.

There are several highly signifiant points to make

[1] The Incarnation fulfilled OT prophisies of the Messiah: Man actually SAW God!

[2] What Moses accomplised was accomplised THROUGH God

What Christ accomplised was accomplished through Himself; WITH the Father & Holy Spirit

[3] Among the MOST significant differences are these three realities

[a] GRACE was now the factor for salvation; not just the “law”

** Man was able for the first time KNOW God; not just know “Of God” as did Moses

[c] Christ Instituted the SEVEN sacraments; 3 of which play critical roles in the meriting of ones Salvation:

Baptism for BOTH genders introduced a new level of importance for women as well as making it POSSIBLE for EVERYONE to become a “child of God.”

"Confession/ Reconcillation" actually permits Catholic Priest to FORGIVE all sins in Christ name and with His Authority. OT priest the sins were merely “covered over”.

Eucharist/ Catholic Holy Communion/ THEE REAL PRESENCE OF GOD/CHRIST IN OUR MIDST:thumbsup:

It’s a great question; perhaps a difficult one to comprehend for our non-catholic friends?

God Bless you!
Patrick**
 
HE is THE Father Ignatian 🙂
Is that vague still?

He (Baha’u’llah) is the begetter of the Holy Spirit, and He sent Jesus to mankind …

“Give ear, O King, unto the Voice that calleth from the Fire which burneth in this verdant Tree, on this Sinai which hath been raised above the hallowed and snow-white Spot, beyond the Everlasting City; ‘Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful!’ We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh), on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendor of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth. Arise thou to serve God and help His Cause. He, verily, will assist thee with the hosts of the seen and unseen, and will set thee king over all that whereon the sun riseth. Thy Lord, in truth, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty.
To claim that Bahaullah is the ‘Father’ is basically saying that Bahaullah is the Supreme God. In fact that Bahaullah is ‘Allah’ himself.

Do I understand this correctly? Maybe I am misunderstanding this, Because this is so ridiculous that I suggest you keep such a belief to yourself.
 
I’m quite late getting into this conversation, so I’ll respond to the OP; not the more recent comments.

There are several highly signifiant points to make

[1] The Incarnation fulfilled OT prophisies of the Messiah: Man actually SAW God!
In the OT, Adam and Eve walked with God, Abraham served food to God, Jacob had a wrestling match with God. Didn’t any of these incidents include seeing God?
 
In the OT, Adam and Eve walked with God, Abraham served food to God, Jacob had a wrestling match with God. Didn’t any of these incidents include seeing God?
It did not include seeing G-d because it is a core belief in Judaism that G-d cannot be seen since He is a spiritual Being. OTOH, Christianity believes that Jesus is G-d Incarnate, thus making Him visible. Or is G-d still not visible but only the human nature of Jesus; or else is the Being one sees in Jesus, G-d-made-human but without sin? I’m not entirely clear on the Christian belief or if it is a uniform belief among all (mainstream) Christians.
 
In the OT, Adam and Eve walked with God, Abraham served food to God, Jacob had a wrestling match with God. Didn’t any of these incidents include seeing God?
In ALL of the Genesis accounts I could search and find:

“to walk with God” meant to know and obey God. It was not a sight reference.

Here Gen. 3:9-10 confirm this:
“And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou? And he said: I heard thy voice in paradise; and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.”

Verse [8] where they hid from God’s “face” MANS God’s Presence.

John 4: 23-24 EXLPLAINS: “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.”👍

God Bless you!
Patrick
 
=nmgauss;11409790]In the OT, Adam and Eve walked with God, Abraham served food to God, Jacob had a wrestling match with God. Didn’t any of these incidents include seeing God?
Jacob wrestled with an Angel; not God:)
From haydocks Commentary:
“Ver. 24. A man, &c. This was an angel in human shape, as we learn from Osee xii. 4. He is called God, ver. 28 and 30, because he represented the person of the Son of God. This wrestling, in which Jacob, assisted by God, was a match for an angel, was so ordered, (Ver. 28.) that he might learn by this experiment of the divine assistance, that neither Esau, nor any other man, should have power to hurt him. It was also spiritual, as appeareth by his earnest prayer, urging, and at last obtaining the angel’s blessing. (Challoner) — The father will not refuse a good gift to those who ask him with fervour and humility. Jacob had before set us an excellent pattern how to pray, placing his confidence in God, and distrusting himself, ver. 9, &c. (Haydock)”

God Bless yo!
Patrick
 
Jacob wrestled with an Angel; not God:)
From haydocks Commentary:
“Ver. 24. A man, &c. This was an angel in human shape, as we learn from Osee xii. 4. He is called God, ver. 28 and 30, because he represented the person of the Son of God. This wrestling, in which Jacob, assisted by God, was a match for an angel, was so ordered, (Ver. 28.) that he might learn by this experiment of the divine assistance, that neither Esau, nor any other man, should have power to hurt him. It was also spiritual, as appeareth by his earnest prayer, urging, and at last obtaining the angel’s blessing. (Challoner) — The father will not refuse a good gift to those who ask him with fervour and humility. Jacob had before set us an excellent pattern how to pray, placing his confidence in God, and distrusting himself, ver. 9, &c. (Haydock)”

God Bless yo!
Patrick
Reform Judaism interprets this passage as not the guardian angel of Esau who is wrestling with Jacob, but Esau himself. I’ve heard Protestants say that it was indeed G-d with Whom Jacob wrestled. Perhaps it was Jacob’s own conscience and doubt, which was personified. In short, there are several interpretations in both Judaism and Christianity. If the angel represented the Person of the Son of G-d, however, why was this angel defeated by the assistance of G-d? OTOH, the angel blessed Jacob after the battle, so wouldn’t this point to G-d?

Methinks it may be time for another thread…
 
Methinks it may be time for another thread…
Hi Meltzerboy,

I actually think that this dialogue which reflects the comparative revelations and Persons of Jesus and Moses is actually for this thread.

I will post a link for continued dialogue of who Baha’u’llah is, and the nature of Gods progressive Manifestations and Revelations to humankind on another thread. The link to which I will post below 🙂
 
I’m quite late getting into this conversation, so I’ll respond to the OP; not the more recent comments.

There are several highly signifiant points to make

[1] The Incarnation fulfilled OT prophisies of the Messiah: Man actually SAW God!

[2] What Moses accomplised was accomplised THROUGH God

What Christ accomplised was accomplished through Himself; WITH the Father & Holy Spirit

[3] Among the MOST significant differences are these three realities

[a] GRACE was now the factor for salvation; not just the “law”

** Man was able for the first time KNOW God; not just know “Of God” as did Moses

[c] Christ Instituted the SEVEN sacraments; 3 of which play critical roles in the meriting of ones Salvation:

Baptism** for BOTH genders introduced a new level of importance for women as well as making it POSSIBLE for EVERYONE to become a “child of God.”

"Confession/ Reconcillation" actually permits Catholic Priest to FORGIVE all sins in Christ name and with His Authority. OT priest the sins were merely “covered over”.

Eucharist/ Catholic Holy Communion/ THEE REAL PRESENCE OF GOD/CHRIST IN OUR MIDST:thumbsup:

It’s a great question; perhaps a difficult one to comprehend for our non-catholic friends?

God Bless you!
Patrick

Patrick, dear friend, this is a wonderful post 🙂

I have some questions for you if I may, which I will address after doing some minor thread housekeeping 🙂
 
To claim that Bahaullah is the ‘Father’ is basically saying that Bahaullah is the Supreme God. In fact that Bahaullah is ‘Allah’ himself.

Do I understand this correctly? Maybe I am misunderstanding this, Because this is so ridiculous that I suggest you keep such a belief to yourself.
Openmind,
. The view is that God is infinitely above corporeal existence, not subject to egress or regress, and that no “direct relationship” ever exists between man and God. The “Mediator” is the “Manifestation” of God, through Whom God imparts His will through His Word.

. Sometimes I look at it like this. God is holding the microphone, so to speak, and in different times and places He fashions a “Speaker”, like a stereo speaker in one room or another, and addresses humanity through this means. Outwardly this “Speaker” takes on human appearance, but is always much more than anything which could be defined as human. That the Manifestations of God appear in human form is for our benefit.

. Further, I would liken Them unto a Pen in HIs Hand, moving totally according to His will and purpose. So if we look at the “Pen”, this divine Instrument, we see Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah appearing to “write” the Revelation of God as it comes down “through” Them to mankind.

. There are times when, for example, Jesus says: “These words are not my own, but the Father Who sent Me.” or " the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing". So “Who” is the Father?

. If we identify the “Father” as God, in one sense this is true, but as “No man can see God and live”, the One Whom we see can not be God. Nevertheless, as Jesus holds the position of “Sonship”, so too does Baha’u’llah hold the position of “Father” in this divine relationship between God and men.

. To get back to the topic, however, what Jesus brings that Moses did not is a greater amount of Spiritual Light to the world, like morning at 9 am compared to dawn, for example. Baha’u’llah, in a sense, is “high noon”, reflecting the very same Light as did Moses and Jesus, but in fuller measure, and in accordance with the prophecy of Jesus:

. “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear it now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, “He” will guide you into all truth.” So Moses brought some truth, like “1 and 1 = 2”, and Jesus brought more truth, like “3 times 3 is 9”, and Muhammad brought more truth, like “A plus B = C”, and Baha’u’llah has, building upon the previous foundations, brought us at this time “e = mc2”.

. All of these math teachers attended the same University and are equally qualified to teach math, but according to the stage and capacity of the students, none of them begin with calculus. We progress in our capacity, and they in like proportion, reveal greater problems for us to solve and teach us how, if we are willing to learn.

.
 
Openmind,
. The view is that God is infinitely above corporeal existence, not subject to egress or regress, and that no “direct relationship” ever exists between man and God. The “Mediator” is the “Manifestation” of God, through Whom God imparts His will through His Word.

. Sometimes I look at it like this. God is holding the microphone, so to speak, and in different times and places He fashions a “Speaker”, like a stereo speaker in one room or another, and addresses humanity through this means. Outwardly this “Speaker” takes on human appearance, but is always much more than anything which could be defined as human. That the Manifestations of God appear in human form is for our benefit.

. Further, I would liken Them unto a Pen in HIs Hand, moving totally according to His will and purpose. So if we look at the “Pen”, this divine Instrument, we see Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah appearing to “write” the Revelation of God as it comes down “through” Them to mankind.

. There are times when, for example, Jesus says: “These words are not my own, but the Father Who sent Me.” or " the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing". So “Who” is the Father?

. If we identify the “Father” as God, in one sense this is true, but as “No man can see God and live”, the One Whom we see can not be God. Nevertheless, as Jesus holds the position of “Sonship”, so too does Baha’u’llah hold the position of “Father” in this divine relationship between God and men.

. To get back to the topic, however, what Jesus brings that Moses did not is a greater amount of Spiritual Light to the world, like morning at 9 am compared to dawn, for example. Baha’u’llah, in a sense, is “high noon”, reflecting the very same Light as did Moses and Jesus, but in fuller measure, and in accordance with the prophecy of Jesus:

. “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear it now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, “He” will guide you into all truth.” So Moses brought some truth, like “1 and 1 = 2”, and Jesus brought more truth, like “3 times 3 is 9”, and Muhammad brought more truth, like “A plus B = C”, and Baha’u’llah has, building upon the previous foundations, brought us at this time “e = mc2”.

. All of these math teachers attended the same University and are equally qualified to teach math, but according to the stage and capacity of the students, none of them begin with calculus. We progress in our capacity, and they in like proportion, reveal greater problems for us to solve and teach us how, if we are willing to learn.

.
You guys sure write lots of words where a couple of sentences would suffice.

Anyway, your explanation just confirms my original conclusion - Bahaullah never understood the concept of the Trinity and neither do his followers.

Good luck with your delusions, but I would just stick to his teachings on life instead bringing up what he (or you, his followers) believed himself to be - because it all sounds grandiose and ridiculous.
 
You guys sure write lots of words where a couple of sentences would suffice.

Anyway, your explanation just confirms my original conclusion - Bahaullah never understood the concept of the Trinity and neither do his followers.

Good luck with your delusions, but I would just stick to his teachings on life instead bringing up what he (or you, his followers) believed himself to be - because it all sounds grandiose and ridiculous.
So did the claims of Jesus, my friend, to the Jews who thought they “owned” truth…
 
You guys sure write lots of words where a couple of sentences would suffice.

Anyway, your explanation just confirms my original conclusion - Bahaullah never understood the concept of the Trinity and neither do his followers.

Good luck with your delusions, but I would just stick to his teachings on life instead bringing up what he (or you, his followers) believed himself to be - because it all sounds grandiose and ridiculous.
Sorry openmind, but that’s quite close-minded 😃

Its not what we “believe” Baha’u’llah is, its what was claimed by His predecessor and herald, the Bab, and later verified by Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah says that had the Bab not revealed so much about the station of Baha’u’llah, Baha’ullah Himself would never have gone so far in His claims.

It was the Bab who said that Baha’u’llah was the “Sender of the Messengers” and the “Revealer of the Books”…

To truly appreciate who Baha’u’llah is, we must study the life of the Bab and revel in His miraculous existence and Christ-like Ministry…
 
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